Euro Zone Crisis - Europe/Europa

[Mr. X]

As much spearfishing gear is manufactured by or for Europe, the current machinations about the Euro is affecting all of us, to a greater or lesser extent. What can be done to improve the life of spearos?

 

[bobdonny]

Re: Euro - Europe

Get more spearo's into government

 

[basilisladias]

Re: Euro - Europe

Crisis affects everybody.... However I do not think the poll is relevant for indicating the solution to it.
European leaders (eh ....) should advocate an economic union instead of a mere monetary one. The way things stand now, bankers hold the strings and puppets (all the rest...) are just playing in their show....
PS1 Greek politicians (of course elected by the people...) have made serious mistakes but the implications of a default would spread around the continent.
PS2 Look at what happens to the US right now... The biggest economy in the western world. Should it be sanctionned as well for starting the crisis in its bank sector?

 

[podge]

Re: Euro - Europe

I say we should vote in Apneaboy as European President, and then we could blame him for the lot!martial:crutch
That or just say #-*^ it and go fall in the sea somewhere.

 

[ReefTroll]

Re: Euro - Europe

How long until the words "I told you so" come out of a few experts mouths regarding multiple countries using a single currency and its inability to function?

Heres a fact, if the US had to pay back all the money it owes around the world for its military debt alone it would have an economy on par with a 3rd world nation.

 

[vali]

Re: Euro - Europe

roumania and bulgaria are also in CE, but do not use Euro as currency
roumania [and i'm guessing bulgaria to] ar not only in CE, but in NATO alliance
i don't think that the economy is the single issue here
perhaps roumania isn't a strong economicaly speaking country, but is a strategic one [geographicaly speaking]...
and i think also that the problems within EURO COMUNITY are not necesalery linked ONLY to EURO space....
so i guess i would rather go fishing.

 

[Mr. X]

Re: Euro - Europe

Heres a fact, if the US had to pay back all the money it owes around the world for its military debt alone it would have an economy on par with a 3rd world nation.

Reminds me of that staggering news story about the US army's air-conditioning bill in Afghanistan each year: $20billion

BBC News - Today - US military's $20bn air con bill

I couldn't help wondering if they'd put the decimal point in the wrong place - even $20million would be an extraordinarily high amount. 20b is hard to believe or comprehend.

I guess "going for a cooling dip" is not a viable alternative (young British soldier kidnapped & killed going for a dip recently ).

 

[Mr. X]

Re: Euro - Europe

... However I do not think the poll is relevant for indicating the solution to it.
European leaders (eh ....) should advocate an economic union instead of a mere monetary one. The way things stand now, bankers hold the strings and puppets (all the rest...) are just playing in their show....
...

Good point, I should have provided a Federalization option, whereby all members of the Euro-zone (or perhaps all members of the EU) are run by a single European government, setting policy, taxes and laws.

I guess I find the idea so abhorrent *for Britain* that I've censored the possibility from my mind. But if the Euro-zone powers prefer to be governed centrally, then more power to them - just leave us out . Perhaps strange as I am generally a fan of the USA which is a Federation/Union of states. America is quite different though.

 

[Mr. X]

Re: Euro - Europe/Europa

My own preference would be for Germany to leave the euro-zone, or for the Euro-zone to split into two different currencies: one for the stronger economies & one for the weaker. Either way, Italian , Greek & Spanish* spearfishing gear, wetsuits and holidays should become more affordable, although depending on the option chosen, French gear/holidays may get cheaper (Deutsche Mark option) or more expensive (if it were to join stronger currencies rather than weaker ones).

[*Apologies, PIIGs should probably have been PIIGS - with the S for Spain in the poll. No offense intended, it's the phrase in common usage currently]

On the downside, German cars/tools/appliances would likely become more expensive (unless manufactured abroad) but Alfas, Fiats, Skodas & Ferraris (the chosen car of most spearos?) should get more affordable.

...The way things stand now, bankers hold the strings and puppets (all the rest...) are just playing in their show...

Yes , the bankers are milking us all dry by suckering the governments/taxpayers into taking on the costs of their mistakes. "Privatizing profits and socializing losses" :vangry

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privatizing_profits_and_socializing_losses"]Privatizing profits and socializing losses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Merge-arrow.svg" class="image"><img alt="Merge-arrow.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Merge-arrow.svg/50px-Merge-arrow.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/a/aa/Merge-arrow.svg/50px-Merge-arrow.svg.png[/ame]


For fans of Federalization, be warned - America has been there before:

"I have had men watching you for a long time and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the Bank. ... You are a den of vipers and thieves."

— US President Andrew Jackson, 1834, on closing the Second Bank of the United States

 

[Mr. X]

Re: Euro - Europe

Good point, I should have provided a Federalization option, whereby all members of the Euro-zone (or perhaps all members of the EU) are run by a single European government, setting policy, taxes and laws.

I guess I find the idea so abhorrent *for Britain* that I've censored the possibility from my mind. But if the Euro-zone powers prefer to be governed centrally, then more power to them - just leave us out . ...

Of course, Federalization in and of itself will make no difference. Economic policy would be developed centrally - but how would it be enforced? Greece & the PIIGS (& most other EU countries) would still need to cut back government spending, deficit (the over-spend each year) and debt (the cumulative debt so far).

Germany would still benefit from an artificially weak currency (making their products cheaper/more competitive - and so they will have to bankroll the endeavor) and the PIIGS would still suffer from an artificially strong currency (which makes their products and services expensive/less competitive).

To me, it looks like the Euro-zone grandees are blindly fighting for political goals while ignoring the economic truth. The "laws" of economics are like the laws of physics, incontrovertible. You can ignore them, at your peril, for a while, but they will still exert themselves. The phrase "re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic" springs to mind.

BTW I heard someone bring up my 2-euro-currencies idea on radio 4 this morning (must read DeeperBlue ). [Although he characterized it strangely, unnecessarily, unhelpfully and inaccurately as Catholic south v. Protestant north - thought we'd all got beyond that way of thinking.]. Unfortunately, he didn't think there was any political will to move that way (yet) - the grandees are mentally invested in the euro.

 

[Mr. X]

Re: Euro - Europe

Good point, I should have provided a Federalization option, whereby all members of the Euro-zone (or perhaps all members of the EU) are run by a single European government, setting policy, taxes and laws.

I guess I find the idea so abhorrent *for Britain* that I've censored the possibility from my mind. But if the Euro-zone powers prefer to be governed centrally, then more power to them - just leave us out . ...

Of course, Federalization in and of itself will make no difference. Economic policy would be developed centrally - but how would it be enforced? Greece & the PIIGS (& most other EU countries) would still need to cut back government spending, deficit (the over-spend each year) and debt (the cumulative debt so far).

Germany would still benefit from an artificially weak currency (making their products cheaper/more competitive - and so will have to bankroll the endeavor) and the PIIGS would still suffer from an artificially strong currency (which makes their products and services expensive/less competitive).

To me, it looks like the Euro-zone grandees are blindly fighting for political goals while ignoring the economic truth. The "laws" of economics are like the laws of physics, incontrovertible. You can ignore them, at your peril, for a while, but they will still exert themselves. The phrase "re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic" springs to mind.

BTW I heard someone bring up my 2-currencies/2-zones idea on radio 4 this morning (must read DeeperBlue ). Although he unhelpfully and inaccurately (mis-)characterised it as Protestant north v. Catholic south (surely we've got beyond that: there is a problem, it needs to be solved without bankrupting us all). Unfortunately he didn't think there was any political will to move that way (yet) - the Euro grandees are still mentally/politically invested in a single euro, come what may it seems.

 

[vali]

Re: Euro - Europe/Europa

oh!!!
i don't believe that you compared FIAT with SKODA!!!!!

 

[apneaboy]

Re: Euro - Europe

I say we should vote in Apneaboy as European President, and then we could blame him for the lot!martial:crutch

Mate, i'd sort out the world problems, there wouldn't be that many left to whinge about my policies

 

[podge]

Re: Euro - Europe

Mate, i'd sort out the world problems, there wouldn't be that many left to whinge about my policies

Aaarrrr Apenaboys democratic dictatorship, liking yer style.
I'm your man for bulk cheap ammo :martial:blackeyeroflrofl

 

[apneaboy]

Re: Euro - Europe

Aaarrrr Apenaboys democratic dictatorship, liking yer style.
I'm your man for bulk cheap ammo :martial:blackeyeroflrofl

Good to know. Do you stock anything in the 500 kiloton region?

Want to be finished before I go on holiday.

 

[podge]

Re: Euro - Europe

Good to know. Do you stock anything in the 500 kiloton region?

Want to be finished before I go on holiday.

only got my lunch that goes to the kiloton range

 

[Mr. X]

Re: Euro - Europe/Europa

I'm a little concerned that only 80% of respondents selected the "Don't know/Don't care. Would rather go fishing." option.

[You can select more than one option ya know]

 

[Mr. X]

Re: Euro Crisis - Europe/Europa

Listening to BBC Radio 4 last night the female correspondent described the Euro-crisis as like train wreck happening in slow motion (or was a car crash?).

Several pundits have said they are currently just buying time, not solving the underlying problems. Real sad (& somewhat surprised) to see Italy dragged into this too.

How much more money will they throw at this before facing up to the politically unpalatable reality, and the markets? All countries (inc. UK) eventually have to face the reality of spending at levels they can afford.

Germany leaving the euro would help lower its value to sustainable levels - but they are currently paying to prop up the PIIGS. (from the profits of their artificially cheap exports). Can't see, say, France wanting to take that on - but with a lower value it should no longer be necessary (at least on the current scale).

I still think the Northern Euro/Southern Euro idea has considerable appeal. Allowing weaker economies to devalue their currency to a sustainable level, while allowing the stronger economies prices to rise (making them less competitive). Over time, countries might move between the two if their economies change significantly.

I guess a third option is that some or all of the PIIGS simply return to their old currencies, which they can devalue as they please. I was surprised to hear a story about Ireland/Sinn Fein considering joining the pound sterling rather than reintroducing their own currency (43% of Sinn Fein voters want to return to Sterling standard… « Slugger O'Toole) - not sure what all the implications of that might be but good to see we are apparently on much better terms these days.

 

[bobdonny]

Re: Euro Crisis - Europe/Europa

Listening to BBC Radio 4 last night the female correspondent described the Euro-crisis as like train wreck happening in slow motion (or was a car crash?).

Several pundits have said they are currently just buying time, not solving the underlying problems. Real sad (& somewhat surprised) to see Italy dragged into this too.

How much more money will they throw at this before facing up to the politically unpalatable reality, and the markets? All countries (inc. UK) eventually have to face the reality of spending at levels they can afford.

Germany leaving the euro would help lower its value to sustainable levels - but they are currently paying to prop up the PIIGS. (from the profits of their artificially cheap exports). Can't see, say, France wanting to take that on - but with a lower value it should no longer be necessary (at least on the current scale).

I still think the Northern Euro/Southern Euro idea has considerable appeal. Allowing weaker economies to devalue their currency to a sustainable level, while allowing the stronger economies prices to rise (making them less competitive). Over time, countries might move between the two if their economies change significantly.

I guess a third option is that some or all of the PIIGS simply return to their old currencies, which they can devalue as they please. I was surprised to hear a story about Ireland/Sinn Fein considering joining the pound sterling rather than reintroducing their own currency (43% of Sinn Fein voters want to return to Sterling standard… « Slugger O'Toole) - not sure what all the implications of that might be but good to see we are apparently on much better terms these days.

Meh, whatever... viz in sligo was savage I got my priorities straight

 

[Mr. X]

Re: Euro - Europe/Europa

Heads in the sand, and the tide is coming in:

Euro-crisis, "what next?" scenarios:

1. Bottom-up Breakdown of Euro-zone
Greece leaves - re-establishes own (lower value) currency, its economy recovers as they can sell more cheaply (holidays, spearo wetsuits - albeit made from imported neoprene, spearguns, olive oil, etc). However, value of Euro rises. All remaining Euro-zone countries, esp. PIIGS (of PIIS?) suffer from decreased exports (although imports become a tad cheaper) as their price rises relative to other currencies. Also, Greece picks up some business from other Med countries by undercutting their increased prices (holidays, wetsuits, spearguns, olive oil ) with its decreased prices. -> Remaining PIIS start to falter in more difficult situation, collapsing like a house of cards. -> Only stronger northern economies remain in Euro-zone.

2. Top-down Breakdown of Euro-zone
Germany leaves Euro, re-establishes Deutschmark. Euro value falls, boosting exports of remaining countries, and allowing recovery. Deutschmark value rises dampening demand for German goods & services (possible side benefit for remaining Euro-countries, might sell more Fiats, Alfa Romeos, Renaults, Citreons, etc. instead of BMWs & Mercedes - but is that the same market?). If this is not enough de-valuation for recovery, other countries may need/opt to leave euro-zone - TBD.

3. Uncontrolled Breakdown of Euro-zone
Confidence fails. The markets (investors) withdraw funding as collapse looks increasingly lightly and, eventually, certain. Interest rates go up. Debt holding bank shares go down. Borrowers default. Bonds loose value or become worthless. Unorganized, forced break-up/down of Euro-zone (a possibility mentioned on BBC Radio 4 this morning).

4. Controlled Euro-zone split
PIIGS separate into a new "southern euro zone" of somewhat similar economies. Value of northern euro rises, reducing exports for Germany, France, etc.. Southern euro countries devalue their currency, value drops, increasing exports for PIIGs, allowing them to recover.

...or what? Some other scenario? (e.g. China/Germany bails out Greece for a few years, and/or buys Greek assets?).

Keep bailing?? The markets don't think so. French banks were downgraded today. Germans' increasingly unhappy about bailing out less responsible/successful economies & exposing their banks to foreign debt.