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Discussion on hypothesized ancestral human cyclical ARC dive-foraging

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Arjen said:
I'd better not comment on this. I should not comment on this. I am going to try not to comment on this.
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Sensible comments always welcome.

Note that I did not say all treefrogs lack throat sacs, nor that all monkeys lack throat sacs, etc.

Humans have undergone:

a semi-amphibious water-surface-foraging phase (complete tail loss, enlarged throat sac, upright with face above water surface, common among hominoids) <20ma

and a semi-aquatic water-benthic foraging phase (throat sac loss, upright long-legged crouching, diving/backfloating, common among genus Homo) <5ma

and a tech-dependent pelagic foraging phase (cane canoe/papyrus raft/boat and basket/weir/net, harpoons, common among species Homo sapiens) <.2ma

FOTOBANK ???????? ??????????? JW00-8792
Lake Tana, Amhara, Ethiopia: fisherman at the outlet of the Blue Nile, the Abay - traditional boat - low-floating papyrus canoe, called tangwa - photo by M.Torres - Travel-Images.com

of course none of this means humans were not primarily a terrestrial species, there was no 'fully aquatic' phase in the time frame.
 
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I can't hold back any longer, I have to comment
wet said:
Humans have undergone:

a semi-amphibious water-surface-foraging phase (complete tail loss, enlarged throat sac, upright with face above water surface, common among hominoids) <20ma
Click to expand...
 

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Just to clarify how much the stupid burns:

The branching between what would eventually lead to modern amphibians and humans was about 340 million years ago. To say that humans had a semi-amphibious phase 20 million years ago is proof of total ignorance of every piece of evolutionary evidence there is.

What was happening evolution wise 20 million years ago? Well, that was somewhere between the split of what lead to the old world monkeys, such as macaques, guenons, langurs, baboons and mandrill, which scientists time at about 25 million years ago and the split that lead to gibbons, which is currently estimated at happening about 18 million years ago. At the split on 18 million years ago, we had in all probability already lost our tail, were arboreal, but not so extremely specialised as gibbons now are. The period where this happened was the early miocene, which had a warmer climate than we now have and was more wooded.
 
Arjen said:
Just to clarify how much the stupid burns:
Click to expand...

Sorry, I said sensible, didn't I? You're not able to comply?

humans had a semi-amphibious phase ...
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'semi-amphibian' as adjectival (descriptive), not noun (such as class Amphibian which is limited to frogs, salamandrids, caecilians). I thought people here would understand the rather obvious difference.

Note that this vehicle is not an Amphibian but it is amphibian.
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphibious_vehicle]Amphibious vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
"An amphibious vehicle (or simply amphibian)"

Are you confused about that too? Those vehicles are mechanical machines, not salamanders nor frogs.

What was happening evolution wise 20 million years ago?
Click to expand...

See Aaron Filler on Proconsul, Morotopithecus. He didn't mention the specific cause for tail loss (much time spent foraging hydrostatically) but otherwise he's about right. No arboreal animal completely loses its tail and fuses its coccyx. Hominoids lost the tail and fused the coccyx due to much time spent foraging hydrostatically, and nature selected for reduced thermal loss.


Hydrostatic foraging for surface floating foods -> complete tail loss, fused coccyx (as in frogs), enlarged throat air sac (again as in frogs).
 
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Is there anyone amongst the claimed 17,000 members of Deeper Blue that is interested in cyclical efficient diving and surfacing?
 
wet said:
Is there anyone amongst the claimed 17,000 members of Deeper Blue that is interested in cyclical efficient diving and surfacing?
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Totally and definitely! Unfortunately, although I read most of the posts, until now I learned absolutely nothing about efficient diving and surfacing. Will you start speaking about it now?

Or wait, perhaps yes, you did it in fact already - I have to eat a lot of beans so that I have a lot of gastric gases, and then I have to stare into the sun to get a photic sneeze on surfacing and try not to choke. And I have to backfloat in the meantime. Did I get it correctly? As far as I remember nothing else in all these posts was related to efficient diving or surfacing. Or did I forget something?

EDIT: ah I forgot that when I am grabbing the tag at the bottom plate, I have to click and hum to signal to the safeties and judges I am coming. I just hope Linda will not be the judge, otherwise she'll disqualify me for violating the surface protocol by doing extra signals that do not belong there. But I do not care because I'll provoke the photic sneeze, and get my vengeance in her direction (sorry Linda, I am obliged to face the judge, according the rules). And then I'll go backfloating again and cummulating my gastric gas.
 
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Maybe this thread should be re-titled 'Mucous and Freediving' - since it seems Wet is getting a little snotty.

For the record - I have no constructive contibutions to make to this thread, but am pleased to be able to do a little circuitous name-calling.
 
David, could you please describe the style our ancestors used when diving (efficiently)? I'd love to improve my DNF style, and since I suppose they did not use any fins, I guess I could learn a lot from them. Did they use breast arm stroke and frog kick? Was it more like Mullins, Bjarte, or Trubridge? Or closer to Sietas? Or did they use another type of stroke? Were their muscles and bones better adapted to the underwater swimming than ours? When not, then why?
 
David can you define what exactly you understand under the term "diving and surfacing efficiently"? You wrote it is not about the Aquatic Ape Theory. Is it about freediving? About humans? About primates? About mammalians? About diving of any animals in general? What are we allowed to discuss here actually? And why most of your posts and linked articles have absolutely no relation to diving, and even less to efficient diving (or surfacing).

Could you somehow summarize in just few sentences what are the basics of efficient diving and surfacing? I really only remember clicking and humming, photic sneeze, backfloating, and gastric gases from your posts, but find it rather poor help for really efficient diving. I am sorry, I do not want to denigrate your effort, but really did not catch anything else related to the efficiency of diving or surfacing. If I missed it, please try to repost it in some short and easy to read list.
 
That makes a grand total of 1 so far. Out of 17,000 claimed membership.
 
wet said:
That makes a grand total of 1 so far. Out of 17,000 claimed membership.
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Does it mean you are also not interested in the topic of "diving and surfacing efficeintly"? In that case I understand better why you practically never write about it.
 

Apparently they swam feet-first and sometimes used a cross-legged dolphin kick. I hope you can understand my reluctance to post this information, because people might use it against me in the next DNF comp...

http://forums.deeperblue.com/freedi...-cyclical-arc-dive-foraging-9.html#post751603
 
Out of 17,000 claimed membership.

hm. Silent majority I guess. Time to join them? click.
 
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Damn, and here I was thinking I was a real member!

Wait... does this mean the madness is over??
 
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Ohh, how I would love to see that. I would in all probability pay for it. It would be of Monty Python proportions. I'm picturing it in my mind already!rofl

Could we make this a new discipline? We could call it DBDK (Dynamic Backward Dolphin Kick) Please. Pretty Pleeeaaasssseee?
 
wet said:
Sorry, I said sensible, didn't I? You're not able to comply?
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As long as you are not, I feel not obliged to do that either.

If you are talking evolution, frogs and salamanders, we are going to use "amphibian" in that context and not as in "mechanized vehicle". You are twisting the definition of words again to suit your purpose. It gets very tiresome.

Further, if we lost our tale about 20 million years ago because of a watery lifestyle, for which there is absolutely no scientific evidence, than it would follow that we should find evidence for this watery lifestyle in gibbons, orang utans, gorillas, bonobos and chimps. We have a common ancestor with all of those that is younger than 20 million years.

Or was the tale loss the only thing that was affected by our watery lifestyle? Because if that is your argument, than you clearly have no basic understanding of selection pressure through a water environment and will have to explain why otters and beavers kept their tale and use it a lot. If you look around you in the water, you might notice that tales make an excellent means of propulsion.

And start with comparing us to other mammals and not to amphibians, reptiles and birds, who have split of from the mammalian lineage over 300 million years ago and can in no normal way be compared to us! The egg laying thing might give you a clue on that.
 
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I think you'd better not go back to backfloating after this. I think it would be wise to leave the water and the country immediately, change your name, have plastic surgery and built a new and anonymous life somewhere else and never get back into freediving. Otherwise there might be an accident. Remember, she is Italian.
 
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