Freedivers safety vest in development

[Stodelle]

Good point. I didn't think of that.

I will go out on a limb here and confess my sins. I am the type of person that would probably rely on that. The reason why is because I dive alone ALOT. When I am diving solo, I purposely limit my dives to no more than 1:30. However, when I dive with a partner I will push it more. Mainly because I know there is someone there if the s--t hits the fan.

I know it is wrong, but I see what Effatah is saying. I still think it is a better chance at survival, but I do see the risk involved.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I can't agree with Eric.

I know that we are coming from different perspectives. He is a competitive freediver who's sport requires that he push himself to the limits. I'm an old fart who can't imagine what it must feel like to have a chest spasm. I'm just trying to cruise and shoot a fish now and then, but am totally unwilling to push myself to do so.

I can see only an up side to this thing for me. I really don't think it would cause me to push my limits harder because I am so uncomfortable with even the thought of pushing my limits. I think it could only be positive for me in terms of survival.

If you customarily push the edge, then I guess I can see how it might induce you to push it harder, but that is not where I am.

 

[mattymatt]

Posted this thought on another site today:

After cleaning out a closet in my house I came across my ortovox avalanche transcievers and they got me thinking about the Safety Vest that is in development. I was thinking that when I go dive with friends I usually will look around to see where they are, although probably not as often as I should. I was thinking that a nice feature, albiet more expensive, would be for the wrist computer to be able to communicate with other vests in the area. I know that if SWB were to occur, reaching the surface via the vest is only half the battle, and the person will most likely also need cpr. It would be a neat feature if when one vest deployed it sent out a signal to the other vests in the area, something akin to a flashing red light. This would tell the buddy to swim his ass over and help his friend.

I really don't know to much about the vest, but I thougt that this might add to the vests functionality as a life saving tool. I also know that radio transmiting has gotten much cheaper in recent years (Im a photographer and use tons of radio slaves) and maybe they could incorporate this into the vest. Just a thought.

 

[hcknudsen]

Or the vest could make h_ll of a noise when activated, this (without my knowing) might even be a wake-up call to the swb victim, I have read several texts on the swb, as I recall all of them state that the vocal cord tightens to prevent any water from entering lungs preventing emidiate drowning, when the surface of divers face feels a breese of wind, it calls the diver back to consiusness since the brain understands this a sign of the airways being free of the water....I think they even suggested that you should´nt use cpr before trying to gently blow on the face of the victim.

please do not trust a word of this or take what I write as anything other than what I recall reading, there are texts to be found on the net written by people who know what they are talking about, personaly hate the topic, it freaks me out.........just wanted to suggest sound on the vest not write an essay

 

[fcallagy]

Noise on it may be a double edged sword as it may attract attention but might also tell your subconcious your still in danger and your subconcious says ok i,ll stay right where I am. From what I,ve read ( and i,m no expert ) in a black out the mind needs to be reassured that all is now safe again thats why shouting at an unconcious person isn,t recommended. An alert to your buddy would be handy to make them aware but don,t know anything about radio waves etc and whether they might scare off the fishies .

 

[Bill McIntyre]

An alert to your buddy would be handy to make them aware but don,t know anything about radio waves etc and whether they might scare off the fishies .

You can't really be thinking that it matters whether the fish get scared when someone is about to die, can you?

 

[Alexx]

but don,t know anything about radio waves etc and whether they might scare off the fishies .

Put a mobile phone near a fish tank and establish a call. Turn off sounds and vibrations and watch their behaviour rofl rofl rofl

 

[fcallagy]

sorry Bill,
I should have been more specific, I like fish but not more than I like living, what I meant was if the signal is constantly monitoring the situation and emitting it would scare away the fishes being hunted and would be counterproductive to spearos who I think would be the bigest market if it was only to emit a signal when activated then obviously that would be fine.

 

[Jon]

I wouldn't be too worried about spooking fish with the transmitter waves from the unit. Many of the new dive computers use wireless transmitters to send tank pressure info to the wrist unit and it doesn't scare fish- I used to have one and never had a problem.

As far as sending a signal to your buddy, it could be done. I remember seeing a unit a few years ago that could be carried by a dive instructor. It had read outs for all of the students depth/time/tank pressure. It was a little bit bulky , but that's because you could have a whole class full of students information read out on this device.

In the end I think it was just too expensive so it never came to market. That's what I would be affraid of with the vest- too many things added in that would put it's price out of reach for the average freediver/spearo.

I'm still interested ona release date/price of the unit as I see it as a must have for the much of the diving I wish to do in my area. Since it only goes to 120' it doesn't have much of a use for competition, but there are other systems already in place for that.

Jon

 

[DeepThought]

I think that the transmitter is actually a disadvantage in most cases. The problem is that except when used to extend cover when viz is low and the diver doesn't have a line/float line, it will make poeple depend on this device as the first line of defence while the buddy will have the liberty to do something else rather than proper safety. I can't understand why someone who can actually get a buddy would not dive with proper safety procedure: one down, one up and watching. Yes, even for spearing! And if one does that, there is not much a transmitter can add, if the transmitter is activated it means the diver is on his way up already. The person would probably be floating before one could meet him and aid with a mouthblock in mid ascent. Not to mention that might infact slow the ascent.
Well, actually I can understand why one would not use a buddy if having one, it is overconfidence that is causing that. I guess that person never blacked out unexpectedly or aided such a case or didn't learn from this experience.
It happened quite a lot, it can happen to ANYONE and the next time might be the last!
This vest should be used as a redundancy, have it there and always pretend it doesn't exist.

 

[ROBERT REYES]

Spearfishing and freediving are two very diferent things, wich is sad, because spearos should be more in tune with buddy system.
But that is not the case, and most of the time, a good spearo/freediver will take care of his buddy, but if the buddy is just a spearo who does not know about black outs and just thinks he knows it all and that he cant learn from black outs or pure freediving, the spearo/freediver is actually spearing alone even when there are two spearos in the water almost next to each other.

 

[Boomstick]

Perhaps they could make one for scubbies that get to close to Coral reefs:t

In all fairness, I'm a gadget freak and would be the first in line but at the same time, we haven't had one up until now and people have been freediving/spearfishing/shell collecting etc for a few thousand years without one??

I've shown newbies how to use a sled many times, and something I always drill into them is, don't go down further than a depth you could fin up from anyway, because if it does go wrong you can still come up........and live!!!

The same can be said of this vest, don't push it's limits and it won't push yours.

Same can also be said for buddys that don't know what they're doing

 

[KingTriton]

Hey Huan,

I tried to get info on the SWB vest but i haven't found any info other than Terry Mas is somehow involved. According to the article, Applied Ocean Specialties Inc. is developing it, but I can't find anything on them either. If you hear anything concrete, I would appreciate it if you would post it for all us who are interested. Thank you

 

[Seacidal]

Hey Huan,

I tried to get info on the SWB vest but i haven't found any info other than Terry Mas is somehow involved. According to the article, Applied Ocean Specialties Inc. is developing it, but I can't find anything on them either. If you hear anything concrete, I would appreciate it if you would post it for all us who are interested. Thank you

If you have questions about the SWB vest, you are welcome to ask me. However, please bear in mind that development in on-going, and remains our primary task. At the present time, publicity, advertising, etc. take a back seat to our efforts to bring out the very best and most advanced freediver safety/rescue device possible.

As the project advances, we will provide periodic updates to keep the diving community informed. I believe Terry Maas will be making a presentation in Florida in the coming weeks.

Thanks for your continued interest and support.
Chip Bissell
vice-president, AOS Inc.
LegalDiver@SBCglobal.net

 

[Ted Budion]

In the 60's Mares had developed a rough prototype called the DSA, an acronym for something like Diapositivo,(something) Apnea.

It was called DSA, Dispositivo di Sicurezza en Apnea (freediving safety device, roughly), and it was developped in 1975/1976, a period when, for some reason, there were many SWB-related drownings. Including my good friend and only seven years my senior club buddy Conrado Malta, only 6 months after winning the teams world title... I didn't test the DSA, few divers did. Italian Antonio Toschi was one of them. He modeled for the photos on the Mondo Sommerso magazine article about it. As a very young diver who had recently lost a good friend, I was quite impressed and hopefull.

The DSA was displayed with a lot of hooplah on the 1976 Genoa Boat Show. And spearfishers visiting the stand were very cheerfull. I was one of the lucky ones to handle a DSA at Mares', with Toschi and former-World champion Massimo Scarpatti explaining its workings, man, how cool is that . Picture that: a 20-year junior spearfisher being pampered by such legends. I credited that to our common acquaintances. But I never forgot that day, 30 years ago.

Then, silence. Nobody talked about the DSA anymore. The story goes that since Mares belonged then to the AMF conglomerate, they had to submit the DSA to the URL lab testing to sell it in the US: it failed. Rumor has it that the timing device wasn't reliable; that "what if the thing activates in a cave" and so on. In fact, the real story never became public and DSA died, along with, tragically, hundreds of our fellow spearfishers in the ensueing three decades.

I recall that in the same time Mares worked an electronic-activate device, the DSA, Technisub or GSD developed a mechanical device. The principle was that, when in danger, the diver would grasp a lever, if he/she passed out, the hand would not hold the lever, and the co2 capsule would be punctured. If diver surfaced OK, he/she could lock the activator again. But it never worked: dropping your weight-belt was much easier, and nobody did or does it...

According to Terry, the new device is an one year away from being on the market.

 

[Cliff Etzel]

I find this discussion quite interesting since seeing the initial concept of this product. And from what I can gather, this is a direct knock off of Ricardo Hernandez's patented design...

 

[Seacidal]

I find this discussion quite interesting since seeing the initial concept of this product. And from what I can gather, this is a direct knock off of Ricardo Hernandez's patented design...

Cliff,
Are you referrring to U.S. patent number 5800228? or perhaps another? I am very interested in whichever patent you may be referring to. While I am not going to engage in a detailed non-infringement analysis, perhaps you might like to provide me with some basis for your contention. Do you mean that the '228 patent anticipates the current product, or that the current product infringes the '228 patent?

Please understand, that patent law is a strange and complex beast, with subtleties and distinctions that are often foreign to laypersons.

I would be glad to address any evidence you may have of the current product being "a direct knock off", as the patent office is already aware of the '228 patent.

Sincerely,
Chip Bissell
Freediver/Patent Attorney
Applied Ocean Specialties, Inc.
LegalDiver@SBCglobal.net

 

[Seacidal]

It was called DSA, Dispositivo di Sicurezza en Apnea (freediving safety device, roughly), and it was developped in 1975/1976, ...
The DSA was displayed with a lot of hooplah on the 1976 Genoa Boat Show. .

According to Terry, the new device is an one year away from being on the market.

Hello Ted,
I have heard of the Mares DSA device, but have yet to obtain any reliable publications re. the device and its features and construction. I would greatly appreciate any reliably dated, published information you could provide. Thank you.
If I may expand a bit on Terry's time estimate. Please bear in mind that the future is a difficult thing to predict. Development of the freediver safety device is proceeding well, and product testing, design configuration, and software programming are advancing rapidly along their parallel tracks. Still, there remains much to be done. Manufacturing, packaging, required regulatory testing, distribution channels, etc. are all steps along the path toward providing freedivers with the best possible safety product. We are proceeding as rapidly as responsible development permits, rather than setting an absolute deadline for the product release. We look forward to the input and response of the divers who participate in the prototype testing and the product test groups.

Chip Bissell
AOS, Inc.

 

[Ted Budion]

I have heard of the Mares DSA device, but have yet to obtain any reliable publications re. the device and its features and construction. I would greatly appreciate any reliably dated, published information you could provide.

Hi Chip,

When my family moved from Europe to the US, in early 1980, my mom threw away my Mondo Sommerso collection (I was living in Brazil then so I couldn't defend space rights!). If she weren't my mom, I could have beaten her senseless.:martial Cool heads prevailed. I will see with my Italian connections if we could find this issue. Mark L mentioned having sent something to Terry, do you know what was it?

I remember the DSA very well. So far, your device is superior in all aspects, not considering the electronics limitation of the timer devised in a pre-micro-electronics era. It looked like a airline lifevest. On the bottom left there was a round box, the timer, the actuator and a CO2 capsule.

The DSA was worn over the wetsuit, but Mares stated then that it could be worn under the suit (BS, IMHO). Before diving, the diver would set the time limit. If he/she overstayed, the actuator would trigger the CO2 cartridge. Very simple.

I recall telling Scarpatti and Toschi then that unless many changes were done in the design, I didn't see spearfishers (a finnicky bunch...) ever wearing one. Presuming the timer-actuator performed flawlessly (rumor had it didn't), it would be like freediving with a old-fashion-type collar BC. I remember mentioning it had to be streamlined otherwise people would use it.

Knowledge of SWB then wasn't as deep (no pun intended) as today's. And for what I've read in Terry's piece, you've addressed the important issues.

 

[Seacidal]

Ted,
I can empathize with your loss. It would be great if your connections could find the issue presenting the DSA. I would like to see it.
The freedive safety apparatus currently in development is far more sophisticated and adaptable than a simple dive timing device mated to an airvest. Detailing all the features of the device, and the extent of its programmed "intellligence", would be too extensive for this forum. Terry's articles have set forth a number of these features, and we believe that the device will be very diver-friendly and convenient to use, without being a burden to wear and maintain.
Thanks for your input.
Chip Bissell