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Extreme Dolfinism
- Thread starterREVAN
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
I think it may be fairly accurate to state that the reason some of the readers of this forum are upset with Spearo's comments is that many of his comments are worded in a way that makes it sound like he is providing a product review for Consumer Reports rather than beta testing experimental engineering hardware. Since he is new to monofins, he lacks experience which would make him unqualified to have credible judgments for such a review, and so his comments are viewed by many as rude distractions to the forum thread rather than useful public information.
Personally, I feel that it would have been more appropriate if some of Spearo's comments would have been sent to me in a private message rather than through the public forum. I could have worked with him to help him through his monofin learning curve, without dragging the rest of you through those distractions. However, I was reluctant ask him to go private with his comments as I thought that would basically amount to censorship. I have never tried to hype up DOL-Fins better than they are or tried to cover up the shortcomings, so I was reluctant to go there. Instead, I tried to redirect those topics to the "DOL-Fin Information Exchange" thread where they would still be public, but separate from this thread and not distracting to those who are not interested. This has not worked as well as I had hoped.
I am funding the DOL-Fin projects out of pocket and on a limited budget. At present, I am mostly relying on 'word of mouth' marketing to promote the DOL-Fins. This forum is probably one of the better platforms I have available for that, so it would be naive to say that bad-mouthing the product will not have a negative effect on it's chances of commercial success. Negative comments have a much stronger effect on public opinion than do positive comments.
We must all be mindful that this is a public forum and that the tonality of how information is exchanged on this thread can impact readers impressions of both the product and of the person making the comments. Information can be exchanged in a tonality that communicates "I found a problem, I'm upset, and I want retribution", or the same information can be exchanged in a way that says "I found problem, and I want to help you fix it". The later is what is expected from a beta tester, and it is generally kept private between the beta-tester and the product developer. Using the forum for what should be a private message is inappropriate and I think many people are reacting to a tonality in Spearo's comments that is communicating more along the lines of the first example. I think most readers are finding this to be unacceptable from a beta tester.
As for the broken fin tab; that is disappointing, but these things can happen during this part of product development. I had believed all the stress areas were covered and something breaking during normal use was not going to happen. I have substantial use on other units that have held up well for me. At present, I don't know if Spearo's fin broke under normal loads that would be found while freediving underwater or if it broke while doing something else more stressful to the part. In either case, I will look into this issue and address any deficiencies in the design and/or manufacturing process to assure the DOL-Fin products are as safe as they can possibly be. This appears to be a local stress-strain issue, and there is likely a reasonable solution that will get the program back on track without a severe redesign of the product. It is not as though the diving fin just does not work and needs to be completely reworked in order to function acceptably.
Clearly this will result in some delay before going into retail sales. At present, I don't have enough information to speculate if this will be a 6 week or more like a 6 month delay, but I will provide updates as information becomes available.
Personally, I feel that it would have been more appropriate if some of Spearo's comments would have been sent to me in a private message rather than through the public forum. I could have worked with him to help him through his monofin learning curve, without dragging the rest of you through those distractions. However, I was reluctant ask him to go private with his comments as I thought that would basically amount to censorship. I have never tried to hype up DOL-Fins better than they are or tried to cover up the shortcomings, so I was reluctant to go there. Instead, I tried to redirect those topics to the "DOL-Fin Information Exchange" thread where they would still be public, but separate from this thread and not distracting to those who are not interested. This has not worked as well as I had hoped.
I am funding the DOL-Fin projects out of pocket and on a limited budget. At present, I am mostly relying on 'word of mouth' marketing to promote the DOL-Fins. This forum is probably one of the better platforms I have available for that, so it would be naive to say that bad-mouthing the product will not have a negative effect on it's chances of commercial success. Negative comments have a much stronger effect on public opinion than do positive comments.
We must all be mindful that this is a public forum and that the tonality of how information is exchanged on this thread can impact readers impressions of both the product and of the person making the comments. Information can be exchanged in a tonality that communicates "I found a problem, I'm upset, and I want retribution", or the same information can be exchanged in a way that says "I found problem, and I want to help you fix it". The later is what is expected from a beta tester, and it is generally kept private between the beta-tester and the product developer. Using the forum for what should be a private message is inappropriate and I think many people are reacting to a tonality in Spearo's comments that is communicating more along the lines of the first example. I think most readers are finding this to be unacceptable from a beta tester.
As for the broken fin tab; that is disappointing, but these things can happen during this part of product development. I had believed all the stress areas were covered and something breaking during normal use was not going to happen. I have substantial use on other units that have held up well for me. At present, I don't know if Spearo's fin broke under normal loads that would be found while freediving underwater or if it broke while doing something else more stressful to the part. In either case, I will look into this issue and address any deficiencies in the design and/or manufacturing process to assure the DOL-Fin products are as safe as they can possibly be. This appears to be a local stress-strain issue, and there is likely a reasonable solution that will get the program back on track without a severe redesign of the product. It is not as though the diving fin just does not work and needs to be completely reworked in order to function acceptably.
Clearly this will result in some delay before going into retail sales. At present, I don't have enough information to speculate if this will be a 6 week or more like a 6 month delay, but I will provide updates as information becomes available.
Having done a fair amount of Beta testing - and even some that was not supposed to be beta but the products needed revisions - I agree with Ron's statements. I generally refrain from shredding any product on line - particularly when it is under active development. I certainly never post negative comments without first talking with the manufacturer - Beta or not.
Since Eric Fattah Pete Scott and Natalia Molchanova have been impressed with the Dol-fin - and Ron himself has some impressive accomplishments for a relatively new freediver; it is obviously a product with significant potential. My own brief use of one in Dean's Blue Hole also lends weight to this conclusion. It is a significant design breakthrough for monofins - no doubt.
Probably the most significant since the Hyperfin.
My first monofin was a waterway nemo. It hurt like hell and was exhausting to swim with. It took me several months to even begin to see the potential - and another year to finally get some decent chops with it. By then I could wear it painlessly for 6 hours because my feet had stopped fighting eachother - something that was inconceivable during the first few months. Even after all that I had a breakthrough that probably increased my efficiency by a full third. Learning curve is definitely not a viable complaint with these sorts of things.
From Spearo's review so far I understand that he has had a difficult time going from Bi-fins to a monofin - a process I can certainly sympathize with - and that there was a structural weakness in one component - probably a one-off materials defect - but certainly something you'd want to see brought out in a beta.
Since Eric Fattah Pete Scott and Natalia Molchanova have been impressed with the Dol-fin - and Ron himself has some impressive accomplishments for a relatively new freediver; it is obviously a product with significant potential. My own brief use of one in Dean's Blue Hole also lends weight to this conclusion. It is a significant design breakthrough for monofins - no doubt.
Probably the most significant since the Hyperfin.
My first monofin was a waterway nemo. It hurt like hell and was exhausting to swim with. It took me several months to even begin to see the potential - and another year to finally get some decent chops with it. By then I could wear it painlessly for 6 hours because my feet had stopped fighting eachother - something that was inconceivable during the first few months. Even after all that I had a breakthrough that probably increased my efficiency by a full third. Learning curve is definitely not a viable complaint with these sorts of things.
From Spearo's review so far I understand that he has had a difficult time going from Bi-fins to a monofin - a process I can certainly sympathize with - and that there was a structural weakness in one component - probably a one-off materials defect - but certainly something you'd want to see brought out in a beta.
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Sadly, my review of the DOL-Fin Orca was so overwhelmingly positive that many people considered it either fictional or a 'paid, biased review.'
In fact, it was absolutely truthful. Given that I have been using monofins since 1999 and have dove pretty deep with them, I would hope that my positive review of the Orca would lend some credibility to the product.
In fact, it was absolutely truthful. Given that I have been using monofins since 1999 and have dove pretty deep with them, I would hope that my positive review of the Orca would lend some credibility to the product.
I figured it was time to provide an update on the status of the DOL-Fins, so here is the latest.
I have not received the broken fin tab from Spearo yet, so there is still speculation on what the mode and cause for his part failure were. I think a defect may have been present in his part that made it more susceptible to failure, but that is only speculation based on the pictures he has posted to the forum. To me, it looked like the plastic had been overheated when the fin tab had been formed which may have weakened the material around the fin tab. I have sent him a replacement part and we will see if that one holds up better than the previous part.
To speed development along, I have been preemptively looking at reinforcement methods to simply increase the strength of the part. I have looked at several reinforcement concepts to date and have settled on the design shown in the attached pictures as my preferred design change. My present line of thinking is that I should incorporate this reinforcement into the design of the Classic and HP even if the evidence shows that Spearo’s broken tab was a part defect rather than a design defect. The reinforcement will be worth the assurance brought by increased part strength and rigidity of the fin’s structural supports. Also, the translucent reinforcements being applied to the outside of the base-plate, should aid in showing if a structural problem is forming with any particular fin, and to what degree. By providing visual feedback of the DOL-Fin’s structural condition, this reinforcement system should increase safety through visual inspection of the part before diving.
I have a lot of testing to do before this will all be ready to sell, but so far the test results have been encouraging. I’m hopeful that I can have things ready to go in the first quarter of 2011. As always, I encourage feedback from the diving community on the DOL-Fin designs.
Ron
PS – Unfortunately the Orca has experienced a setback as well. Some of the cutting dies I ordered (which were already a month overdue) were delivered recently. However, the manufacturer mixed up drawings between the sales office and the shop floor and they made cutting dies for the wrong part-numbers. This setback will also push the Orca production back into next year as well. I offer my apologies for these delays.
I have not received the broken fin tab from Spearo yet, so there is still speculation on what the mode and cause for his part failure were. I think a defect may have been present in his part that made it more susceptible to failure, but that is only speculation based on the pictures he has posted to the forum. To me, it looked like the plastic had been overheated when the fin tab had been formed which may have weakened the material around the fin tab. I have sent him a replacement part and we will see if that one holds up better than the previous part.
To speed development along, I have been preemptively looking at reinforcement methods to simply increase the strength of the part. I have looked at several reinforcement concepts to date and have settled on the design shown in the attached pictures as my preferred design change. My present line of thinking is that I should incorporate this reinforcement into the design of the Classic and HP even if the evidence shows that Spearo’s broken tab was a part defect rather than a design defect. The reinforcement will be worth the assurance brought by increased part strength and rigidity of the fin’s structural supports. Also, the translucent reinforcements being applied to the outside of the base-plate, should aid in showing if a structural problem is forming with any particular fin, and to what degree. By providing visual feedback of the DOL-Fin’s structural condition, this reinforcement system should increase safety through visual inspection of the part before diving.
I have a lot of testing to do before this will all be ready to sell, but so far the test results have been encouraging. I’m hopeful that I can have things ready to go in the first quarter of 2011. As always, I encourage feedback from the diving community on the DOL-Fin designs.
Ron
PS – Unfortunately the Orca has experienced a setback as well. Some of the cutting dies I ordered (which were already a month overdue) were delivered recently. However, the manufacturer mixed up drawings between the sales office and the shop floor and they made cutting dies for the wrong part-numbers. This setback will also push the Orca production back into next year as well. I offer my apologies for these delays.
Attachments
This pictured designed, with the fiberglass running all along and down the strut looks good also I see you implemented a change such as the dual bolts into the hydrofoil instead of one.
The dual screws for attaching the fin to the suspension straps are something that I’ve been experimenting with. I’ve been trying to find a way to do that without having to make expensive custom metal parts, and I’m hoping that I’ve found the answer. One of the cutting dies that I’m still waiting on is for cutting these custom dual screw washer plates from HDPE. My hand made prototypes have been performing well, and if the new cutting dies can make an acceptable reproduction, it should produce an affordable part to replace the single screw stainless steel fender washers I’ve been using.
If I can successfully integrate this into the production design, it will add to the design full redundancy of the fasteners. Also, the new fiberglass reinforcement running the full length of the side rails and wrapping around the mounting tabs adds a parallel structure for carrying the base plate assembly loads. The reinforcement ties into both the foot binding straps and the mounting screws for the suspension straps, connecting the two primary load transfer points of the part. So, this should also have redundancy built into the composite assembly of the part. Hopefully, these upgrades will all come together to produce a stronger and more reliable monofin.
If I can successfully integrate this into the production design, it will add to the design full redundancy of the fasteners. Also, the new fiberglass reinforcement running the full length of the side rails and wrapping around the mounting tabs adds a parallel structure for carrying the base plate assembly loads. The reinforcement ties into both the foot binding straps and the mounting screws for the suspension straps, connecting the two primary load transfer points of the part. So, this should also have redundancy built into the composite assembly of the part. Hopefully, these upgrades will all come together to produce a stronger and more reliable monofin.
Awesome!!! I just found out that the DOL-Fin Orca is on the AIDA home page. :king
There are three pictures in a slide show rotation: one for recreational freediving, one for CWT and one for DYN. They used a picture of the DOL-Fin Orca at the WC for the DYN picture. I'm not sure who the swimmer is, there were so many who tried it there; but I can tell you that it is not I.
AIDA International
- Ron
There are three pictures in a slide show rotation: one for recreational freediving, one for CWT and one for DYN. They used a picture of the DOL-Fin Orca at the WC for the DYN picture. I'm not sure who the swimmer is, there were so many who tried it there; but I can tell you that it is not I.
AIDA International
- Ron
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That is really good to see. I am personally holding out on buying my next monofin until your products are available again. You have incorporated many design concepts that I think are worthwhile so it's good to see some recognition coming your way.
I have personally been to 61 meters (200 ft) in an AIDA recorded CWT dive with the first iteration Orca prototype. My depth limitation was from equalizing as opposed to a limitation in swimming distance from air supply. I'm not sure of what others may have done with it, but there have not been many opportunities for others to go deeper with it yet. So far, most divers have only used it in a pool environment.
Awesome...and congrats to you Ron on the 61M in Okinawa Japan earlier back a few month ago! Being in the top 8 for the event is sweet.
Rovanpera is a freediver in the philippines where I am and we also dive together, coincidentally he has also mastered the mouthfil technique and with your positive nod he can try it out too and do a PB with the DOL-fin.
There is a community of dive-minded people and having a DOL-fin distributor here could be of interest.
I am still awaiting the new baseplate of the unit in the post. Currently I am limited to a depth where the mouthfil technique is necessary to equalize deeper than 50M. But I only took it down to 40 on a CWT dive when I started the season in Oct/Nov and with after a few weeks of familiarizing myself with the product. This being said, I am looking forward to getting back on the DOL-fin!
Rovanpera is a freediver in the philippines where I am and we also dive together, coincidentally he has also mastered the mouthfil technique and with your positive nod he can try it out too and do a PB with the DOL-fin.
There is a community of dive-minded people and having a DOL-fin distributor here could be of interest.
I am still awaiting the new baseplate of the unit in the post. Currently I am limited to a depth where the mouthfil technique is necessary to equalize deeper than 50M. But I only took it down to 40 on a CWT dive when I started the season in Oct/Nov and with after a few weeks of familiarizing myself with the product. This being said, I am looking forward to getting back on the DOL-fin!
Just got a call from the Post...looks like its finally here...will pick up later for my Friday dive!
All is good...It arrived last week and I've had the pleasure of daily diving with it. I am able to use it much better, perhaps due to the time break in between, and seems much more natural. I'm also developing my own style with it as I experiment with different fining techniques. At any rate the ascent is surely better, which was what I wanted.
Cheers.
Cheers.
I’m glad to hear that you got your replacement part and all is well now. I don’t know why I did not get a notification of your updated messages to this thread, but this is the first I have noticed it. It could be a software glitch, but more likely I somehow managed to delete the notification without opening it. Bad me - for not looking in, or posting to my own thread in over 3 weeks. FYI: I still have not received the broken part for examination of the failure.
I’m still testing the new modification to the base plate to improve its strength and durability. So far, it is working very well, but I have not done all the testing that I want to do with it yet. So for now, the testing continues and retail sales are on hold. I’ve learned not to try to predict the future. Murphy has ways of inserting “features” into the plan that just end up making me look bad. :blackeye
Ron
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HI Ron....further update....now I'm diving really well with it and using my own movements getting me down and up in a nice style--i think-- 
Working really well,...very happy with it....i still dont use a neck weight and don't have issues on that with getting pushed to the side....obviously the key is to go through the learning curve on this, which is--from what i'm told--the case with any monofin.
So, I'm sure I will be loving this even more soon...but for now I have to master the mouth fill because i can't equalize past 50M.
One note...I would highly suggest adding the female velcro to BOTH SIDES of the ankle strap because I am noticing the lack of velcro on the top side of the strap is allowign the whole strap an excuse come unloosed and this happend on one dive....and on a very deep dive--sure may cause panic.
Working really well,...very happy with it....i still dont use a neck weight and don't have issues on that with getting pushed to the side....obviously the key is to go through the learning curve on this, which is--from what i'm told--the case with any monofin.
So, I'm sure I will be loving this even more soon...but for now I have to master the mouth fill because i can't equalize past 50M.
One note...I would highly suggest adding the female velcro to BOTH SIDES of the ankle strap because I am noticing the lack of velcro on the top side of the strap is allowign the whole strap an excuse come unloosed and this happend on one dive....and on a very deep dive--sure may cause panic.