Help with breath hold (static dry apnea)

[PickPock]

Hello to all,

A couple of months ago I came across a video on youtube about breath holds and freediving. Having no knowledge of either I found it incredibly interesting.
So I started looking at more information online to try and learn more about it. I thought it would be good to see if I could improve my ability to hold my breath more as a means to push myself and prove I could improve it.
I find that there are a few different thoughts on how a breath hold should be carried out and I see a lot of negativity towards hyperventilation and I as I understand it the lack of co2 could lead to no warning signal and with low o2 cause a blackout.

So I found a really good app for my phone which enables me to record my best times and also has given me o2 and co2 tables (it's a Freediving type app). I've been doing my co2 tables for a month now.

Before I started trying any breath hold techniques I did a base breath hold so I could compare any improvements.

Very first ever record of a breath hold was 1m 15s. No preparation just inhaled and held my breath.
Following on from this having continued the co2 tables the best I managed after a month was 1m 31s.

I then came across another technique (hyperventilation type) and following the instructions I managed a 2m 13s. At the end I wasn't gasping for air and probably could have gone some more. This was by far the easiest breath hold I have done.

I then progressed to another technique which I have been trying for the last few weeks. It's the one that involves total relaxation. I'm doing 5s in breaths, 10s out breaths for 4 minutes, all in to my diaphragm then going for a breath hold which initially was 1m 13s, then back to another 4 minutes and another hold 1m 36s and then another 4 minutes followed by another hold of 1m 51s and then another resulting in 1m 52s.

The problem is that using this technique I cant manage any more than 1m 52s, and yet using the Hyperventilation method I managed 2m 13s.

The main thing I hope somebody can advise on is the following:

When I breath hold (relaxation method) when I get towards the end of the hold I feel an immense pressure in both my head and neck. I am yet to feel any contractions.
It is this pressure that becomes unbearable and when I end the breathe hold I am gasping for air.

Am I doing something wrong? I am confused as to whether this immense pressure and feeling the need to breath is what I should expect or am I supposed to try and pass through this?
I saw a great deal of comments posted to the author of the relaxation technique I am now trying and so many people went from mediocre times like my 1m 15s to over 3 minutes.

I would really appreciate any thoughts advice or tips that could help me to improve my breath hold times.

 

[SubSub]

Hello to all,

A couple of months ago I came across a video on youtube about breath holds and freediving. Having no knowledge of either I found it incredibly interesting.
So I started looking at more information online to try and learn more about it. I thought it would be good to see if I could improve my ability to hold my breath more as a means to push myself and prove I could improve it.
I find that there are a few different thoughts on how a breath hold should be carried out and I see a lot of negativity towards hyperventilation and I as I understand it the lack of co2 could lead to no warning signal and with low o2 cause a blackout.

So I found a really good app for my phone which enables me to record my best times and also has given me o2 and co2 tables (it's a Freediving type app). I've been doing my co2 tables for a month now.

Before I started trying any breath hold techniques I did a base breath hold so I could compare any improvements.

Very first ever record of a breath hold was 1m 15s. No preparation just inhaled and held my breath.
Following on from this having continued the co2 tables the best I managed after a month was 1m 31s.

I then came across another technique (hyperventilation type) and following the instructions I managed a 2m 13s. At the end I wasn't gasping for air and probably could have gone some more. This was by far the easiest breath hold I have done.

I then progressed to another technique which I have been trying for the last few weeks. It's the one that involves total relaxation. I'm doing 5s in breaths, 10s out breaths for 4 minutes, all in to my diaphragm then going for a breath hold which initially was 1m 13s, then back to another 4 minutes and another hold 1m 36s and then another 4 minutes followed by another hold of 1m 51s and then another resulting in 1m 52s.

The problem is that using this technique I cant manage any more than 1m 52s, and yet using the Hyperventilation method I managed 2m 13s.

The main thing I hope somebody can advise on is the following:

When I breath hold (relaxation method) when I get towards the end of the hold I feel an immense pressure in both my head and neck. I am yet to feel any contractions.
It is this pressure that becomes unbearable and when I end the breathe hold I am gasping for air.

Am I doing something wrong? I am confused as to whether this immense pressure and feeling the need to breath is what I should expect or am I supposed to try and pass through this?
I saw a great deal of comments posted to the author of the relaxation technique I am now trying and so many people went from mediocre times like my 1m 15s to over 3 minutes.

I would really appreciate any thoughts advice or tips that could help me to improve my breath hold times.

You’re not doing anything wrong. One of the things you do with constant training is you increase the co2 tolerance. This is what make you gasp for air, and what makes you feel uncomfortable. Hyperventilating flushes the co2 from your blood and that’s why it is a more comfortable, yet wrong way to breath up.

Not everyone experience contraction btw. So, good for you!

The pressure you’re feeling is a rise in blood pressure as the breath hold gets longer and once you release the hold it gets back to normal quite quickly.

The relaxation exercises is the way to go, with practice comes perfect, but it’s not really a quick fix.

 

[PickPock]

You’re not doing anything wrong. One of the things you do with constant training is you increase the co2 tolerance. This is what make you gasp for air, and what makes you feel uncomfortable. Hyperventilating flushes the co2 from your blood and that’s why it is a more comfortable, yet wrong way to breath up.

Not everyone experience contraction btw. So, good for you!

The pressure you’re feeling is a rise in blood pressure as the breath hold gets longer and once you release the hold it gets back to normal quite quickly.

The relaxation exercises is the way to go, with practice comes perfect, but it’s not really a quick fix.

Many thanks for the reply.

So in essence continue doing the co2 tables and continue with trying to relax before doing a best hold time?

I really want to try and make it to at least 3 mins, but at this moment in time it's looking a long way away.

 

[SubSub]

There are no shortcuts. Like in all sports. Practices make perfect. And patience.

 

[Nathan Vinski]

When I breath hold (relaxation method) when I get towards the end of the hold I feel an immense pressure in both my head and neck. I am yet to feel any contractions.
It is this pressure that becomes unbearable and when I end the breathe hold I am gasping for air.

It's very difficult to tell without actually seeing you do your holds but this sounds like something very similar to what I see a lot with students when I'm teaching the static part of the course. A lot of beginners will (the best way to describe it that my friend came up with is), use too much energy to hold their breath. the pressure in the head+neck that isn't contractions sounds like you're forcing the air to stay in, instead of taking a breath and then relaxing.

Again, its difficult to tell without seeing you to tell you exactly what to work on, but some things to focus on are; Relaxing your jaw and tongue, relaxing your collar bone and shoulder area. Mentally you shouldn't be waiting for any pressure of discomfort to come, work on letting go and finding enjoyment in the comfortable part of the hold and that will help you avoid having any tension creep in as time goes on.

Another thing that helps me when doing dry hold is to use slightly less-than-full lungs. Because of the pressure on you back from gravity its almost impossible to relax at full-volume. I get my best/most comfortable dry statics at around 90-95% full, where in water I will go for 100% full.

Finally, Even if the feeling is 'unbearable' its not going to kill you, so don't be afraid to really push yourself a little longer. For an average healthy person 2:13 is well within your limit, and if you are doing this dry, in your bed, then nothing bad can really happen.

Taking a course or doing a session with a good instructor would probably be best, as they can spot exactly what's going on and give the right advice that you need to solve your particular problem.

 

[PickPock]

It's very difficult to tell without actually seeing you do your holds but this sounds like something very similar to what I see a lot with students when I'm teaching the static part of the course. A lot of beginners will (the best way to describe it that my friend came up with is), use too much energy to hold their breath. the pressure in the head+neck that isn't contractions sounds like you're forcing the air to stay in, instead of taking a breath and then relaxing.

Again, its difficult to tell without seeing you to tell you exactly what to work on, but some things to focus on are; Relaxing your jaw and tongue, relaxing your collar bone and shoulder area. Mentally you shouldn't be waiting for any pressure of discomfort to come, work on letting go and finding enjoyment in the comfortable part of the hold and that will help you avoid having any tension creep in as time goes on.

Another thing that helps me when doing dry hold is to use slightly less-than-full lungs. Because of the pressure on you back from gravity its almost impossible to relax at full-volume. I get my best/most comfortable dry statics at around 90-95% full, where in water I will go for 100% full.

Finally, Even if the feeling is 'unbearable' its not going to kill you, so don't be afraid to really push yourself a little longer. For an average healthy person 2:13 is well within your limit, and if you are doing this dry, in your bed, then nothing bad can really happen.

Taking a course or doing a session with a good instructor would probably be best, as they can spot exactly what's going on and give the right advice that you need to solve your particular problem.

Many thanks for your reply,

I would say you are very probably right. I was under the impression that I needed to take on as much air as possible so I will try it next with a bit less air on my in breath. Currently I'm breathing into my diaphragm, then central chest and then finally upper chest. Is this the best way?

Regarding the co2 tables, I am currently at 1m doing 8 in a row. Do I need to keep increasing this after a period of time i.e. Add 5 seconds to it after a week or so? And should I continue to do co2 tables and then start to do o2 tables as well perhaps alternating them over days or is it best to do the co2 tables for a period of time and then switch to o2 tables instead?

I looked at the possibility of doing an AIDA 1&2 course just for the whole experience and to get the coaching to improve my breath hold. Unfortunately I can neither spare the time or the money at this time.

 

[Nathan Vinski]

Many thanks for your reply,

I would say you are very probably right. I was under the impression that I needed to take on as much air as possible so I will try it next with a bit less air on my in breath. Currently I'm breathing into my diaphragm, then central chest and then finally upper chest. Is this the best way?

Regarding the co2 tables, I am currently at 1m doing 8 in a row. Do I need to keep increasing this after a period of time i.e. Add 5 seconds to it after a week or so? And should I continue to do co2 tables and then start to do o2 tables as well perhaps alternating them over days or is it best to do the co2 tables for a period of time and then switch to o2 tables instead?

I looked at the possibility of doing an AIDA 1&2 course just for the whole experience and to get the coaching to improve my breath hold. Unfortunately I can neither spare the time or the money at this time.

Yes the way you are taking you last breath is correct. Generally I wouldn't over complicate it, just think of it as a 2-part breath, first diaphragm, then chest. No real need to separate the chest parts.

There is no real set rules about when to do CO2 or O2 tables.. But as the name suggests you should mainly focus on the one thats holding you back.. If its black-out then mainly do O2, If its discomfort than do more CO2.

Something that also works very well with STA is just doing 4-5 unspecified-time holds.. If you want to work on relaxation just go until first contraction or first discomfort. If you want to train your breath hold just do max-holds back to back. This way each hold trains CO2 and O2, whats varied is the intensity of each depending on how hard you are pushing. Personally I prefer this approach over doing the traditional-format tables.

 

[PickPock]

Yes the way you are taking you last breath is correct. Generally I wouldn't over complicate it, just think of it as a 2-part breath, first diaphragm, then chest. No real need to separate the chest parts.

There is no real set rules about when to do CO2 or O2 tables.. But as the name suggests you should mainly focus on the one thats holding you back.. If its black-out then mainly do O2, If its discomfort than do more CO2.

Something that also works very well with STA is just doing 4-5 unspecified-time holds.. If you want to work on relaxation just go until first contraction or first discomfort. If you want to train your breath hold just do max-holds back to back. This way each hold trains CO2 and O2, whats varied is the intensity of each depending on how hard you are pushing. Personally I prefer this approach over doing the traditional-format tables.

Many thanks again

I will continue with the training, especially the co2 tables and take all your advice on board.

 

[nyugimugi]

There are no shortcuts. Like in all sports. Practices make perfect. And patience.

I have to disagree. When you ask someone how long they can hold their breaths, you should really ask instead:

How long can you hold your breath with pharynx opened and pharynx closed?

There is a big difference. I unconsciously closed my pharynx everytime I tried doing breath holds and after a few attempts I could go over 3:30... I mean, in ONE day, completely untrained, not doing any sports in that period of my life and even smoking sometimes....

Now guess what, with my pharynx opened (and of course not pinching my nose either) my diaphragm starts burning after like a minute... BS!!! And nowadays I work out and go swimming!!!!!!
I cousciously now keep my pharynx opened everytime I'm underwater to train my freaking diaphragm.

Btw, this thing I mentioned is about static apnea. I did not feel too much of a difference when doing dynamic apnea. (strange)

What do you guys think?

 

[VCO]

Mentally you shouldn't be waiting for any pressure of discomfort to come

this is my biggest issue in general
I dont get any strong contractions until 2:30 - 3 min range but I still wait for them
and the moment I check my time I cant go on and give up in 15-20 secs

I get my best time when somehow I focus my mind and dont check the time but its hard for me , nowadays 9/10 times I fail even before the contractions

I need to find a way to keep my mind focusing something else .....

 

[Nathan Vinski]

this is my biggest issue in general
I dont get any strong contractions until 2:30 - 3 min range but I still wait for them
and the moment I check my time I cant go on and give up in 15-20 secs

I get my best time when somehow I focus my mind and dont check the time but its hard for me , nowadays 9/10 times I fail even before the contractions

I need to find a way to keep my mind focusing something else .....

A friend of mine (6:30 STA) mostly trains in the 'no contraction zone'. The point is to learn that STA is very enjoyable especially in the comfortable phase. I've been doing the same in any of my STA training and have noticed much better focus in the beginning. After a certain volume of comfortable Statics you learn to stop worrying about them being uncomfortable.

 

[Aquamacca]

I never train my tables more than 2x a week. Lie down, do my CO2 (8x2;30) then relax for 4 minutes with long exhales. Normally start contractions around 4mins. Hold to 5. My breath in at the start is strong belly first then chest. No hyperventilation or packing. Doing diaphragm exercises like kapalabhati can help but as Subsub said, there are no shortcuts. I've got a mate who tries to train too hard and blacks out. I refuse to dive with him as he's too careless.

 

[BrownE50]

Hey Aquamac,
Can you please share some video?
So, we all can get motivation from it.

 

[Nathan Vinski]

@Aquamac01

"Long exhales" is hyperventilation. 4:00 of exhales is actually quite a lot of hyperventilation.

Now, there isn't anything wrong with that, necessarily. long statics pretty much require hyperventilation at some level.

But. Just be clear that any modified exhales is hyperventilation and this can have an effect on your non-static diving.. DYN and DNF in particular.

(I'm not trying to 'call you out' or anything like that. I use HV for deep diving.. actually almost all freedivers do, but they just don't realise it, or just call it something else. I just think it's important to know exactly what you're/ we're all doing. )

 

[Aquamacca]

Hey guys, Just to be clear, long exhales are NOT hyperventilation. I'm talking about relaxing breath-ups. Gently breath in for 4 seconds (2 seconds diaphragm 2 seconds chest), then gently exhale for 8-10 seconds, restrict it as if you were saying an 's' sound, you can tailor this to your own lung capacity. Longer exhales will relax you and help trigger the dive reflex. I never practice hyperventilation, it builds alkalinity and restricts transfer of O2 to the blood. Extending the exhale helps avoid hyperventilation.

I use this prior to each dive. It helps get the heart rate down, then a good full breath and descend. Follow up with 3/4 strong recovery breaths on surfacing.

 

[Nathan Vinski]

Hey guys, Just to be clear, long exhales are NOT hyperventilation. I'm talking about relaxing breath-ups. Gently breath in for 4 seconds (2 seconds diaphragm 2 seconds chest), then gently exhale for 8-10 seconds, restrict it as if you were saying an 's' sound, you can tailor this to your own lung capacity. Longer exhales will relax you and help trigger the dive reflex. I never practice hyperventilation, it builds alkalinity and restricts transfer of O2 to the blood. Extending the exhale helps avoid hyperventilation.

I use this prior to each dive. It helps get the heart rate down, then a good full breath and descend. Follow up with 3/4 strong recovery breaths on surfacing.

This is exactly what I mean by freedivers just don't realise it or call it something else.

What you're describing; the classic old school breathup of (1:2 ratio) 4s in and 8s out IS hyperventilation. Doing that for 4:00 is Quite a bit of hyperventilation.

Hissing/ restricting makes the HV even more effective, as back pressure in then lungs helps the transfer of CO2. So 4:00 of 4s in and 8s out (restricted) is A LOT of hyperventilation.

As you are doing HV, pretty gently, over a long period of time, you will not feel any symptoms of low CO2, but you are still going to become significantly hypocapnic/alkaline.

You can try breathing up for 4:00 with only diaphragm and no 's' sounds, and no modification of timing... most likely your contractions will start much earlier, because of starting with normal CO2 levels.

 

[Aquamacca]

This is exactly what I mean by freedivers just don't realise it or call it something else.

What you're describing; the classic old school breathup of (1:2 ratio) 4s in and 8s out IS hyperventilation. Doing that for 4:00 is Quite a bit of hyperventilation.

Hissing/ restricting makes the HV even more effective, as back pressure in then lungs helps the transfer of CO2. So 4:00 of 4s in and 8s out (restricted) is A LOT of hyperventilation.

As you are doing HV, pretty gently, over a long period of time, you will not feel any symptoms of low CO2, but you are still going to become significantly hypocapnic/alkaline.

You can try breathing up for 4:00 with only diaphragm and no 's' sounds, and no modification of timing... most likely your contractions will start much earlier, because of starting with normal CO2 levels.

Just to get this up front, I'm not contesting what Nathan is saying at all and I think this shows a really good example of people understanding different things. I always believed that hyperventilation was breathing faster and deeper than normal, where you experience tingling fingertips. (def). The breathing I'm talking about is passive, basically relaxing for 4 minutes. I can totally accept being wrong.

 

[Aquamacca]

Just had an interesting chat with a doctor in regards to this topic who agreed that the 4-8 type of thing definitely wasn't HV. By definition 'Hyper' adjective meaning energetic, ventilation + breathing. I'd be interested in seeing more on this topic if anyone has anything as it's commonly used for breathe-ups/relaxation pre-dive. I know I've used it my entire life for free diving/spearfishing.

 

[Nathan Vinski]

Just had an interesting chat with a doctor in regards to this topic who agreed that the 4-8 type of thing definitely wasn't HV. By definition 'Hyper' adjective meaning energetic, ventilation + breathing. I'd be interested in seeing more on this topic if anyone has anything as it's commonly used for breathe-ups/relaxation pre-dive. I know I've used it my entire life for free diving/spearfishing.

Finding the answer is very very easy.

Just prepare for a static with 0 control over your breathing. No timing, no restriction, no anything.. Just breath as you would while watching boring TV. Then simply inhale and start a static..

If your contractions come earlier than 'normal' you have, in fact, been hyperventilating. If they come at the same time as normal, then I stand corrected.

 

[J Campbell]

My opinion - hyperventilation covers a spectrum. At one end is the breathing you do when watching paint dry ( zero hyperventilation), and the other end is trying to blow up an air mattress as fast as possible. 99.99% of free diving breathe up occurs somewhere between these two extremes. For safe diving we want to be closer to the drying paint end. For static personal bests we want to move toward the air mattress end.