Dive respons vs. work respons doing high puls training.

[baiyoke]

Might be discouraging... but on the other hand, like you mention, many other aspects are trainable... And really, everything is at the end of the day, in some sense, limited by your genetic makeup... If I would like to be a 100m sprinter, I can train and train and train.... but I can never run faster than my genetics let me... So we are all limited... (unless we start using doping, wich actually just creates another limit further out)...

Someone once said, "it's not about what you got, but what you do with what you got..." (a sexual reference I think ha ha)... And in this young sport, I think you can even get an edge on other more genetically gifted athletes, if you train smarter/different... Because there's so many unknown factors still... It kind of makes it more fun I think

 

[Kars]

I can do a nice static, 7' pb, a reasonable depth pb 65m cwt (limited only by training oppertunities), and in relation to my static a poor dyn, 150m. dnf 111m. I also can do a nice 16x50m - 12'41"

About a half year ago I started experimenting to find a solution. Doing fairly short 50m dnf dives, I noticed a quiet dramatic difference in vasoconstriction and narcosis effect when varying my dive style-focus.


In a normal dive, normal full breath (wo packing), I swim at a normal speed, focussing on streamlining and efficient swimming.

In an adapted dive, normal full breath (wo packing), I focus on keeping the BLOODFLOW as low as possible. I do this by starting slower, using the arms less, pulling and pushing with less strength.

After the first dive I felt a strong pulse, no vasoconstriction, no lactic acid, and it felt like I could do little more.
After the second dive, normal pulse, little vasoconstriction, lactic acid in arms, some in legs, it felt easy, and my mind felt much cleared compared to the first dive.

It was a very happy day, experiencing such nice lactic acid and vasoconstriction in such a short 50 dnf dive, of which the speed was not crawling slow either.


About a month later I tried a max, and it was only 5m short of my very old pb, and much more then any competition results the last few years. Mind you that for my work I need to do a lot communing by bike, 200km+ per week. Bicycling fast, it's high impulse aerobic training. In my opinion creating a high gas exchange bandwidth (WR). I agree with Aharon Solomons it's very counter apnea abilities. And I seek to get motorised transport soon.

I think people like me should dive like it was a static, with some very low intensity movements, reduce using the arms, keeping the bloodflow low. The preparation should be about slowing down HR, relaxing and focussing, and the first 20-45 seconds of the dive should be a near static to allow the bloodflow to drop (DR), and then maintain it there.

 

[baiyoke]

It reduces my max apnea distance, but I get it back fairly quickly i.e. within a month or two. At least that's what happened when I tried last year.

That's interesting... An indication that at least one should be aware before competitions, and also an indication for a periodization of training techniques (wich most toplevel athletes does anyway probably).

I can do a nice static, 7' pb, a reasonable depth pb 65m cwt (limited only by training oppertunities), and in relation to my static a poor dyn, 150m. dnf 111m. I also can do a nice 16x50m - 12'41"

Without much experience with 16x50 it seems to me that the difference DYN vs. 16x50 is even bigger (allthough in my mind anything around or over 150m DYN is "up there" and impressive). A 16x50 doing 47 sec. pr. lap is impressive to me...

After the first dive I felt a strong pulse, no vasoconstriction, no lactic acid, and it felt like I could do little more.
After the second dive, normal pulse, little vasoconstriction, lactic acid in arms, some in legs, it felt easy, and my mind felt much cleared compared to the first dive.

A very interesting post Kars... A strong indication that, weather or not the physiology behind DR can be conditioned, the strategi of a dive can be very important... Could you try this: Bring a small bowl and some ice - then after last inhale stick your head in the bowl with ice cold water for 10 or 15 seconds, and the do the dive right ahead in your slow-mode? Preferably without noseclip even, and perhaps even inhale a little bit water in nose

 

[Kars]

Some excuses At the moment I'm fighting a irritating cold, and have a lack of sleep and they'll see me coming with a freaky bucket and two bottles of ice. - But I like the idea so I may have my bucket with me and see if the lifeguard doesn't freak out.. My guess is that you want to see weather the DR is stronger with a cooled face In order to do so I need to do a series of dives, with utmost regularity, in order to notice any difference.

Also I still need to establish the ideal prep and swim intensity for my dnf and dyn.
Though I'm used to the no apnea preparation, to establish differences I need to discard the first dives, so the results become regular and comparable. I think it would be a great search project, but I also like to have a buddy to take the notes and times. Also a recording waterproof HR monitor could provide some insights, though HR is no certainty because the volume per beat can vary. Blood pressure, and lactic acid would be two other factors I would like to measure. Replacing feelings with numbers.

Let's formulate our search question.

How to have an early onset of vasoconstriction in order to have my muscles go into anaerobic mode?

What are the main variables?
- preparation
- amount of air
- workload
- swimming technique
- dive distance
- dive time
- environment
- equipment (compression suit, facial stuff)

In order to detect patterns I propose varying only 1 at one time.

I think workload is my main choice.

So I need to keep stable the rest and do a series with only workload variations.

Hopefully I feel much better tomorrow, and can go to the pool.

I'm thinking of doing 1'20" minute dives covering (2x25) 50m with various intensity. If I arrive before the 1'20", I need to do a little static at the end.



BTW I enjoy the no facial equipment thing, also I got rid of my neck weight improving comfort and blood flow to my brain. I'm working on my new suit adaptations too. When things are done and tested I'll make a report.


ps.

I'm pretty proud at my 16x50 time, very close to Peter Pederson's older record of 12'29". I would not have done it without the inspiring coaching by my Russian friend Igor Migunov. The CO2 headache was very present, and I faced a wall at 8 lanes, and that's where a good coach keeps you going. It took about 15 minutes for the CO2 headache to go away after completion.

 

[baiyoke]

Well, I had something much more simpel in mind: You know your body and feelings, so do what you did, when doing your previous "strongest DR yet"-dive... Preferably no-warmup though... And better do the static part in the beginning of the dive, since muscles need to work a little to actually get lactic at the end I think...

Btw, starting dives with short initial statics seems like the opposite of puls-training to me... DR has time to (allthough slowly) kick in... Perhaps I should try that in CO2 training, and see if it becomes less puls related, and more DR heavy... (what is that technique called by the way? I know a danish term, but forgot the english...).

 

[Kars]

aerobic (pulse) - anaerobic (DR). (aero I believe is Latin for air)

I'll do several dives, hopefully soon.

 

[growingupninja]

Kars, perhaps you could try this, if possible checking pulse or wearing a meter (it is awkward but I have worn a fingertip meter in a plastic bag taped around my hand)--do some 50's or 75's. Go super slow and see what your pulse is at the end (if it is below normal resting). If it is below normal resting, go super slow for the first half, then medium sprint the second half. Check pulse. See what the difference is.

From tests I have done on myself, in pool temp water swimming DYN, once I establish a strong DR, in the presence of water, it seems to be rather locked in, almost no matter what level of work I go to, and unless I have done several repetitions it will kick in while O2 is still 98%. However, even a moderate work level seems to delay my DR from activating in these conditions, so it is important to start slow if I want DR. End result is that for DYN I burn out a very long time before I am hypoxic.

Part of this test for me was concern with ascent tachycardia, which Seb and Eric seemed to feel could be dangerous and increase BO risk. On cold water facial immersion the result is much the same--after 30-60 secs in cold water, DR seems solid even upon exertion and or taking my face out of the water, provided I maintain the breathhold.

However, on DNF I have, both times I performed a max, surfaced hypoxic and basically in a mild samba that made SP barely even passable. It may be that I have a great deal more lactic tolerance in my arms from a lifetime of surface swimming and ringsports, but I also know my exertion level from the very get-go was necessarily higher than my super relaxed DYN exertion. I need a heavier weight and I will try to go super slow the first 50m or so to see if I can capitalize on DR in that case.

 

[baiyoke]

aerobic (pulse) - anaerobic (DR). (aero I believe is Latin for air)

I meant the excercise where you start with a static, and then proceed directly to a dynamic dive... Does it have a name? (In Denmark it is called "Pingo", because the crown-prince did it in a television documentary, and his nickname was Pingo as a navy-seal... )

 

[Kars]

I'm tempted to say FRC, but that also includes exhaling a bit (like passive exhale) before the dive. FRC stands for Functional Residual Volume.

Ninja, I'm afraid to say that I don't have meters for HR and O2. The only thing I have is an old D3.

Part of this test for me was concern with ascent tachycardia, which Seb and Eric seemed to feel could be dangerous and increase BO risk.

Maybe this it' because it's associated with aerobic performance?
I mean I have a high aerobic ability, and it's reflected in my static graph:

Notice the drop, and the gradual drop and the slow rise look very mathematical.
Now watch the rise in HR from the 2.27 point on, this apparently is something that happens to people with a high aerobic ability.

Here is a 60 static + 93m DNF graph:

As you see I manage to keep the HR low, with a static at the beginning.

 

[baiyoke]

I'm tempted to say FRC, but that also includes exhaling a bit (like passive exhale) before the dive. FRC stands for Functional Residual Volume.

Nope, FRC's a totally different thing... Let's just call the excercise PINGO: Static followed by dynamic = Pingo

I can't se the graphs/pictures, can you check it again, seems really interesting...

 

[growingupninja]

I'm tempted to say FRC, but that also includes exhaling a bit (like passive exhale) before the dive. FRC stands for Functional Residual Volume.

Ninja, I'm afraid to say that I don't have meters for HR and O2. The only thing I have is an old D3.

Maybe this it' because it's associated with aerobic performance?
I mean I have a high aerobic ability, and it's reflected in my static graph:

Notice the drop, and the gradual drop and the slow rise look very mathematical.
Now watch the rise in HR from the 2.27 point on, this apparently is something that happens to people with a high aerobic ability.

Here is a 93m DNF graph:

As you see I manage to keep the HR low, with a static at the beginning.

I can't see the graph but would love to look at them. I promise to try and upload some data of my own. I could probably rig up some way to video my pulse O2 meter and then use some kind of OCR software to capture the readout, which could then be easily graphed.

 

[Kars]

Well the adjusted graphs are on.

Graph 1
Circumstances around the static dive:
End of a 3,5 hour training session, dynamics, empty lungs to -5m, in a warm yakussi. (March 2007 dive)

Graph 2
Circumstances around the static - DNF dive: day was a day when I was not rested, had a bit low blood pressure, drank only water, ate 2 bananas, got up at 6:45, the dive was at 12:09. (September 2012)

Dive 2, 12:21, a short 10 minutes after the static-dnf, was another static-dnf, this time a 1'30" static + 50m DNF, done in a total dive time of 2'32", withe HR following a similar bucket profile, starting at 60, going to 46 (@42") then going to 50 (@50").

Dive 3, 12:31 was a DNF-static-DNF dive. 25m, 30", 25m.
HR start at 84, goes SLOWLY down to 80 at 30", then drops to 67 @ 38 (turn + static), then keeps steadily dropping until dive ends, 50 @ 100" / 1'40"

I still need to put dive 2 and 3 in a spreadsheet, but I think it shows a trend.

After this testing day my coach and I found out that the Suunto HR monitor was taking in water, so doing some more tests need to be accompanied by some creative sealing work.

 

[growingupninja]

Kars, I just now looked at the first two graphs. They are the only ones that show up (thanks btw those are really neat). Was your resting HR around 55bpm at the time?

Interesting, I saw a the slight rise at 2:35 like you mentioned, although it is very slight.

I feel like if I were performing similar tests in pool temp water at the end of a solid training session my graphs would be similar--when I have tested HR and O2 sat on dynamic work in those conditions, I am mostly working aerobically by that point and HR responds more or less to workload, although muscles tend to be working efficiently from the standpoint of O2 consumed.

At this point, events where lactic acid is limiting factor for me (DYN), I do better with some WU. Events like STA and DNF where hypoxia is currently a limit, I seem to do much better with very limited/no warm-up.

However, from tests I have done, initial workload seems to have a strong influence on my DR, in pool temp water/dry work. So far, onset seems to be suppressed by exertion, although once it is activated (bradycardia at least 10% below resting) my HR doesn't seem to particularly affected by moderate increase in workload. So for DNF for instance I think a safer, better balance for me would be to swim the first 30-50M super slow to let DR (vasoconstriction) activate.

My personal exertion/DR onset observation seems to hold true for DYN, although I haven't tested to limit or deep into struggle phase. Regarding DNF it is still just a theory and I have done no testing whatsoever and besides a few max attempts dont train it...

Kars, you state that a slight rise in HR once DR has been established is common of people with a high aerobic capacity. Is this ancedotal or do you have links to studies?

 

[Kars]

Before the dive, standing next to the pool in my triathlon suit my HR was about 80. I'm not sure about my HR at wakeup, but I believe it was around 60 at the time. Notice that I was tired and had too little sleep, 2 things that are bad for apnea.

At the end I was swimming much faster, perhaps that caused a rise?

Short and long dives are totally different to me. The short ones I can do 'forever' the long ones (If they are executed well) only once. I don't see much value in short dives, other then practising techniques.

A few weeks later I took the lesson learned and swam a 106m DNF, 5m short of my old pb, again not rested.. It was a dive where I started after a short 15-20 static, followed by very slow swimming. After a contraction just before the 50 turn, I sped up a bit, after the 75 some more, being surprised at 100, Just a turn and surface. I was a bit grey, but I enjoyed some nice vasoconstriction and a pretty clear mind. It was a pity the HR monitor was not on to record that one, but I suspect it mirrors the static-DNF of the above.

There are no graph's of dive 2 and 3 yet.

The idea that a rising HR from the first contraction on is an indicator of a (too) high aerobic ability comes from if I recall correctly Aharon Solomons. His logic was that I've trained my body to respond in an opposite way to low O2, it now favours increasing HR to supply O2 to the deprived muscles. I'm not sure I can revert it, but stopping all aerobic stuff is a beginning. So I need to get my motorised transport working and quit cycling fast 200km/week.

It's also interesting to see my dive times with various swimming reflects the maximum dive time of 2'34". I think this can use some improvement. Considering I've done longer frog flow dives, hitting even 5' consisting of doing a 2'30" bottom static, jumps an flying and finally a 3x 12m swim at the end. So I think I need to focus on getting my balance and buoyancy really tuned, and go very soft until some contractions, and then gradually speed up a bit.

Thankfully there is no speed limit in freediving

I agree with your conclusion: workload affects DR, mostly its onset.

 

[baiyoke]

Kars: Great to have stuff like the graphs, allthough the first one is a bit difficult to digest. The second is nice, but I've only had time for a brief look... What is your resting HR btw?

I got lost in your second post, reading all the numbers though. I'll see if I can digest it sunday, if not too messed up...

 

[growingupninja]

Kars, I can't remember if you have mentioned it before or not but perhaps you could also try less WU for disciplines where hypoxia is your limiting factor. I know for me--especially in pool temp water--my DR gets progressively less strong throughout a training session.

In my case aerobic fitness level doesn't seem to affect DR in any way. Then again, while I have always enjoyed a nice run I don't train regular sustained cardio/aerobic activity like biking or marathons. Only interval training.

 

[Kars]

Hi Ninja, I've quit Apnea warm ups entirely for years. Also for a big dive I try to avoid exertion of any kind, but I still have to bicycle 7km to my nearest pool.

I think Aerobic training does affect DR, if you consider vasoconstriction a part of DR.

Aerobic training increases bloodflow to the limbs, to allow them to perform at a high level in a SUSTAINED way. So when your condition improves (You can run longer distances without breaks) it means the bloodflow (circulation) has been improved.
How is circulation improved? Wider arteries and veins, more powerful heart, and perhaps even more blood channels.
Now I think muscles operate on a supplie-demand basis, so if there is too little O2 in the blood circulation the Aerobic operation is changed into Anaerobic. Due to Aerobic training I suspect the crossover point may have shifted also, the muscles can still obtain O2 and operate aerobically at lower saturation levels.

This is all my own wild speculation, and I would love to hear what other think of this, what parts are right, what unproven, and if there is anything to this idea.

 

[zag]

To contribute to this thread, which I am enjoying, here are 2 dives from yesterday's pool session which I took the time to record the results from. These are dive #s 6 and 7 in a set of 20.

Conditions: ~ 78*F pool, 1.5L water during the day, 600 calories of almonds and a chocolate Kashi bar 4 hours prior to the workout. This is on 6 hours of sleep the night before. I ran 4.5 miles at 4.5 incline and rate of 7.5 min miles immediately before. Max heart rate during that run was 179 bpm. I did a 30 min stretch/yoga session immediately following the run prior to the pool.

When I first got in the pool, before any apnea, my heart rate was at 78-82 bpm (coming down from the run).

Dive #6, Starting heart rate @ 54bpm...slow 25m apnea to the wall, heart rate at 51bpm...1min30sec static...heart rate drop to 41bpm....turn for slow 25m back to the other side...ending heart rate @ 48bpm - total dive time 2min43secs

2 min30sec breath up

Dive #7, Starting heart rate @ 52bpm...slow 25m apnea to the wall, heart rate @ 52 bpm...1min42sec static...heart rate drop to 44bpm...turn for slow 25m back to the other side...ending heart rate @ 46bpm - total dive time 2min50secs

I had some nice relaxed apneas following, none of which I recorded data on. I find that the hard cardio in intervals immediately prior to apnea gives me some great endurance in the pool with sustainable times. If I go to the pool without any cardio, I get cold much faster to the point where it forces me to leave the pool in under an hour.

Regards,
Zach

 

[baiyoke]

So you run just before you dive, Zag...?!

Interesting how both Kars and Zags HR rises at the end of a dive.

- I wonder if it's a general thing, or something relating to people doing a lot of aerobic work?
- Also, at the end of a dive, many people will use a bit more power, I wonder if that is the reason...

How does a static look for both of you, regarding HR at the end?

 

[Kars]

Baiyoke just Scroll up and you'll see my static graph, a very gradual increase from the lowest moment (just after first contractions) on. I don't have a graph of a static pushing to samba, so I don't know what happens there.

For the dynamic, its true I swam faster after the 50m turn, and still faster after the 75m.

Zach, interesting stuff, but not really improving of disproving the hypothesis. Please, with the same preparation, record:
1) fast 75m DNF.
2) Then 75m DNF with: a fast 0-25m , medium 25-50m and a slow 50-75m.
3) Then a 75m DNF Slow.

Thanks!

Another thing I wonder about is the use of strong arm push off's. I seem to benefit from softer arm and better leg use.