Euro Zone Crisis - Europe/Europa

[Mr. X]

I don't think Germany are making a land grab, they just don't want to pay more taxes (who does!) and don't want to bail out irresponsible countries/governements (who does!). They are in deep do-do - not as deep as France, and no where near as deep as the PIIGS - and need to find a way out. However, gaining power and influence might be a palatable consequence for them. They did sign-up for, and promote the Eurozone - knowing full well the consequences of allowing in countries, like Greece, which did not fullfill the entry criteria. Predictably they and France are now facing the consequences of their actions and inactions - and trying to get China to pick up their tab!

Several people have suggested to me that (a) Germany owes Greece for reparations/ resources taken during WWII and (b) Germany still owes the UK reparations from WWI. I have no idea if this is factually correct but, like I said, I've heard it more than once recently.

BBC Radio 4's Today Program interviewed some Greeks earlier this week - it was sad to hear. Although their elected politicians have been highly irresponsible over the years (as have ours). Understandably some are planning to leave Greece (perhaps for Germany/France/UK?) A guest on the program suggested Greeks withdraw their euros from banks and keep them "under the bed", so that if/when they leave the Euro, their savings do not get massively devalued.

[I mentioned the war once, no twice, but I think I got away with it ]

 

[bobdonny]

Seriously man, you gotta stop reading the tabloids!!
Whats going on is a worldwide phenonema, its just affecting different countries in differnt ways.
The worse affecting parties are the media!
Relax, it'll all blow over, and when it does... the meeja will have something else to write about

 

[basilisladias]

Hi there!
Politicians who were in power during and after the signing of the Maastricht Treaty are the first to blame: they have cheated, deceived, misinformed and they are still not telling the whole truth. We as peoples, have to draw our conclusions from their devastating practices and never trust them again. Although my country is on the ground and getting all the blame, I believe the problem is a systemic one: we have created a monetary union, without an economic one (see also the Argentina s eg). I would be more than happy to have a central finance minister in Europe (=austerity/control of public spending/reliable economy facts...) coupled with a social net for those in need. However, I cannot accept the collective responsibility principle, I do not want to have old men without health care and starving, 40% unemployment rate for the young, hard crimes rising and hitting mostly the poor, the decimation of the middle class. Hang the traitors, make the tax evadors pay, .... but do not struggle the whole society.

 

[Mr. X]

Hi Bobdonny,
I don't generally read the tabloids, at least not the red tops. This week I've been reading the Times, the Mail & the BBC website - some Page 3 eye-candy wouldn't go amiss sometimes. I listen to Radio 4 news morning & evening most days. I'll occasionally read the Telegraph or "Grauniad" and/or surf Sky News. Not the Independent (bad) or Express (nasty) though. I find it interesting to watch RT news channel occasionally too - they cover things the Western media never would, esp. the Keiser Report, he at least is holding the banks and Wall Street to account, in some small way.

Shortly after I wrote this:

I don't think Germany are making a land grab...

I came across an article by Simon Heffer of the Daily Mail (a history bod) with the opposite view: Germany's economic colonisation of Europe


Looks like he's been at it again today: Has Germany got the guts to save the euro?

Apparently Germany (& France) don't want to "print money" to get out of this predicament - as the USA & Britain are already doing, effectively devaluing the pound sterling & US dollar and causing inflation. (Russia Today claimed America, for the first time, funded the Iraq/Afghan war by printing money rather than raising taxes -- think about that for a minute). Germany say this is because of their history (in the 1920s: rampant inflation, worthless currency, poverty), somewhat understandable but they got themselves into this situation and can hardly expect China & the USA to pick up the consequences. Germany and France apparently have the means to sort this out themselves. It's a shame that more of the politicians that carelessly signed up for all this in the first place are not around to reap the consequences of their incompetence and haste.

Previously I wrote:

Some good news on the BBC R4 this morning. Ireland (Eire) are meeting their recovery goals ...

Unfortunately I was wrong. Apparently the above is an illusion (according to Max Keiser): because of the bank bail out, the banks are effectively charged a negative rate of interest (nice for them), so they borrow lots of money and then use that to purchase the Gilts (bonds) from the government(s) that were issued to raise the bail out funds Apparently that gives the (false) financial signals of an improving economy. They'll disappear up their own arses:

 

[Mr. X]

A colleague drew my attention to this explanation of derivatives: Easily Understood Explanation of Derivative Markets (In plain language, even a drunk can understand) [No offence to recovering alcoholics intended]

It's shocking but rings true, very true. I think you'll find it easy to see parallels with the current shenanigans in the Euro-zone and the preceding banking crisis in the USA & UK (and worldwide). We're not out of the woods yet, not by a long chalk .

 

[Kars]

Hehe, Basilisladias, thanks for your input.

I do not blame any people for their misleaders. Misleaders who's loyalty belongs to global organisations and an elitist religion.

Let me say that those misleaders really like obedient, docile taxpayers. To keep the situation like it is, crises are used to keep 'the people' (herd) following them to the next part of the long term business plan, of the tax farm some say. Yes there are plans, thousands of think tanks daily at work to cover every possible point of resistance, like a chess player thinks ahead many many moves.

Certainly many people feel dependent of the government (look the meaning of the word 'govern' and 'ment' up), and therefore are afraid to think of the possibility that misleaders actually are close connected to those that start those very useful crises.

Maybe we should stop wielding the gun around, forcing others to pay protection money. Maybe it's time to stop assuming depth that irresponsible, lying, misleaders have assumed. Maybe offer this World Bank and IMF 'our' irresponsible misleaders as the payment. You know the ones who in collusion with private banks such as Goldman Sachs cooked the books and promised these institutions you and your children will pay for this money Your country could have printed themselves. You solve two problems: the fictitious debt, 2 the criminal misleaders.

Please don't be fooled by the given options, the limited choice the people are supposed to choose from. It's like giving your children the option to go to bed in 30 minutes, or go now and have a 30 minute story read to them. As a parent you know you'll have them in both choices sleeping in 30 minutes by offering them this false choice.
Choosing the lesser of two evils is still CHOOSING EVIL.

 

[MartinTee]

A good friend of mine demonstrated the problem that has been happening within Europe, too bad im not one with words, but I do understand that its all fucked and some people will make a shit load of money from this.

What about getting rid of the monetary system? I want that as a voting option

 

[MartinTee]

Kars, You're so right with your saying, "Love Courage Water"

I have been finding myself using it a few times now

 

[Mr. X]

...Certainly many people feel dependent of the government (look the meaning of the word 'govern' and 'ment' up), and therefore are afraid to think of the possibility that misleaders...

"Misleaders" Like it.

The politicians no doubt consulted experts (pronounced: x-spurts), where "X" is an unknown quantity and "spurt" is a drip under pressure . My local council were advised by the last Government's financial experts to stash their rather excessive reserves in Icelandic banks:duh

 

[Kars]

"Misleaders" Like it.

The politicians no doubt consulted experts (pronounced: x-spurts), where "X" is an unknown quantity and "spurt" is a drip under pressure . My local council were advised by the last Government's financial experts to stash their rather excessive reserves in Icelandic banks:duh

They should have chosen the stock trading chimp, apparently more successful then the x-spurts.

(spoiler: Government can mean: to control the mind, mindcontrol :duh )

Now onto those politicians selling out your and children's future income to the international institutions. Can I say they are practising slavery selling people?

 

[basilisladias]

Hi guys. All those findings are valid and demonstrate exactly the way financial markets in conjuction with the political elites have led the people to despair. In order to have a breakthrough and return as soon as possible to a stability of the system as it stands, as there is no alternative for the moment, I believe that the public should demand:
1. Prohibition of the financial products that caused all this chaos: (ie derivative markets/ten years ago one could not market such products)
2. Impose a tax in all the financial transactions worldwide (all those billions of dollars changing hands with a click from a pc everyday). The principle of market self regulation and non accountability to any institution or nation is undermining the hardcore of our democracies.....

 

[Kars]

3. reinstitute responsibility to the decision makers, make them fully accountable, meaning they can loose everything and go to jail when they screw up. Corporation owners, politicians, share owners al get off with nice bonuses while the public get the insanely inflated bill in the form of inflation, tax, higher prices, lower service etc.

 

[Mr. X]

Radio 4 for discussing the increasing lack of democracy in current machinations. Replacing the Greek & Italian PMs with a banker and an EU bureaucrat without an election sucks but I guess that is parliamentary democracy. I was disappointed that the Greeks did not get to vote on the bail-out - it would have placed democracy front and centre, and would have galvanised Greek opinion, one way or the other. Had they voted against the bail-out, then much time and effort could have been saved and refocused. Had they voted for the bail-out, it would have carried the weight of the people behind it.

I can hardly believe that Italy is on/over the brink - it is such a productive country, and a very significant part of Europe.

 

[Kars]

I don't think they like people voting in the Soviet European Union, Some may just vote NO, like France, Netherlands, Ireland. If only the misleaders would truly respect their constituents...
Stalin said it well: it not who votes that counts, but those who count the votes.

Italy and Greece could be just as productive if only they did not have so many free loading mafia and corruption riding along on their backs. It's not motivating to have a business being shaken down by the legal and illegal mafia.

Reminds me of Poland where during WW2 the farmers were shaken down by 3 roaming and pillaging gangs: "the White's", "the Red's" and "the Nazi's". All of them killed the farmers if they knew the farmers had 'given' anything to any of the other enemy parties.

For the people it's a good thing there is no replacement for their labour, otherwise the parasites would replace us for a less resistant, less expensive worker bee's. Cyborgs are still too expensive, genetic modified human resources are closer within reach, but for now Chinese obedience will do. The GATT treaty helped the big ones to make that jump with the help of our tax money.

edit:
The debt nations have cannot be paid, it is not mend to be paid - like any African nations knows - , it's mend to subdue these tax farms to those that control the World Bank, International Monetary Fund and ultimately the Bank of International Settlements.

 

[spaghetti]

Radio 4 for discussing the increasing lack of democracy in current machinations. Replacing the Greek & Italian PMs with a banker and an EU bureaucrat without an election sucks but I guess that is parliamentary democracy. I was disappointed that the Greeks did not get to vote on the bail-out - it would have placed democracy front and centre, and would have galvanised Greek opinion, one way or the other. Had they voted against the bail-out, then much time and effort could have been saved and refocused. Had they voted for the bail-out, it would have carried the weight of the people behind it.

I can hardly believe that Italy is on/over the brink - it is such a productive country, and a very significant part of Europe.

In the italian case, a new government formed by a technical panel would be the best choice now, and there is nor real problem with democracy about that.

Italy is indeed a parliamentary republic: in our constitutional scheme, people elect the parliament, then the government is the expression of the parliament. We can change government without need of new elections, as long as the government is supported by a majority in the parliament, within the term limits of the parliament. Kinky, but that's it.

So if for God's sake Berlusconi resigns now, and a new government of technocrats gains the support of the parliament, that is all perfectly constitutional. And probably more functional than anything else to try to get our problems solved.

As for being productive, Italy's industrial GDP is indeed bigger than UK's and France's, so I don't think that our economy can be compared to the Greek or Portuguese economies.
Yes we do have a ridiculous public debt, but that's not a problem per se, it's the way it's being handled, the perception of risk that our public debt can inspire on the markets. And it's the political outlook that makes much of the difference.
When Romano Prodi resigned from Prime Minister three years ago, the spread between italian and german treasury bonds was 37; then when Berlusconi announced he was going to resign the other day, the spread had already reached a peak of 580, even if all the other economic fundamentals were more or less equal than 3 years ago. We say "il problema è nel manico", the problem is in the handle. Enough said.

 

[omega3]

Seriously man, you gotta stop reading the tabloids!!
Whats going on is a worldwide phenonema, its just affecting different countries in differnt ways.
The worse affecting parties are the media!
Relax, it'll all blow over, and when it does... the meeja will have something else to write about

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Burke


This is largely evident in a great many historic rises in power!

 

[omega3]

Shortly after I wrote this:I don't think Germany are making a land grab,

I came across an article by Simon Heffer of the Daily Mail (a history bod) with the opposite view: Germany's economic colonisation of Europe

Just back from a city break in Athens... Loved it.
Flying over Germany' pristine manicured countryside and close knit towns it appears there is absolutely no room for development/expansion.This appears to me to be saturated development.

Your reference to war repayments comes from the start of this saga.
This was where Germany' leader first publicly put Greece' finances on the spot and the response from Greece' leader was along the lines of " if you hadnt come along and taken all our gold we might not be in this mess".
The German leaders response was along the lines of "This (response) is not helping anything"

One area of evidence is that the Germans commotion over Greece' situation has effectivly destabilised the security of its bonds further. Calculated? I don't know. However the suggestion then by Germany' leaders to sell of some of its islands to pay the debt would suggest...quite possibly, and who could afford them?!!

It all looks reather simple really!

Was in Rome two months ago on a city break...loved it!

As far as any media publications TV etc. Take a look at the recent land grab in Libya. According to all UK media from top to bottom it would generally appear it was done by a ragtag military force with a few vehical mounted .50 cals !!!
Wow, they must be good to destroy an extremely well equiped/trained Military force!!


Very little mention of this...

Nato operations in Libya: data journalism breaks down which country does what | Datastore | News | guardian.co.uk




A smart person would not for a second believe any of these things are "for a greater good" or the like.

The only relevent question here might be, am I on the winning side?

 

[Kars]

The only relevant question here might be, am I on the winning side?

If you pay taxes, you're not.

 

[omega3]

That pretty much sums it up.

 

[Kars]

Some report about the G20:


[ame]http://youtu.be/Kr0woxsLMac[/ame]