Guest viewing is limited
  • Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:

    • Join over 44,280+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
    • Participate in and browse from over 516,210+ posts.
    • Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
    • Post your own photos or view from 7,441+ user submitted images.
    • All this and much more...

    You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!

  • PLEASE NOTE: There will be forum downtime today (Thursday 13th May 2021) as we migrate to a new server and do some housekeeping!

Empty lung static personal best.

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

Your static apnea empty lungs personal best is:

  • Never tried.

    Votes: 12 10.6%
  • Less than 1 minute.

    Votes: 23 20.4%
  • 1:00-2:00

    Votes: 36 31.9%
  • 2:00-2:30

    Votes: 16 14.2%
  • 2:30-3:00

    Votes: 12 10.6%
  • 3:00-3:30

    Votes: 10 8.8%
  • 3:30-4:00

    Votes: 1 0.9%
  • 4:00-4:30

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 4:30-5:00

    Votes: 1 0.9%
  • 5:00+ :confused:!?!

    Votes: 2 1.8%

  • Total voters
    113

DeepThought

Freediving Sloth
Sep 8, 2002
2,334
410
173
42
I've started doing empty lung statics last week, dry in my case, no reverse packing.
I don't remember a poll about it and I'm interested to know how far people get on residual volume. NOT at depth.
I'm just training on it now, so no new PB attempted, but my old one was 2:45.
 

Michael

New Member
Sep 12, 2003
79
18
0
I do empty lung statics every morning before work. To save time, I reverse pack until I cannot pull up any more air. My PB on a full reverse pack is 1:00. It's the only way I am able to reach the limits of my O2 tolerance. On full lung statics, I usually stop because the contractions get too painful, and I have never felt close to samba or BO. But with empty lung statics, I can push it all the way to samba.

However, while my empty lung statics have improved, it has not translated into an improvement in full lung statics.
 

donmoore

New Member
Aug 19, 2002
958
154
0
60
Michael (non-DeepThought),
I think you hit upon one drawback of negative statics. Although they have many benefits, one of the disadvantages is they don’t help stretch lung capacity like holding with full, and better yet, packet lungs. I recently received a portable spirometer and have been measuring my FVC is just about every imaginable way. Sitting, standing, shoulders down, shoulders up, arching back, in the pool, etc.. The stretch of full lungs over minutes of time seems to increase my capacity much more than only holding it for a few seconds. This is noticed by an increase FVC on following breaths after a full lung static.

The hardness of the contractions is something too that in time gets better. It appears the muscles want to fight the increased pressure in the lungs, but as the body gets more used to it, it subsides. This is not to say I can pack to my max and hold a 5-minute static, but I can do it with fuller lungs now than I used to be able to.
don
 
Last edited:

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
487
173
Doing an inhale static with full, pack stretched lungs has a tremendous stretching effect, which is why I always do such 'uncomfortable' stretch statics in my warm up for static & constant weight. Last I heard Herbert was also doing 'uncomfortably' stretched statics in his warm up.

Concerning exhale statics, my experience is that most people do not exhale fully. Even without reverse packing, it takes a huge effort to exhale everything, and I'd expect to spend the better part of 10 seconds forcefully hunching over and exhaling.

Even leaving a small amount of air in the lungs has a dramatic effect on the time you will reach. Exhaling fully and forcefully, but not 'extremely' forcefully, gave me a pb of 2'51. Exhaling fully, and extremely long & forcefully drops my pb to 2'11 (or 2'19 with a samba). With reverse packing, I would probably samba around 1'40", and all these pb's are on days of 7'00"+ inhale statics.

I know Seb Murat said he managed a 3'30" full exhale static. I know Trevor Hutton said he once did a 4'00" exhale static, but it was not a forceful exhale.

Another VERY interesting test is this:
- Sit comfortably, without any special breathing, just a 'meditative' type passive relaxation, for several minutes
- You should notice almost no breathing (tiny, natural breaths)
- Once completely relaxed, from your 'neutral' natural breathing state, suddenly exhale all of your air, and forcefully exhale every drop for perhaps 8-10 seconds
- Hold your breath
- See how long you can go before you must inhale (it is almost impossible to B/O, but perhaps some of you still can)
- Once finished, rest for several minutes, with no deep breathing at all, and try again. You should probably improve on the 2nd and 3rd tries.

The longest I managed using this method was 1'15" before the urge to breathe was overwhelming. Contractions are almost impossible due to the totally empty lungs.

Here is another excruciating test which I now use as my warm up for static apnea:
- Using the same method as above, suddenly exhale all of your air.
- At the 30 second mark, pack 3 times.
- At the 40 second mark, pack 3 times.
- Keep packing 3 times until the lungs are full. It should take perhaps 4-5 minutes.
- You will probably start getting contractions around 0'50", and continue to get contractions until the end, meaning 4+ minutes of contractions.
- This test does not produce 'deep tissue hypoxia', but it massively blunts the breathing reflex, so on the very next apnea you can go for a pb

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 

DeepThought

Freediving Sloth
Sep 8, 2002
2,334
410
173
42
Thanks for all of you for your replies.

Regarding doing full and empty lung statics: I do both, alternating each day.
I do empty lung tables on one day, and full lungs short (and more intense) CO2 tables the next.
About packing for the full lung, maybe I should try, I'm just not very good at packing, and since I still have a lot to improve without packing, I guessed I should leave it for later.
About empty lungs, I exhale while laying down, and then do a few diaphram contractions inwards udayana banda(SP?) style to get rid of a bit more air, but I know that unless I'm crouching I'm not really empty, I just figured that the training would work just the same, even if I have a 100cc's more in my lungs.

Thanks for the excersize Eric, I'm defenitly curious. Would try that soon.. just have to work on my packing technic.

As for today... this is a resting day. :)
 

Will

Freediver
Jun 20, 2003
556
151
133
40
I think you hit upon one drawback of negative statics. Although they have many benefits, one of the disadvantages is they don’t help stretch lung capacity like holding with full, and better yet, packet lungs
This drawback to lung volume is balanced by complementary advantages. With a full negative you will reduce RV and become more comfortable holding at that volume. This will increase your pressure limiting depth (remember it is the ratio of RV:TLC that counts).
To get the most complete negative I sit cross-legged and slowly hunch over as I reverse pack 15-20 times, then sit up straight to lengthen the thorax, adding to the diaphragm introflexion and ribcage compression.
N.B. reverse packing, as I understand, is where you close your mouth & soft palate, then drop your jaw keeping your lips together. This brings air up from the lungs into the mouth cavity. Then shut the epiglottis and close your jaw back up, letting the air in the mouth cavity escape from between your lips
Negative packing is also a great way to practice the Fattah mouthfill!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: abdessalam

flyboy748

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2003
415
58
118
My best negative (forcible exhale, no reverse packing) was 2:00. I used to do these routinely to warm up for static as I felt a rapid blood shunt, much faster than from full lung statics.

I tried it with full reverse packing then sinking to the bottom of the pool, and 1:00 was really hard!

Eric, I'm gonna give both of those a try, thanks!

Great thread,
Aaron
 

naiad

Apnea Carp
Supporter
Oct 11, 2003
2,897
449
138
40
I find it almost impossible to do empty lung training of any kind - I don't know if anyone else finds it so difficult. I get a very strong urge to breathe within 20-30 seconds, closely followed by my breathing in uncontrollably! Despite having a dry static PB of 5:10, fighting the urge to breathe with empty lungs is beyond me.

Before I started serious training I used to stand on the bottom of the pool with empty lungs, probably for about 10-15sec. When I started freediving, I suddenly decided this was dangerous (I did it without a buddy!). However, I still did it sometimes, until I had a bit of a misadventure (it was not my fault, but it was still an awful experience).

One problem I find with empty lung training, even for a few seconds at a time, is that it makes me unable to do long statics for the rest of the day.

Eric, I will try the packing thing soon!

naiad
 
  • Like
Reactions: stevevidar

Billextreme

Grand Marshal
Dec 19, 2001
433
33
0
pb

My pb, with a forceful exhale is 3.21... I don't like static normaly, and this kind of training is taste of hell....

Bill
 

Bill

Baron of Breathold
Oct 17, 2001
1,805
332
188
81
>One problem I find with empty lung training, even for a few seconds at a
>time, is that it makes me unable to do long statics for the rest of the day.
Naiad
With so many divers using negatives, I suspect that you are talking yourself into this one. Why don't you give them another try? Before any diving or statics, I use them for a method to relax, lower my heart rate and help with the first contraction.
Get very comfortable and relax for a few minutes. Take a deep breath and hold it a few seconds with your lips only, slowly let the air out (5 seconds), keep your airway open and don't exhale, wait X seconds, exhale, inhale and do it again for 2X seconds. Adjust X to get the first contraction during the 6th rep (X, 2X, 3X....6X). When it works right, my heart rate will drop over 10% just before that first contraction.
This is way more comfortable than exhale statics.
Aloha
Bill
 
Last edited:

Pezman

We pee deep. Ew!
Sep 24, 2002
591
72
118
@Will


To get the most complete negative I sit cross-legged and slowly hunch over as I reverse pack 15-20 times, then sit up straight to lengthen the thorax, adding to the diaphragm introflexion and ribcage compression.

Isn't there actually a risk of literally spraining you diaphragm doing this? I have heard, e.g., of synchronized swimmers doing this kind of practice and getting pretty good injuries as a result.

Maybe just an urban legend, but it's the main reason that I don't do these kinds of stretches
 

DeepThought

Freediving Sloth
Sep 8, 2002
2,334
410
173
42
Originally posted by naiad
I find it almost impossible to do empty lung training of any kind - I don't know if anyone else finds it so difficult. I get a very strong urge to breathe within 20-30 seconds, closely followed by my breathing in uncontrollably! Despite having a dry static PB of 5:10, fighting the urge to breathe with empty lungs is beyond me...
Naiad, I had the same problem as you, I still sometimes inhale a bit uncontrollably at 2 mins or so (quite annoying). I guess that I just gradually got more tolerant of it.
Although you don't seem have this problem, I think it's a good example of how you just get used to stuff:
First few weeks that I ever tried doing empty lung dives, the deepest I got was maybe 1.5 meters (where the head is, diving head UP) mostly even shallower not being able to stay there for a full second before jumping up like I was kicked out of the water. Everytime I felt like an elephant with a really hot foot is stepping on my lungs (didn't have any lung injury, just bad feeling). But I just kept doing it occasionally, till 6 months later I was laying in the buttom of a 3 meter pool, empty lungs, looking up at the full moon distorted because it was raning. Since then the feeling has changed and I learned to like that feeling. You don't have empty lung dive problems, but that's just an example. I had (and still have sometimes) problems with empty lung statics as well. I do what I can, fail what I can't (as in stop the apnea), and it sorts itself out at the end.
 

Will

Freediver
Jun 20, 2003
556
151
133
40
Hi Pezman - I always work up to the stretches thus:

3 x easy diaphragm introflexions, no packing (uddiyana banda). Hold for 20"

3 x ribcage flexes: as above but push lower ribs inwards.

3 x negative exhales, starting with 10 reverse packs and doing 15 - 20 on the third exhale, hunching over during packing then straightening. Hold each for as long as possible without going into contractions (which can be painful in this state).

I didn't jump straight into these exercises, but have built up over months. I wouldn't recommend this type of reverse packing to someone who isn't very familiar with full diaphragm introflexion. Also, wait at least 4 hours after meals and don't do this exercise when congested etc.
 

naiad

Apnea Carp
Supporter
Oct 11, 2003
2,897
449
138
40
Bill and Michael, I will try again with the empty lung statics and see what happens. Everyone else on the forum can't be wrong! Bill, I'll also try the method you suggested and let you know what happens.

Eric, I tried the packing thing, and it was excruciating, but I managed to do a 5min static afterwards, so it seemed to work! It also proved that I can hold 3min of the most incredible contractions! I managed 4min with contractions starting at about 1:00, despite the fact that I normally don't get them at all.

Thanks for all the help

Lucia
 

DeepThought

Freediving Sloth
Sep 8, 2002
2,334
410
173
42
Originally posted by Will
3 x easy diaphragm introflexions, no packing (uddiyana banda). Hold for 20"

3 x ribcage flexes: as above but push lower ribs inwards.
Hi Will.
I'm familier with the uddiyana banda, but I don't understand what you mean when talking about pushing the lower ribs inwards. Maybe hunching forward?
 

Will

Freediver
Jun 20, 2003
556
151
133
40
Hi Mike,
They are exercises I developed for myself although a lot of people probably do them.
Example: Perform uddiyana banda (diaphragm introflexion after full exhale) and clasp your hands together tightly (fingers interlocked) pushing your wrists into the lower ribcage (tenth rib?). Now squeeze your elbows towards each other in a kind of bellows action, compressing your lower ribs.
You can also depress your sternum, or pull the lower ribs outwards.
These exercises increase elasticity, but must be approached very gently to avoid injury.
 

DeepThought

Freediving Sloth
Sep 8, 2002
2,334
410
173
42
I just tried it... scarry sh*t. :) I didn't know my ribs are so flexible. 10x, but I think I'll pass on that one for now - I just have no need for it. When I'll have a chance to go to some more serious depth, and meet my limitations I might. If your fingers are interlocked, you can also push the diaphram even upwards with your knuckles, like you do to someone when performing the Heimlich manouver.
I'll pass on that one as well, but just throwing another idea.
 

maltaspearo

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2003
147
20
108
50
i did 1:45 empty lung after reverse packing. but to be honest i did two minutes of hyperventilation before my try at empty lung dive. what i found very weird was if i could do 1;45 with empty lung how come i could only do 3;30 with full lungs and about four packs. thsi goes to shouw that when i am doing full lung statics i am now where near my limits. considering that with empty lungs i did 1;45. right or wrong.?
 
DeeperBlue.com - The Worlds Largest Community Dedicated To Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing

ABOUT US

ISSN 1469-865X | Copyright © 1996 - 2021 deeperblue.net limited.

DeeperBlue.com is the World's Largest Community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving, Spearfishing and Diving Travel.

We've been dedicated to bringing you the freshest news, features and discussions from around the underwater world since 1996.

ADVERT