Herbert Nitsch Recovering Well after achieving World Record depth

[chrismar]

After all this, I'm looking forward to hearing what Herbert thinks. Does he think it was successful? What about if AIDA judges were there (as they were going to be until the last minute)? If they gave him a red card, would he still think it was a success?

 

[freeln2]

Sorry, i'm not a member of AIDA (neither SSI, CMAS, FIPSAS, USAA, etc. etc... ;(

 

[efattah]

After all this, I'm looking forward to hearing what Herbert thinks. Does he think it was successful? What about if AIDA judges were there (as they were going to be until the last minute)? If they gave him a red card, would he still think it was a success?

Well, theoretically Herbert could have reached the surface, done the protocol, got the white card, gone down to deco, still felt bad, and then gone to the hospital. The rules only state you need to be okay for 30 seconds...

 

[Haydn]

Yes Eric, and that is the only problem.

The rules didn't tell Hilary after he returned to base camp, to take his goggles off, flick an OK sign and say he was OK, all within 30 seconds or else they wouldn't ratify his climb. But I bet he did do all three pretty soon after. The thing is, some society or climbing association didn't demand it. They just asked Hilary to come back alive.

So why rob Herbert of his dive (assuming he received no physical assistance until after he took his first breath), just because he did'nt do them either?

The only problem with Herberts dive was the rules.

When I swam the Channel, one of the protocols I had to jump through, was to tell the Channel Swimming Association I was going to do it, and pay them some money. Then I swam the Channel. Then the CSA ratified my swim as the Worlds First Backstroke. The thing is, had I not of told the CSA, but just went and did my swim, I would still have been the Worlds first.......but it would not have counted.

The rules must change. They should first support the athlete, and second support the rest of the community. Someone from Aida should have been there to support one of their own.

It will be forever a shame when the second person to reach 1000 feet is given the accolade of first. Lets not disqualify our people by silly rules.

 

[FreeRestriction]

Yes Eric, and that is the only problem.

The rules didn't tell Hilary after he returned to base camp, to take his goggles off, flick an OK sign and say he was OK, all within 30 seconds or else they wouldn't ratify his climb. But I bet he did do all three pretty soon after. The thing is, some society or climbing association didn't demand it. They just asked Hilary to come back alive.

So why rob Herbert of his dive (assuming he received no physical assistance until after he took his first breath), just because he did'nt do them either?

The only problem with Herberts dive was the rules.

Theres a difference between making it to a specific spot on a map and extending the maxinum possible human single breath dive depth. If it requires immediate medical attention that went BEYOND what his body is capable of on its own and must be consisered a failed attempt to prove a human can do the dive. Medical devices to save people isnt whats trying to be proven successful. We know we can save people who otherwise would die. But can a human dive to 800ft without them? Not yet...

 

[Haydn]

That is a good point. But where in the rules does it suggest a dive is only successful if no medical treatment is required.

I would suggest (again assuming he had no physical assistance between the breathold and the first breath), that the dive was successful, despite Herbert hurting himself. This only proves his body was not really capable of a safe dive, but it was capable of the dive.

Climbers too return with horrendous injuries, and receive life saving amputations etc. Nobody robs them. And yes, without medical intervention, many would die.
Was Herberts injuries that severe? I think perhaps they were. But does that matter?

Lets try this.........Should the only protocol be surviving?

 

[FreeRestriction]

That is a good point. But where in the rules does it suggest a dive is only successful if no medical treatment is required.

I would suggest (again assuming he had no physical assistance between the breathold and the first breath), that the dive was successful, despite Herbert hurting himself. This only proves his body was not really capable of a safe dive, but it was capable of the dive.

Climbers too return with horrendous injuries, and receive life saving amputations etc. Nobody robs them. And yes, without medical intervention, many would die.
Was Herberts injuries that severe? I think perhaps they were. But does that matter?

Lets try this.........Should the only protocol be surviving?

I understand where your coming from using the climbers as an example.
Now im not basing my opinion that it was a failed attempt on any rules. The base for my opinion is that in freediving its generally an example of the human bodies abilitys where climbing is an all out what ever it takes to survive. To answer your question i dont think just surviving with any medical technology required to do so can be considered a success. Now if he did the dive and then survived on his own but ended up paralized from the waiste down some how because he refused any medical attention, i could possibly consider that a success because he did hit the goal depth and came back and survived. At a great cost? Yes.. But the human body would then be proven capable of the dive.

Many divers have lost hearing freediving yet continue to dive. If the risk is worth the reward and you take it and survive on your own then its a success.

 

[Simos]

That is a good point. But where in the rules does it suggest a dive is only successful if no medical treatment is required.

I would suggest (again assuming he had no physical assistance between the breathold and the first breath), that the dive was successful, despite Herbert hurting himself. This only proves his body was not really capable of a safe dive, but it was capable of the dive.

Climbers too return with horrendous injuries, and receive life saving amputations etc. Nobody robs them. And yes, without medical intervention, many would die.
Was Herberts injuries that severe? I think perhaps they were. But does that matter?

Lets try this.........Should the only protocol be surviving?

I hear you but I don't fully agree Haydn. If you want to have world records that more than 1 person competes for, there always HAVE to have some rules, written or implicit, to ensure people are competing on a fair basis.

If someone wants to do their own thing then they can do whatever they please - no problems there. Apart from the fact that you can't say it's a record. Not that it makes it less of an achievement, not at all. Some achievements are so massive that who cares if they are records with rules etc

By the way, just conceptually, why do you have an issue with this being a record if Herbert was even carried to the surface? In NLT, you are anyway assisted to the surface, what does it matter if you have a buoy lifting the diver up or a bunch of freedivers doing so?

 

[Haydn]

Being lifted to the surface by a bag or a person. Very interesting dilemma.

I agree that the body should survive the dive. The whole concept of freediving is reaching the goal and returning safely. That's what Kennedy said about the Apollo missions.

Yes Armstrong would always have been first on the moon, but if the lunar module failed to get lift off, he would not have been the first to return safely.

Freediving is 100% a matter of what can the human body achieve, without debilitating damage. We can all accept some hearing loss etc. Climbers accept frostbite etc.

And many freedivers could add 50m to their deepest dive, if they too accepted they would very likely die in the attempt. The whole purpose is to get the depth and return safely.

But, at Herberts level, competition rules should not be applied. His dive robs no one of a place on the podium. So why should competition protocols rob him? Most would say in order to preserve the integrity of the previous record holders dive and to ensure no advantage is gained by him not having to do what the other diver had to do by protocols. Makes it a level playing field.

I suggest get rid of the protocols also level the playing field. We should need only to rely on the integrity of a freedive renowned team of observers to make the judgement, not on whether Herbert jumped through a few extra hoops in the first 30 seconds after he takes his first breath.

Its what happens between the breaths that count.
..................

Off to swim for a week now. Time to get wet. Yippeeee.

 

[trux]

To conclude the endless discussion, I added Herbert's dive to the ranking database. It is marked with a red card and a note DQ SP, as it would happen if judges were there: APNEA.cz ranking - NLT (at the bottom of the page)

If there is anybody who does not agree, feel free to submit an official protest. Do not forget to attach a 200€ cheque with it rofl

Being in the ranking, it confirms the achievement while also respecting the still standing rules

 

[Stephan Whelan]

One interesting dynamic people haven't really talked about here is the impact and pressure of corporate sponsors. There is immense pressure (sometimes) from sponsors to control how a record attempt is viewed publicly.

Breitling will want to be associated with a successful dive as it helps strengthen their brand.

On the other side they will want to control what information is coming out about the attempt should it be unsuccessful or if Herbert got injured in any long term way. I was talking to a member of the mainstream press today and he made the point that we haven't heard any further news for 7 days - very strange considering that he is supposed to be well on the road to recovery.

At the end of the day having a clear set of rules for everyone to follow should (and I accept it doesn't always) allow for people to clearly see and judge whether someone is successful in their attempt - outside of any external perceptions or influences.

I think what Herbert did was totally amazing and should be considered that he got to the depth...

...however whether it is classified as a world record or personal best should be down to the rules. Equally i'd like to hear more clarity on what exactly happened to him, how he is responding to treatment right now and what the long term prognosis is before coming to a conclusion on how successful the dive was.

 

[trux]

Yes, that's perfectly true and valid also for the recent NLT/FRC dives of Seb Murat. Despite that the sponsor hired five professional bloggers for reporting from the event, all they managed to pull out, were some twenty lines on a good day, and often nothing at all, or just some silly nonsense. We did not get almost any information about what's going on. Seb allegedly dove to 150m, but there was no word about why they did not continue a few days longer to meet at least the original target depth of 214m, or even 240+m as then claimed to be the target later. After some complaints and insisting, they answered some selected question, but the entire event and its outcome remain totally mysterious. I hope Seb did not injure himself too, though the abrupt end without coming even close to the target depth, or without equaling the claimed PB of 195m, are a bit strange and indicate that they might have been a major problem. We can only speculate whether the problem was financial, logistical, technical, or a health issue. I just hope Seb will tell us later, though I think, the pressure from the sponsor, as Stephan writes, may gag him too.

 

[Simos]

Yes, that's perfectly true and valid also for the recent NLT/FRC dives of Seb Murat. Despite that the sponsor hired five professional bloggers for reporting from the event, all they managed to pull out, were some twenty lines on a good day, and often nothing at all, or just some silly nonsense. We did not get almost any information about what's going on. Seb allegedly dove to 150m, but there was no word about why they did not continue a few days longer to meet at least the original target depth of 214m, or even 240+m as then claimed to be the target later. After some complaints and insisting, they answered some selected question, but the entire event and its outcome remain totally mysterious. I hope Seb did not injure himself too, though the abrupt end without coming even close to the target depth, or without equaling the claimed PB of 195m, are a bit strange and indicate that they might have been a major problem. We can only speculate whether the problem was financial, logistical, technical, or a health issue. I just hope Seb will tell us later, though I think, the pressure from the sponsor, as Stephan writes, may gag him too.

I don't know details obviously but I was always under the impression somehow that there would be a two week period to try and break the record - obviously Seb was increasing depth gradually up to the point he felt comfortable so it seems like they just run out of time in a way (though would love to know what the limiting factors were).

Clearly the bloggers could only give out certain info, which I think is understandable (and of course a bit frustrating at times).

Still I do hope too we get a bit from info from both Herbert and Seb at some point.

On Stephan's point, the one thing I did wonder lately is whether the Suunto-AIDA relationship will become an issue for more and more top athletes, who seem to be always sponsored from watch manufacturers

 

[trux]

I don't know details obviously but I was always under the impression somehow that there would be a two week period to try and break the record...

Yes, the end was originally planned for today anyway, but seeing Seb did his very first dive to 100m only two days ago, and started progressing, it makes no sense to cut it abruptly unless there was some major problem. Or he could at least do another last dive today. If Seb was really on his way, it would be nonsense from the marketing point of view too, not to give him a few days more.

 

[Simos]

Yes, the end was originally planned for today anyway, but seeing Seb did his very first dive to 100m only two days ago, and started progressing, it makes no sense to cut it abruptly unless there was some major problem. Or he could at least do another last dive today. If Seb was really on his way, it would be nonsense from the marketing point of view too, not to give him a few days more.

Makes sense but then again thinking about the logistics and given that the team was all made up from volunteers I am guessing, who must have flights back to their place etc it might not have been possible. Doesn't sound like it was a question of a day or two more anyway..

 

[Bill]

I protest trux. Wouldn't it be better to just asterisk the ranking entry than to report a non-existing red card? You'll have to wait until I sign a deal with a sponsor to get your fee. Sorry about that.

 

[trux]

The red card does not mean at all the record is invalid from the individual point of view anyone can have. Everyone if free to judge as he/she feels. The classification only tells it is invalid from the point of view of AIDA rules (it was regularly annonced as an AIDA record attempt in advance). Perhpas if Guinness (or an existing freediving federation) recognize it as a valid record, I am ready to reclasify it accordingly too.

 

[freeln2]

When i got the book about the Greek spongedivers ("THE BELLSTONE"), my wife began to read it before me. Once, she asked me sly:
- How do you call it what you do when appear on the surface?
- "Surface Protocol"!
- Well, the comrades of the spongediver just put a live cigarette between his teeth. If he could smoke then he was Ok. And now, make a circle by your fingers, boys and girls. Say: "I am OK"... Children games...

 

[Drejcha]

meh... fu** the dilemmas...
personally, the only thing I wanna see right now is that tall long-legged skinny guy laughing and checking nice chicks with that cheeky smile of his.
we'll talk about spanking for being naughty later.

 

[chrismar]

One interesting dynamic people haven't really talked about here is the impact and pressure of corporate sponsors. There is immense pressure (sometimes) from sponsors to control how a record attempt is viewed publicly.

Breitling will want to be associated with a successful dive as it helps strengthen their brand.

On the other side they will want to control what information is coming out about the attempt should it be unsuccessful or if Herbert got injured in any long term way. I was talking to a member of the mainstream press today and he made the point that we haven't heard any further news for 7 days - very strange considering that he is supposed to be well on the road to recovery.

At the end of the day having a clear set of rules for everyone to follow should (and I accept it doesn't always) allow for people to clearly see and judge whether someone is successful in their attempt - outside of any external perceptions or influences.

I think what Herbert did was totally amazing and should be considered that he got to the depth...

...however whether it is classified as a world record or personal best should be down to the rules. Equally i'd like to hear more clarity on what exactly happened to him, how he is responding to treatment right now and what the long term prognosis is before coming to a conclusion on how successful the dive was.

That's what I was alluding to before - the lack of impartial observers. The direct team have a massive vested interest. That's really the point of judges with all these things.

I still think of No Limits as like absolute speed records on the salt flats. Dangerous, equipment-driven and more a test of a team than an individual. No limits without judges from any organisation would is like claiming the world absolute speed record without proof or impartial observers.

Just a quick note: Herbert is an incredibly strong athlete. He has set world records in every AIDA discipline - lots of them. What I'm saying should not take away from that at all. In the same way, if Michael Schumacher decided to set an absolute land speed record, I think that would not prove him to be the best driver in the world, but equally it would not take away from his other achievements.