Hemoglobin levels and blue/purple lips

[Pezman]

Here's a question -- does anyone know if Hb increases are due primarily to increased hematocrit or due to increases in the Hgb in each red blood cell (or is such an adaptation even possible)?

There have been posts in the past talking about how natural adaptations are better than, say, improvements coming from using EPO, with the "thickness" of the blood being the reason. It seems like an adaptation that could increase the blood's abilty to carry O2 w/o increasing the rbc too much would be the preferred adaptation.

 

[Alun]

i believe HCt and Hb tend to increase hand in hand. usually hematocrit is about 3x Hb.
eg.
15g/dl.... 45% Hct.
21g/dl... 63% Hct.

i was recently measured at 17.0 and 50.5%
50.5 divide by 3 = 16.8...

 

[Pezman]

Understood. I guess that, said differently, I'm wondering if that 3x ratio can be increased.

 

[efattah]

The ratio of hemoglobin to hematocrit depends on the MCV (mean corpuscular size). In other words, if you have few red blood cells, but giant red blood cells, your blood behaves differently than if you have many red blood cells, but small cells.

Interestingly, I heard about a recent study (Fred Buyle was involved), and they found that MCV changed as a freediving adaptation.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[Mlungu]

I think it is a waste of time in trying to increase apnea time by increasing your HB by the odd gram or two alone.

There are difficulties in measuring it accurately for a start, Hb reflective photometers are hopelessly unreliable. Even the lab FBC can vary by 0.5-1g per dl each time you do a sample in the hospital. Probably have better results training in the Himalyers or the Andes or give yourself a course of erythropoetin.

 

[Mlungu]

Originally posted by Pezman
[
There have been posts in the past talking about how natural adaptations are better than, say, improvements coming from using EPO, with the "thickness" of the blood being the reason. It seems like an adaptation that could increase the blood's abilty to carry O2 w/o increasing the rbc too much would be the preferred adaptation. [/B]

Pezman,

Agreed, I think you have hit the nail on the head.

 

[Alun]

yes, it varies a lot, but the actual values aren't that important - to me anyway. what i personally hope to see is a trend over time. it helps to measure your Hb at the same time of day, with the same level of hydration (e.g. first thing in the morning) and take the blood sample in *exactly* same way each time.

let's be clear that EPO isn't something people should be taking themselves of course - only when prescribed by doctors to treat a medical illness - severe anaemia etc.

ps: i used to live in Swansea!... from 1995 to 1999.

 

[fpernett]

In fact, I train in the Andes.
I don't reccomend using EPO, the high viscosity associated with high haematocrit can cause miocardial infarction, renal failure and brain ischemia.
It's quite different when this increases physiologically.
I think nobody said that you will increase your apnea time by highing up your haemoglobin.
The human being is just curious about adaptations and all we want is to find a measure of that adaptation or a relationship.
As Eric said, there is some kind of anemias, where hb is much lower, than expected from haematocrit, mainly pherropenic anemias.

 

[Mlungu]

I think altitude training certainly helps, I have had personel experience of this in SA. I used to live in Pretoria which is 6000 ft above sea level. I found my apnea time much improved at the coast and the air was like breathing in soup!

Coming back to Hb again, does anybody know of any smokers who dive or are good at apnoea. Heavy smoking induces a non-myeloid polycythaemia ( increase in RBC'S and Hb) due to carbon monoxide, however most of my patients are very short of breath because their heart and lungs are f***ed!!!! I think most freedivers are too health conscious!

Alun, yeah, I agree EPO is definately prescription only. (greetings from sunny swansea!!)

 

[fpernett]

Yes, I think is different a person with cor pulmonale or sleep apnea than a healthy athlete who trains hypoxemic.
This is a long time discussion about the side effects of hypoxic training but it has been extrapolations from the side effects of diseases that produce hypoxemia.
The training is different, mainly because is a person in good physical condition.
I'm living at 8580 feet over sea level and train CW at a lake at 10230 feet over sea level.

 

[AltSaint]

Mlungu

Lee Donnelly and Lotta Erikson are both accomplished freedivers.
( Lotta just taking the Women's static WR ).

I think they'be both been know to light up on occasion.

I tried to have my haemoglobin level measured at the weekend. I was stabbed 5 times, and even at the highest level, hardly anything came out. Early blood shift, I reckon.

I scored 15.3 g/dl in the end. I travel into London every day, using the underground, so that can't be good, can it?

 

[Mlungu]

Originally posted by AltSaint
Mlungu

Lee Donnelly and Lotta Erikson are both accomplished freedivers.
( Lotta just taking the Women's static WR ).

I think they'be both been know to light up on occasion.


I scored 15.3 g/dl in the end. I travel into London every day, using the underground, so that can't be good, can it?

Altsaint,

I reckon there is a difference in the odd fag now and again compared to heavy smoking 20-30. The London underground is definately the ideal place for apnoea training, especially if your standing, packed in sardine-style under someone's smelly armpit, holding your breath

 

[naiad]

Originally posted by Mlungu
The London underground is definately the ideal place for apnoea training, especially if your standing, packed in sardine-style under someone's smelly armpit, holding your breath

I agree!

Lucia

 

[Paul Kotik]

HEMOGLOBIN CHANGES

My hemoglobin level has fallen an average of 0.5 g/dl per week over the past 10 weeks. It was about 16 and is now about 11.

Starting to get quite interesting.

 

[bam bam]

I got my levels tested at the weekend.
I had put it off for quite a while as I hate needleS:waterwork

but my buddy basically bullied me into jabbing myself with a needle to let some blood flow!

Joking aside

I only got 14.6, it was measured a few time for reliablitly.

Interestingly over the last month I have been progressing at a fairly steady rate, very comfortably.

so feel that ok more is definatly better, but it isn't the be all to end all!

getting the right warm-ups before the dive and mental focus is far more important.

 

[Will]

Pelizzari is renowned for having low haem levels. During his training his haematocrit plummeted, so much so that his doctor rang him up and asked if he was in hospital yet. In fact he was just on his way out to break twoworld records...

...even now without any training he cranked out 88m constant weight (monofin).