Describe mental phases of static apnea (Beware, LONG post!)

[EddieP]

from Medical sciences (Naish, J. Et al)

Clinical box 13.21 CO2 levels and oxygen therapy The responsiveness of the respiratory centre and the central and peripheral chemoreceptors to variation in paO2 and paCO2 underpin the principles of oxygen therapy, particularly for patients with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) and chronically elevated paCO2 who may need long-term O2 therapy. In chronic lung diseases, such as COPD, CO2 retention occurs so that paCO2 is chronically elevated. The central chemoreceptors adapt to this chronic state of hypercapnia, becoming unresponsive to the elevated paCO2, so that the main drive for maintaining ventilation comes from the peripheral chemoreceptors, which respond to hypoxia. Patients with chronic CO2 retention who go into type II respiratory failure (see later) risk respiratory arrest if given high-partial pressure O2 therapy, which removes the main respiratory drive (low paO2).

So what I was saying is that whilst training is partially learning to deal with the feelings it can also physiologically affect the body to benefit longer holds. The reason that I used the example of people with respiratory conditions is that there is well documented evidence of this being the case.

 

[Drowned Fish]

That's very interesting, EddieP. In the example of the COPD, does it develop gradually? If so, the paCO2 levels must be raising steadily from constant normal to constant high. Does it happen so gradually that the body ignores the change whatsoever, and that high CO2 levels cause no extreme discomfort? If so, I can understand why tolerance training works.

It may be that I misread some of the more technical statements in the quote, but that's how I did understand it.

 

[EddieP]

I guess its a constant rising of the tollerance to a rise in paCO2, as COPD is a long term chronic condition. The patients do fight for breath, but that may well be due to low O2 aswell. I'm not an expert, only a medical student, if I can find out any more I will report back.

 

[Drowned Fish]

So the next big thing in apnea training will be walking around with throttle valves in our throat to keep a desired CO2 level?

But seriously, interesting stuff. If you find some studies regarding this, please do post it.

 

[Kars]

I've seen in a documentary that Patrick Musimu was breathing for a long time through a small ball pen cap (hole diameter ca. 3mm).

When I bicycle to my pool (60minutes) I often make it a sport to only breath through my nose as I race. Nice one it to get to a high pace and then reduce ventilation to nose only whilst keeping the high pace.

 

[Drowned Fish]

I think I'll try something like that. Breathing through the nose during "hard" exercise is not easily done, so that might do the trick.

 

[EddieP]

Although if you train "too hard" you will be easily able to hold till black out. This is especially risky for us beginners.

 

[Drowned Fish]

I would love to be able to hold my breath until blackout. It's only a question of safety measures.

Handling the CO2 levels after 20 seconds of empty lung dynamic apnea would be great too.

 

[kanthand]

I guess its a constant rising of the tollerance to a rise in paCO2, as COPD is a long term chronic condition. The patients do fight for breath, but that may well be due to low O2 aswell. I'm not an expert, only a medical student, if I can find out any more I will report back.

Would be awesome if you could check if the patients talked more of having strong headaches. And if so for how long?
For how long did the chronicial condition last on average as the mentioned signs of hyposensitizing to CO2 occured?
I remember effattah talking about the high chance of getting a serious headache when training CO2-tables due to the hypercapnia over longer time. I have experienced those headaches after a pool session with a lot CO2-dynamic-tables. A yoga position (basically having chin touching the chest) can help preventing it a bit.

I would love to be able to hold my breath until blackout. It's only a question of safety measures.
Handling the CO2 levels after 20 seconds of empty lung dynamic apnea would be great too.

Tryed to force a Black-Out in safe dry environment myself too. Just to get to know how it feels, what signs occure if there are any (its different for every person), get a grasp on personal limits... Like forcefully hyperventilating for 2 minutes and making a static hold but without success :/

Btw.: I am sure you know this just wanna mention, that training exhale dives will make you do better on them, but takes time away from your inhale dives and vice versa. It was somewhere mentioned here in the forums that your body adepts to whatever you do. Doing exhale and full inhale dives in your session will still bring the training effect, but the learning curve might be lower.

greetz

 

[Drowned Fish]

I'd like to get a rough grasp at my near-blackout response. I hope it's like 45 seconds of clear-headed euphoria. And perhaps santa comes early this year while I'm dreaming.

Anyway, actually I didn't know that empty lung training affects full lung performance? Are there some simple answers to that?

Logically I'd think that because of the nature of empty lung exercises total lung volume is not increasing as it does with full lung and more so perhaps rigorous packing because of stretching etc., but what about 50/50 full/empty? Is that like a golden middle way? It seems reasonable as think (simple thoughts that is) on it. We are all "blessed" with a max long term intensity level to avoid overtraining, so 50% empty would take out a 50% vhunk of that level.

I may be way off with my pondering, but at least I get to move around my grey stuff in my head so it doesn't crust.

Btw, excuse any misspellings. There seems to be some interface failure between my iPhone and my sausage fingers.

 

[kanthand]

I'd like to get a rough grasp at my near-blackout response. I hope it's like 45 seconds of clear-headed euphoria. And perhaps santa comes early this year while I'm dreaming.

Anyway, actually I didn't know that empty lung training affects full lung performance? Are there some simple answers to that?

Logically I'd think that because of the nature of empty lung exercises total lung volume is not increasing as it does with full lung and more so perhaps rigorous packing because of stretching etc., but what about 50/50 full/empty? Is that like a golden middle way? It seems reasonable as think (simple thoughts that is) on it. We are all "blessed" with a max long term intensity level to avoid overtraining, so 50% empty would take out a 50% vhunk of that level.

I may be way off with my pondering, but at least I get to move around my grey stuff in my head so it doesn't crust.

Btw, excuse any misspellings. There seems to be some interface failure between my iPhone and my sausage fingers.

I am afraid of not being able to make your neurons all too happy. Barely remembered a post that I did read month ago. Good thing was the search function to give you his explanation >:-D

http://forums.deeperblue.com/general-freediving/78598-exhale-diving-average-diver-2.html

 

[Simos]

I am no expert but I wouldn't overcomplicate things and I wouldn't worry about empty lung taking time from full lung etc especially for beginners. With empty lung you won't be training to tolerate as high CO2 as empty lung, so from that point of view if you are doing only empty lung then your full lung times might not improve as quickly as they would if you have been training full lung but you might get better at dealing with low O2.

Also for a beginner (or even intermediate), I wouldn't go anywhere near packing. It creates a lot more problems than it solves in my opinion especially if used incorrectly and you really don't need it and not worth the risk.

 

[Drowned Fish]

I am afraid of not being able to make your neurons all too happy. Barely remembered a post that I did read month ago. Good thing was the search function to give you his explanation >:-D

http://forums.deeperblue.com/general-freediving/78598-exhale-diving-average-diver-2.html

Thanks for the link. I wasn't able to do any specific searches with my phone at the time, but luckily you came to the rescue.

Anyway, I can see that I've got a long way to go before having even some semblance of knowledge of the latest training techniques.

 

[Drowned Fish]

I am no expert but I wouldn't overcomplicate things and I wouldn't worry about empty lung taking time from full lung etc especially for beginners. With empty lung you won't be training to tolerate as high CO2 as empty lung, so from that point of view if you are doing only empty lung then your full lung times might not improve as quickly as they would if you have been training full lung but you might get better at dealing with low O2.

Also for a beginner (or even intermediate), I wouldn't go anywhere near packing. It creates a lot more problems than it solves in my opinion especially if used incorrectly and you really don't need it and not worth the risk.

Yeah, you are probably right. I'm nowhere near my limit as of now, so it's probably just wasted energy thinking of a few percents lost here, a few percent gained there etc etc.

Usually I don't pack, but when I do it's only 3-4 packs to make sure that my lungs are completely filled. I'm not planning on competing any time soon, so as you say, there is no need. The risk is also a factor to consider.