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Herbert did 95 constant!

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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I don't understand; if Herbert tried 100m in constant weight three times, then when did he make the 97m prerequisite? The AIDA website said he only had a 95m prerequisite.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 
I'm sorry, I misunderstood. Three attempts at FI, then one attempt in CW. Sorry.

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 
To reach maximum depth, the water should be as cold as possible on the bottom, this is a key to the hypothermic diving system... but I guess you've never heard of that.

Uh sorry great Eric - of course all the wisdom is yours :)

I don't understand; if Herbert tried 100m in constant weight three times, then when did he make the 97m prerequisite? The AIDA website said he only had a 95m prerequisite.

As I already tried to clarify, Herbert made only one attempt in CW. He was successful in achieving -95m on his first try.

greetings to canada ;)
 
st3fan,
what was the surface temperature over there? just wondering, because the conditions sound identical to what i dive in. i think you probably have a warmer surface temp than we have. ours briefly peaked at 20C during a heatwave for a week. already it's down to 16C.
 
Hi Alun,
in a hot summer like this one the temperature rises up to 26 degrees on the surface. 8m below, the temp drops down to about 12 degree and goes down to steady 4 degree at about 25-45m.

The Millstättersee - where the competition took place - is about 580m above sea level and has a maximum depth of about 144m.

20039214825_Weather-20030902.jpg
 
ah... not so similar after all! :)

wow!... 26C, that sounds perfect.
it looks like a really beautiful area too. you're lucky!

as i said, this summer was exceptionally warm for us. normally the surface temp barely reaches 17C during the summer. it's 4/5C from 10m down all year round.

this is what i see before i dive :(

oops...photo did not upload.
 
Originally posted by efattah
However, his 95m record was in a lake. 95m in a lake is equivalent to 95m/1.03 = 92.2m in the ocean, as far as pressure & equalizing go.

So, going back to Herbert's progression:
2001: 89m OCEAN
2002: 92m OCEAN
2003: 95m LAKE = 92.2m OCEAN
93m OCEAN in Cyprus with eardrum rupture & B/O

So, Herbert still has not conquered his 93m 'demon' from Cyprus, and Stepanek's 93m CW record remains the record as far as pressure goes.

Herbert's 95m is still very amazing, but it is very ironic that he is reaching the same pressure as his 2002 pb of 92m in the ocean...


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

To stop your speculations I will add some important infos.

In cyprus Herbert did his last equalisation at about 60-65m!
As the visibility was excellent and the disc "seemed" to be near he decided to go for it..... The consequence was a ripped ear-drum brcause of that extreme vertigo on the ascent.

In his training sessions before his attempts he consistently managed to equalize at in between 85-90m. So from the pressure point of view he could easily have done more than -100m.

I do not want to lecture you :) (just joking) , but there is no point in your pressure-'demon' speculations this time. Maybe he managed to apply the famous frentzel-fattah technique ;)
 
Martin & Kirk (who were training with Herbert in Cyprus) told me that Herbert was having equalizing problems during the training, managing only 67-80m. Herbert wrote on freediving.at that he felt he had 12m more for the competition.

That's where I got the info. It seems now that he has improved his equalizing.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 
Stefan, what is your problem? Eric is not crapping on Herbert, only pointing out facts. Take it easy dude. Lighten up. Everyone here has nothing but respect for Herbert, and we also know he's a good guy. I know for a fact that Eric talks about his own dives in the same analytical manner.....it's not about "who's better".
Erik Y.
 
Did Herbert use wet equalization or did he use a mouthfill? Is there any theoretical depth limit if one uses wet eq.? If the sinuses are flooded does any pressure still need to be applied? Also, wasn't Martin a champion finswimmer? How come he does not use a mono?
Jim
 
Sorry to jump in here late, but a quick one for Eric - I was reading this morning where you mentioned that there's a big gap between the top group (the 90m guys) and the second group (in the 70's)... what do you see as the reason for this? Is it something physiological that the top group possess, some new training method, or something else?

Cheers, enjoying the read.
 
I just want to make a quick comment on the differences in salt vs. fresh water.

Fresh water is less dense and the pressures are reached at different depths. I realized this, first hand, a few years back when I was diving on this old schooner in 186' of water. I was wearing a couple of dive computers at the time, before I dove mix, and one read 186' while the other read 180'. I was pretty ticked that one could read so differently than the other, but once I got back on the boat, and my mind was cleared from the narcosis, I realized that one computer was calibrated in feet salt water while the other was calibrated in feet freshwater.

I can't rememeber the exact numbers, and I am too tired to go look them up right now;) , but I think that salt water increases by .445 psi every foot and freshwater increases by .433 every foot. If you multiply it out you can see where one gauge would read 186' and the other 180'. You can basically double the difference that I just stated when talking about the AMAZING depths the Herbert is reaching.

Since freshwater is less dense, and gives your fins less to push off of, I could see where free immersion would be easier than constant ballast in fresh water, although how "easy" is anything at 100meters!

BTW: I have it on good advice that Martin got a mono. As a matter of fact, I just ordered a similar, but softer, version of the same fin. Now if I could just do half of what he does.;)

Speaking of monos, I just got my latest copy of FREEDIVER magazine, and thought that I saw a picture of Kirk Krack wearing a mono in Cyprus. Is that true?:confused: If it is, then when did he switch to monos??

Jon
 
Kirk started using a mono for deep dives shortly before Cyprus. He still uses bifins while spotting others and doing miscellaneous stuff.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 
Fresh water versus salt water

@efattah: I think Your statement in a DB-Article is very accurate:
"Unfortunately the whole issue about setting a record (at least for constant ballast) seems more about knowing how to get good conditions, rather than knowing how to dive well."

After reading about Your record attempt in May 2001 in the treacherous waters near Miami (currents!) it seems to be wiser to prefer lakes for record attempts. The "hypothermic diving system" seems to work for me also, according to my experience.

Still I would like to mention also the "other side" of lakes:

1. Are lakes calmer?

The surface of a lake may also become quite choppy, making breath-ups really difficult (at least there are no bottom currents to be expected!).

2. Equalization is harder in cold water

By and large fresh water is colder than sea water at depth (Vancouver excluded :)).
Conclusion: generally, equalization will be harder in fresh water. The frenzel fattah mouthfill technique has helped me a lot (thanks!) and enabled me to increase my personal best substantially inspite of a very limited training schedule. However any equalization technique, including the mouthfill technique is getting harder in water temperatures around 4°C.

3. Equalization depends on the relative pressure increase between surface and target depth.

Let's suppose we are freediving in a lake in Tibet at an altitude of 5500mt: At the surface we start with 50% of atmospheric pressure. At a depth of -50mt this pressure will have increased by approximately 5 extra atmospheres (we don't split hairs now by differentiating between bar, atmsophere, kg/cm², ... they may be used interchangeably). The ambient pressure will have increased from 0.5 atm to 5.5 atm, relatively spoken: by 11 times.

Conclusion: equalization will be just as difficult as diving from sealevel to -100mt (where the absolute pressure will have also increased by 11 times). Less density of fresh water will (almost) never compensate the disadvantage of starting at a higher altitude.

Herbert's last world-record dive on Sep 04 to -95mt CW at Millstatt Lake analyzed:

First I denote:
P(A) = Pressure at the surface of a lake at altitude
P(DA) = (Total) pressure at a depth of a lake at altitude
P(SL) = Pressure at sea level (assumed average of 1013mb, practically: 1)
P(DSL) = Total pressure at an equivalent depth at counted from sea level. (what we want to resolve, [X])

The altitude of Millstatt Lake = 588 Meters.
To obtain the air pressure P at the surface of Millstatt Lake I use the barometric formula:
P(A) = P(SL) × exp (-0,122×Altitude in km's)

P(A) = 1013 mbar × exp(-0,122×0,588) = 931 mbar (rounded to mb)

95 mt of fresh water cause a pressure of 9,5×980 mb = 9310 mb.
Hence the total absolute pressure at -95mt (air + water) will be:
P(DA) = 931 + 9310 = 10241 mbar.

Now we use: P(A) / P(DA) = P(SL) / P(DSL)

931/10241 = 1/x
10241 = 931 X
X = 11

Finally we calculate the Virtual depth for an equivalent dive at sea level:
VD= (X-1)×10 = 10 × 10 = 100 Metres.

Conclusion: Regarding equalization Herbert is able to dive to -100mt CW in the ocean.

Actually his attempt to -100mt in CW on the next day was partially successful: He was able to manage equalization but had LMC at the surface, because this was done only shortly after his successful FI-World Record to -100mt under stressful conditions. Applying again the same formulas Herbert should be able to equalize for a CW dive to -105mt in the ocean (in an inverted position).

You are welcomed to look at my complete treatise about Freediving at altitude.

Being someone that represents divers going to "intermediate depths" [=most of us :cool:], I found out:
It's easier to make personal bests in clear and warm sea water (as opposed to cold and dark fresh water) and I am not surprised to struggle with my last equalization much sooner at some altitude in 4°C of fresh water as I would in a warm, crystal clear and light flooded ocean, starting with maximum air pressure (~1013 mb).

I wish You all safe, joyful and successful dives,

Gerald
 
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This is interesting stuff. Congratulations to the 'Flying Fish'. One other factor didn't come up. At 500+ meters elevation, how much does the 4% less O2 have on breath hold? I tried a few statics at three or four times this height and there was a noticeable difference.
Aloha
Bill
 
Oxygen household

@Bill

All are welcomed to look at my complete treatise about Freediving at altitude, that is taking also into account the oxygen household at altitude.
B.T.W: congratulations to Herbert's new record. Way to go!

cheers
Gerald
 
hi

st3fan thanks for that Pic on the last page of the comp lake, the scenery is really nice and far different to where I live :)

cheers
 
At the Carinthians Herbert Nitsch sets an amazing WR in CW, but only manages 6:04 static (a mere 70% of his PB). Why such a discrepancy between concurrent performance in different disciplines? I have noticed the same inverse relation between dynamic and static, and even between dynamic and 'dry dynamic' (hypoxic running).

Has anyone tried no-fins CW in both fresh and salt water? This is an interesting one because there is an advantage to each medium. Fresh water's low viscosity, whilst detrimental to propulsion, will prolong the critical glide phase of the stroke. Thus in salt water you will reach a greater speed with each stroke, but slow down from that speed quicker. Does anyone know the respective coefficients of friction of fresh and saltwater?

On an opinionated note I fail to see the significance of Herbert being "the first human being to have passed the 100m barrier using solely human propulsion." I am pretty sure you could invent an underwater version of the bicycle (the most energy efficient form of land transport after the Segway), mount it on a vertical track and pedal far deeper than 100m on 'human propulsion.' I believe freediving denotes something that FI lacks, and I think the real milestone is still 100m CW, and hopefully one day 100m unassisted CW...
 
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