Freedivers safety vest in development

[azapa]

Hi, I have cross-posted this on another board as well to see if we can generate some more ideas.
This is a great project. Congrats to all involved. I am a freediver (intermediate level at best) and engineer (a good one, IMHO

I have been dreaming up a vest for some time, but I see you have got it to a very high state of development already. Let me give you my ideas, as compared to your version, they were very simple and a little "out of the box". I hope they help:

1. "my" vest would be very simple and low tech/ low cost to encourage more people to really use them. Freediving is an inherently low cost sport, and attractive for that reason.

2. I recognize (I do it myself nearly all the time) that many people freedive alone. I am careful, but know the risks. I could die any time I go out. I take the risk. Its either that, or not go out. I therefore need a chance to survive a BO.

3. The activation device would be hand held, passing out, releasing the squeeze, would inflate. It would work as follows: commence dive, once down (personal taste/ comfort point) arm with one hard squeeze. Retain with soft squeeze. I have ideas for "squeezer" to go down divers arm, inside wetsuit, appearing at wrist and fitting over glove. Low profile, lo drag, and snag proof. These may have to be duplicated, one on both hands working together.

4. I am not a doctor, but blackouts generally release muscle tension. Releasing squeeze starts inflation process. Connection squeezer>valve via mechanical connection, like bike brakes: steel wire within flexible steel tube guide.

5. Your inflation layout looks perfect.

6. On surface, a loud whistle blows, powered by same air residual from inflation process. In fact, whistle starts as soon as vest is filled. Both are on same manifold. Whistle has three points:
i. Attract attention of potential helpers
ii. alerts dopey diver himself
iii. angled so as to blow air (whistle) on divers face. This has been shown to be a very effective as a stimulus to bring around a blacked out diver

7. < US$100 target.

Of all the points, I think that 6 and 7 are important. OK, so its never going to approach the effectivty of your vest. But over a 10year period, may save the same quantity of lives?

You may consider the two price range models?


Please let me know if you need anything. Although, I have nothing more to offer other than these ideas!

If you need and "beta testers" in the cold, kelpy waters of Chile, let mw know!

GOOD LUCK........

 

[Seacidal]

Azapa,
I can tell you have thought long and hard about this, and you are to be commended for your efforts. They say that great minds think alike. That may be true. The features you refer to in your paragraphs 3 & 4 have been incorporated into a number of previous attempts and patents. The features in paragraph 6 would be more difficult to enable. However, additional surface signaling features have been considered and may be incorporated. Your paragraph 7 sets out one factor in determining how many, and what, additional features to include. Clearly, the primary objective of the device is to make every effort to help ensure the return of a unconscious freediver to the surface. To that end, performance and reliability are key, and cost is not controlling. Yet we recognize that in order for the device to be useful, it needs to be used. Therefore, it can't be priced out of reach. While pricing remains to be determined, I believe it will be as affordable as possible.

 

[azapa]

Hello Chip, thanks for your positive reply. I think I can see a nail being hit squarely on its head: are these going to be bought by solo freedivers?? If I had a buddy, why buy one?

This opens a whole "can o' worms" as some may say the product endorses or allow solo freedives.

For me, this is as a BIG point, as I actually like to solo freedive.

Secondarily, assuming the above, the alert system (signaling) is of paramount importance. I, personally, would have no use for the vest if it did not have it.

Best of luck, and congrats again on the initiative. I dearly hope it is a sucess.

..azapa....

 

[Seacidal]

While being returned to the surface in the event of blackout is obviously desirable, by no means is it a guarantee of survival. Subsequent surface rescue efforts may be required and are always recommended. Diving alone is risky, regardless. That risk may be reduced. But eliminated? Not likely. The present device may make the odds more favorable for freedivers, but survival is never a sure thing.

I don't know the usual conditions where you dive, but in many places (like California) the visibility and/or kelp coverage prevents you from observing your buddy throughout their dive. It is not uncommon to be diving to 30 feet, over a 50 foot deep bottom, with visibility of less than 15 feet. Say that your buddy makes a dive, disappears from view, and reappears on the surface some 100 feet away. If your buddy didn't return to the surface, when, and how, would you begin your search?

With an alert system as you suggested, you would have to ensure a reserve (or other source) of compressed gas to activate a whistle. And an audible alarm would have to either be audible underwater for great distance, or be of sufficient duration on the surface to provide time for your buddy to resurface from their dive.

As you can well appreciate, simple ideas often require sophisticated solutions in order to provide the desired function in ways which are effective, dependable, durable, and inexpensive. I welcome your suggestions and discussion of the features, and I encourage all of you to follow along as the development of this device proceeds toward becoming readily available.

Chip

 

[Fondueset]

I agree re- the buddy scenario. This device would certainly not be replaced by a buddy or be a replacement for one. I like the alarm idea but would not use compressed gas to power it. An audible alarm would be more economically and ergonomically handled with a battery operated device - a small strobe would be a great addition - there are quite a few on the market that are very small. A simple idea I had awhile ago was to attach a strobe to your float - assuming that you are attached to the float - with a timer that you have to deactivate upon surfacing. Primitive and I know being attatched to your float is not allways practical.

In short, I think an audible and visible alarm is a great idea. It could be marketed as an addon if you are trying to keep the base price down. It could probably be triggered in a couple of different ways - either off the guage/timer - or right off inflation.

 

[efattah]

From my own experience in trying to market products to the freediving community, I can say that it is pointless to try to market a niche item for $100 or less. You will lose money guaranteed, don't even bother.

There was a day when I was extremely excited about making a company which manufactured freediving products. My dream was repeatedly shattered as I was forced to accept the fact that freedivers (in general) refuse to pay any substantial amount of money for anything. This makes it one of the most useless markets in the world for any type of manufacturer. To use an example, the Suunto D3 is (in my opinion) an extremely reasonably priced computer, around $250. However, if you surf around the net, you will find that it is considered one of the greatest rip offs in existence, and freedivers all over the world laugh at the 'joke' price which they consider 10 times too expensive for what the device does. Even when I had the fluid goggles priced aggressively at $165 (less than break-even), there was no end to the jokes and humiliations about the the ridiculous price.

Attempting to sell a product to freedivers which costs $500 or more, and you can expect to sell less than 10 units per year, if you're lucky, from a base of around 100,000 freedivers. If the item is even remotely bulky, most freedivers won't even use it, even if you give it to them for free, and nothing can be more humiliating than that.

This is not in any way a criticism of freedivers -- I am one of them after all -- it is just the cold hard reality of this market. Freedivers seem (on average) to be involved in freediving because it is FREE, or because they think it should be free. People often joke about the word 'FREE'-diving, but in fact it is no joke, its practitioners expect it to be free.

As a result I have shifted my company's market to scuba diving and will never again return to the freediving market in any risk-related fashion.

 

[trux]

If I had a buddy, why buy one?

Good comment! When you have a buddy, you should not buy one, but two of them!

Seriously - I know very well how diving with buddies looks like in very most cases. Rarely it is really done safely. That is usually the case only at competition freedivers training on a descent line. They watch each other very carefully, respect surface intervals, have counterweight systems in place, go to meet the diver on his ascent and accompany him during the last meters carefully watching his reactions and being ready to intervene immediately, etc.

That's practically never the case at recreational freedivers at spearos. Even if they dive with buddies, the security is far to be ideal, and accidents still happen even with a buddy just a few tens of meters away. I think that an affordable vest can really help saving lives even (or especially) in such cases.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

If I had a buddy, why buy one?

Both of us are posting in multiple forums, so you may have read this already.

Buddies for spearfishermen are over rated. The buddy has to be able to see you when you black out, dive to your depth while frightened and with his heart racing, and then get both of you to the surface.

Now and then I watch a friend dive down through the kelp in average vis- he soon disappears. If I decide he has been down too long, am I likely to find him? Many times I've become concerned over the length of time that a buddy is down, only to see him on the surface in the kelp a few yards away. I never even saw him come up, so how likely is it that I could have found him on the bottom?

I lost a friend in very clear water in Mexico and spotted his body on the bottom at 90 feet. I can't dive to 90 feet, much less bring someone up from that depth. If he had been wearing this vest and it worked as advertised, he wouldn't have been there.

I'm aware of one diver who died in clear water with a buddy overhead watching him, and the buddy was capable of diving to his depth under normal circumstances. But in the panic of seeing his friend dying, he was unable to make a dive to that depth and save him.

Under the very controlled conditions of competitive freediving, buddies certainly have value, but I think they are over rated in most spearfishing situations.

 

[Oldsarge]

The man speaks with the gloomy voice of experience. And, as the beginner's beginner, I listen! Bill has been there and, grieving, done that so I suspect that it is among the more experienced spearos that a market will exist. No, you product won't be cheap and it shouldn't be. However, once it begins to prove itself in divers brought home smiling who otherwise would have been in bodybags, the market will grow. Keep it up, Chip, we need this thing!

 

[Jon]

Eric,

If you think freedivers are cheap just wait until you meet tech divers. When your diving with 5+ regulators/tanks/gauges on every dive you really look for the best price you can get on the best gear you can afford. Between Ebay and online stores very tech diver I know has a file of online shops to dig for cheap gear.

Jon

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I'm afraid Eric is right- freedivers are cheap. And to compound the problem, it seems like freedivers are a bit more likely than scuba divers to be young and not yet at their peak earning years, so they are less likely to be able to afford expensive equipment.

And then there are the freedivers who are so macho that they would feel that it would be showing weakness to even use a "crutch" like this vest.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. There will always be people who decide that they can't afford this vest, for whatever reason.

But on Spearboard, I read of an awful lot of guys who buy guns costing from $800 to $1000 or more. Will this vest cost more than that?

I know that everyone who needs one won't buy this vest. My selfish concern is that enough people will buy so as to make the project viable for the investors so that they can stay afloat and support me after I buy one.

In that regard, I've heard that some very high profile spearfishermen are committed to use the vest. I'm hoping that when the word gets around that these big time icons use it, and when reports start coming in of lives saved, then the market will grow.

 

[DeepThought]

Having to hold a trigger in one hand sounds too "unfree" for my kind of freediving. Would also make it hard for spearfishers.

The underwater alarm sounds like a good idea to me. I remember some Scuba BCD's (Sherwood I think) that use to have an underwater "whistle" connected to their air intake vavle (you could whistle instead of inflating the BCD pressing a different button). If it's just a simple piece of plastic that could be added to the over-pressure valve of the bladder (as there must be one I guess) I think it could be proven very valueable if an electronic alarm is too much of a complication. It would require smart designing and testing of course, to tune it in a way that carries sound far enough in water. Considering how sound travels in water it might be possible to create an audible alarm for quite a range. If the buddy's head is in the water he should be able to know something's wrong and look for his buddy ascending/on the surface.
Electronic surface alarm should be more efficient. But if it's just an added piece of plastic - or piece of plastic+spring to make sound pulses if it'll increase the range it might be worth it as a cheap redundancy. I have no knowledge how much it'll add to your project's cost to design such a thing though, maybe there are already available solutions to copy/buy from.

As for the "Free" aspect of freediving. I agree with Eric that it's a tough market. I would probably not be able to purchase such a vest in the next few years (assuming I'll keep being a poor student), but I think that if there will be one on the market that I'll consider practical for frequent diving I will eventually save up to get one, assuming the cost won't be something unreachable as 2000$.

I think the main obstacle in selling this product is lack of knowledge/experience of most spearfishers (and untrained freedivers). Most freedivers/spearfishers take it for grunted they will always surface conscious as that is how it has always been. And from my experience spearfishers mostly have no idea about proper safety or dangers of freediving. I dove recreationally once with a very capable spearfisher. After repeatedly asking him after surfacing if he is watchinig me I realized his idea of the buddy system is quite different than mine (and I kept divign as if I dove solo). I think most untrained spearfishers/freedivers just don't have the knowledge/experience to realize what means are abosultly necessary to make freediving safe, and that's the problem.

On that note, taking it a little further, I absolutely hate the idea that such a device might become a mandatory item by law and I hope no over-enthusiastic legislator will ever try that.

 

[Fondueset]

I favor an electronic alarm - in part because an air powered one might add to the volume of air needed for the vest - resulting in a larger cylinder. A strobe would be a huge help in spotting a diver who has been brought to the surface by the vest - particularly in rough conditions.

I was thinking this vest is apt to weigh something. I currently use a vest with a very small amount of weight in it to help keep the upper body down during aspetto. The weight of the vest could actually be a marketing plus for spearos. My weight vest is also camoflaged and you could do that with this vest as well. A couple of ideas that would not add to the cost but might help as selling points. It would not just be a safety vest then but would have some utility outside of emergency situations.

 

[Seacidal]

As this project has advanced, all of the ideas that have been suggested so far, as well as many, many others have been raised, extensively discussed, and evaluated as to whether they would be essential features or desirable options.

As with autos, some features are not optional, i.e. airbags, seat belts etc. But some are, such as GPS navigation, OnStar vehicle services, etc. At some point, you have to decide where to stop with the "bells & whistles." (Pun intended.)

What may at first sound like a simple idea, is far different than figuring out and reducing to practice the most effective, reliable, and efficient design to achieve the desired goal.

For example, if a whistle were mounted to an over-pressure relief valve, how much would if alter the performance of the valve? If some piece of kelp, gravel, salt crystals! were lodged or adhered in the whistle, could it impede air flow and create the possibility of the inflation bladder rupturing from over-pressure? That would be unacceptable.

I say this not to be critical, but very often, good ideas sound simple. Yet when one goes to put pencil to paper to design and build the actual unit that will embody the concept, unforeseen issues arise. Herein is where the real work begins. The ocean is a challenging environment, and freedivers test the boundaries of their equipment. Combined, the current project has undergone extensive review and analysis at every step. Testing and refinement of prototypes will continue this practice, in order that the finished product is one that will provide freedivers with revolutionary and essential safety equipment.

Thanks for your suggestions and support.
Chip Bissell

 

[azapa]

good point about diving WITH buddies and still needing the jacket. I have just returned from a dive with 2 spearos, to be honest, we entered the water together, and exited together, but i only saw them 3 times in the 1 1/2 hours in the water! Everyone jusr heads for their fave rock or corner to hunt. I guess that hunter instict overides logic and safety.

Re sissy factor of wearing a vest? Forget it, I would be proud to have one on.

Keep pushing the product guys. I will buy one.

 

[Seacidal]

good point about diving WITH buddies and still needing the jacket. I have just returned from a dive with 2 spearos, to be honest, we entered the water together, and exited together, but i only saw them 3 times in the 1 1/2 hours in the water! Everyone jusr heads for their fave rock or corner to hunt. I guess that hunter instict overides logic and safety.

Re sissy factor of wearing a vest? Forget it, I would be proud to have one on.

Keep pushing the product guys. I will buy one.

azapa,

I know exactly what you mean. Often, when diving with others, we don't become concerned about them until we're back on the boat (or beach), and notice we can't see them. If they were in trouble, most likely it would be too late by the time we did something and found them. It is our hope that the introduction of the device may at least help to improve the odds, and at best, save lives.

Thanks for all of your interest and continued support.
Chip Bissell
Please check out The Freedivers Safety Vest; A device to protect those who suffer freediver blackout (shallow water blackout) by bringing them to the surface for more information, and the latest updates.

 

[adolphin]

Well Seacidal,
I would at best say : " NO COMMENT" .. count me in for at least one (coz I won't be able to share it with my buddies, so rather I would handle them the extras) .. .. oh yes I think when this product hits the market I will set up a team and rise a strong case so that the Freediving assosiations get Freediving Safety Vests (FSVs) or what ever you would call it, to be part of safety procedures best practices .. and get to be part of the freediving courses to train on using them and more importantly to make the courses attendants KNOW the LIMITATIONS, so the device becomes an extra safety rather than a death trap.

 

[adolphin]

Hi there ! .. any news about the project ? ..

 

[Oldsarge]

Do a search for the Long Beach Neptune's Meeting from two months ago.

 

[Seal]

I tried inflating my lifejacket at 20m/60feet once, and the pressure prevented it from inflating. Talk about false security : )

My "life line" also got stuck under a rock once ascending.

I have stopped using any forms of "life savers" since then.