Help with breath hold (static dry apnea)

[grarena]

Well I’m an anesthesiologist and expert in the breathing area and what you describe on the 4 min example is absolutely hyperventilation. On a scale of 1-10 as my friends Nathan and J Campbell discuss you aren’t 10 fingers tingling but you are 8 at least. I’m not sure what doctor you talked to but he doesn’t seem to be an expert. I’m just being real here. Look I’m a damn good static apnea guy with a PB of 6:45 after less than a year of training and as J Campbell said when going for static personal best you need to hyperventilate and for dynamic hyperventilation can be dicey as hypoxia can come on quickly and deadly before CO2 drive kicks in.

 

[grarena]

Just did some research I want to share. The average breath (tidal volume) in average male is about 500cc. The normal breaths in a minute about 10. That’s about 5 liters of breathing each minute. This breathing keeps the CO2 at about 35-40 which is normal. Let’s look at the example above with breathing 4 sec in and 8 seconds out. This is breathing about 5 times a minute. Each breath however is close to 4 liters. That’s about 20 liters a minute roughly 4 times normal ventilation. It may not seem like hyperventilation but it certainly is. Now over 4 min this is 80 liters of ventilation instead of the normal 20 liters in 4 minutes. This will decrease CO2 from 40 to about 15-17. This means you wouid have less than 1/2 normal CO2 and it will take longer much longer for CO2 drive to kick in. I have graphs to show at different ventilations and times. Some at 29 liters a minute who passed out in 7 min. Others at 18 liters or 10 liters per minute. I hope this clears it up some.

 

[Nathan Vinski]

Just did some research I want to share. The average breath (tidal volume) in average male is about 500cc. The normal breaths in a minute about 10. That’s about 5 liters of breathing each minute. This breathing keeps the CO2 at about 35-40 which is normal. Let’s look at the example above with breathing 4 sec in and 8 seconds out. This is breathing about 5 times a minute. Each breath however is close to 4 liters. That’s about 20 liters a minute roughly 4 times normal ventilation. It may not seem like hyperventilation but it certainly is. Now over 4 min this is 80 liters of ventilation instead of the normal 20 liters in 4 minutes. This will decrease CO2 from 40 to about 15-17. This means you wouid have less than 1/2 normal CO2 and it will take longer much longer for CO2 drive to kick in. I have graphs to show at different ventilations and times. Some at 29 liters a minute who passed out in 7 min. Others at 18 liters or 10 liters per minute. I hope this clears it up some.

Exactly..

 

[Aquamacca]

Just did some research I want to share. The average breath (tidal volume) in average male is about 500cc. The normal breaths in a minute about 10. That’s about 5 liters of breathing each minute. This breathing keeps the CO2 at about 35-40 which is normal. Let’s look at the example above with breathing 4 sec in and 8 seconds out. This is breathing about 5 times a minute. Each breath however is close to 4 liters. That’s about 20 liters a minute roughly 4 times normal ventilation. It may not seem like hyperventilation but it certainly is. Now over 4 min this is 80 liters of ventilation instead of the normal 20 liters in 4 minutes. This will decrease CO2 from 40 to about 15-17. This means you wouid have less than 1/2 normal CO2 and it will take longer much longer for CO2 drive to kick in. I have graphs to show at different ventilations and times. Some at 29 liters a minute who passed out in 7 min. Others at 18 liters or 10 liters per minute. I hope this clears it up some.

You’re totally right and I wonder if I’ve just not explained what I’m doing properly. I took a photo of the reference ( Manual of freediving: Pelizzari) I originally started from. The basis was always aimed at relaxation. I’ve dropped in a pic. Let me know what you think.

 

[grarena]

Thanks for including pic and being receptive to learning what you are doing. I applaud that as many once they have an idea challenged become combative, indignant and angry lol. So I think this pic is using abdominal diaphragmatic breathing which is the core anyway. It’s hyperventilation that on the surface I could see hard to fathom. Once again I applaud your willingness to listen but doing this for 4 min will result in an extreme decrease in CO2. Those breaths are 3-4 liters and that’s 15-20 liters a minute.

 

[Aquamacca]

Thanks for including pic and being receptive to learning what you are doing. I applaud that as many once they have an idea challenged become combative, indignant and angry lol. So I think this pic is using abdominal diaphragmatic breathing which is the core anyway. It’s hyperventilation that on the surface I could see hard to fathom. Once again I applaud your willingness to listen but doing this for 4 min will result in an extreme decrease in CO2. Those breaths are 3-4 liters and that’s 15-20 liters a minute.

No worries at all. I’d rather get all this right and understood and I agree it’s easy to fall into a close minded trap. Thanks for your input. I’m going to explore better methods of breath ups/ relaxation that avoid hyperventilation as I’ve always considered it a no go for safety reasons. Thanks again.

 

[Nathan Vinski]

No worries at all. I’d rather get all this right and understood and I agree it’s easy to fall into a close minded trap. Thanks for your input. I’m going to explore better methods of breath ups/ relaxation that avoid hyperventilation as I’ve always considered it a no go for safety reasons. Thanks again.

Well this is where things get interesting..

If you've been doing that breath-up for a long time with no problems. its probably OK to keep doing it.

As I mentioned earlier, most freedivers hyperventilate a lot, and then adamantly defend against using "any hyperventilation". The truth is, there's no inherent danger with hyperventilation itself, AS LONG AS: you can hyperventilate pretty much the exact same very single time (which you are probably doing).

In my experience (and I would assume in most cases) Hyperventilation;

1. Can Significantly DECREASE dynamic performance
2. Can Significantly INCREASE static performance
3. Depth is complicated. If your diving is limited TRULY by hypoxia then it can decrease your performance, but for 99% of people this is not the case. If your performance is limited by other things (Pressure, equalization, tension, "relaxation", panic/mental-hypoxia...) which 99% of freedivers are limited by, light to moderate-Hyperventilation will have either No effect, or a Positive effect on your performance.

The main thing is, Know/learn exactly what you are doing. If you are hyperventilating, acknowledge it, analyse it, and understand the potential benefits/negatives of using it. Then do the best thing for you, and the type of diving you are doing.

Its also important to note that different individuals react differently to hyper/hypocapnia. I've very tolerant to low-CO2, and even if I hyperventilate to the maximum, there's very little effect on my diving, and i'd still get contractions way before my limit. Others are much less tolerant, and even 1:00 of harder breathing can mean a blackout "without any warning".

 

[7BDiver]

I'm a little confused, was under the impression hyperventilation was a matter of oxygen uptake being anything higher than needed for a normal breathing period. How can one tell if they are exchanging the correct amount of CO2 as to not drive it too low. It is suggested to exhale longer since it takes more time to exchange CO2. Is watching paint dry with 4" in 4" out rhythm correct compared to a 4" in 6/8" out?