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Herbert Nitsch Recovering Well after achieving World Record depth

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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More news of the dive:
NEWS OF HERBERT | www.diveandphoto.net | phil simha

And:

How many humans can drive a superfast vehicle to achive a land speed record?
How many humas can reach 200+ meters and return to the surface alive?
If this is not an ultimate test of an individual then what is?

Miha
 
If you're not too concerned about what kind of condition they'll be in when they surface, just about anyone with some chest flexibility and a four minute static could teabag dunk to 200+ and come back alive. They'll likely have ruptured something and/or gotten DCS, but they'll probably live.

As for who could pilot a land-speed record? Again, just about anyone who has racing experience. Do you really think Richard Noble and Andy Green are the greatest drivers of all time?
 
Reactions: Goran Colak
As I understand it from the above link, Herbert had to be assisted to the surface from the last ten meters of the breath hold part of the dive, before any ox-detox.
Following my own personal freediving philosophy, and this is probably following an AIDA protocol of sorts, I'd say the dive was not a success. I guess that was my limitation, no assistance during the actual freedive.
But protocols are protocols. Others here seem to focus on the mere fact, that it was physically possible to No Limits freedive to now 249 meters (816 feet), assistance or not.
I'm sure that if Herbert should try again for 900 or 1000 feet and accounts for what ever was unaccounted for on this dive, and he makes it with nothing serious at all (preferably with judges there this time), then this big ass footnote on this one won't matter in the long run.
 
Thank you for the link. A very positive outcome of it all is the same as from the recent Yasemin Dalkilic event. The safety systems worked.
I'm buying a Breitling ...
 

While it makes sense on the surface of it, I think you are a bit biased by CWT and CNF. Why does it matter if you are assisted to the surface? In NLT you are assisted to the surface by definition. Would you consider this a successful dive if Herbert just stayed in the sled, shot up to the surface (unassisted by divers) and as a result was in a very bad state (touch wood)?
 

I guess I just want the diver to be in adequate control of his/herself throughout the journey, so that physical assistance for the sake of an emergency is not necessary. For it to be considered a successful dive, anyway. It's sort of the same discussion as if the dive ends in blackout, what does it matter if the person has to be revived or something? He/she made it, right? But this is not the established philosophy for what ever reasons. And I guess I personally believe that partly incapacitated because of DCS (or what ever it was here) falls under the same principle.

But one can easily decide on the opposite, same with the Homer-carried-down-Everest analogy. I understand your perspective, if a person is assisted by weights and lift devices and other gear, why not just let them be allowed to be assisted by people as well? It's just not sportive tradition really, like I remember something about a collapsed Italian marathon runner who was assisted by officials across the finishing line in the 1908 Olympics and then disqualified, so it's an old principle.

But I will admit, regardless of anything, we're all still gonna talk about a 249, regardless of footnotes or philosophies. Herbert is still the man.
 
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Don't get me wrong I don't feel strongly either way, was just interested to see how different people view 'success' for these kind of dives - at the end of the day, if an AIDA record is not the starting objective then it just boils down to what objectives each has in their minds when the dive starts and most importantly, Herbert's. Look forward to hopefully hearing his view on the dive soon.
 
Thank you for the link. A very positive outcome of it all is the same as from the recent Yasemin Dalkilic event. The safety systems worked. I'm buying a Breitling ...

You are welcome

Not for record but because it's cool... It gives feeling of freedom. The sense is neither in adrenalin nor in fear of death - just the reverse, i love life and so i do this sport and succeed in it.
(c) Annelie Pompe

 
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I want that Gul wetsuit in Annelies video! I´ve long tried to convince surf suit companies that they should make a smoothskin version.

- J
 
After reading about all the problems with DCS I am very surprised that noone is writing what I`m thinking right now. There is one solution that would take away all risk of DCS after a NLT dive. This method has been used in commercial diving.
Example: A commercial diver does a long dive to 50m on regular air. He then goes quickly to the surface. He is now guaranteed a severe DCS, but in a matter of few minutes (less than 5min?) on the surface he goes straight to a hyperbaric chamber. There he is (re)pressurised down to something like 20m while he breathes 100% O2. Then he does a slow, slow decompression.
If you can get out of a dive like this, a 1000ft NLT-dive would be peanuts in regard of DCS.
You just need a hyperbaric chamber on your boat
Bjarte
 

Maybe the sled itself should be a hyperbaric chamber Bjarte :thankyou
 
Maybe the sled itself should be a hyperbaric chamber Bjarte
Haha!
But seriously... it`s very similar to what`s been done today, recomressing and breathing O2. Eric Fattah said that it`s been a long time since we passed the limit where an athlete could just finish the dive with normal breathing. To me breathing 100% O2 (especially at depth) is a form of treatment.
Doing recompression out of water would be much safer, and you could monitor the athlete to keep him safe. The dive itself would be the same. Just as hard when it comes to breathhold and equalisation. In my eyes this method would not take anything away from a perforance. And he (Herbert) wouldn`t need to do cnf the last bit of the dive. He couldt just follow the sled to the surface, say "I`m OK" and go right into the chamber. Same dive, much, much safer.
For everything except NLT it seems to work fine with breathing O2 at depth after the dive. For NLT it seems we have to take it to another level.
 
And he (Herbert) wouldn`t need to do cnf the last bit of the dive. He couldt just follow the sled to the surface, say "I`m OK" and go right into the chamber.
The high speed surfacing with the sled can cause such a sever bubble generation that I can esily imagine it could kill the diver instantly. So the chamber could only be used as an expensive coffin. And even if it did not kill him, the damage caused by it might be irreversible, or very difficult to treat in a portable deco-chamber. Those are typically built for low pressures, and already the 3 bar versions (for 20m depth equivalent) are at the high-end and rather big, heavy, and expensive. They still do not permit any treatment of the patient, like the big stationary systems do, so you just shove the person in it, and pray that he gets better.

Besides it, as written previously, you really cannot compare decompression at scuba and at freediving. Due to the very strong cerebral vasodilation, much bigger quantities of N2 (and perhaps CO2), and much bigger bubbles form deeper in the vessels, and then after the surfacing and after the consequent vasoconstriction, get entrapped in the brain (and elsewhere). It means that the 3 bar recompression may not be sufficient for the quick DCS supression.
 
OK. Let`s say the dive is done in the same way, with the stops before surfacing. Isn`t the methods pretty much the same? Recompressing either with chamber or diving and breathing O2. I don`t know much about freediving and DCS, but I have another thought that relates to diving and DCS. I`ve always thought that in order to get DCS you would have to decrease the pressure to less than 50%. That means that diving to less than 10m gives you no risk of DCS and if you dive at 50m for a long time you would not get DCS if you directly ascend to 20m and stop there. That means that in Herberts last dive he would reach the pressure where he could get DCS already at about 120m (13bar). So I`m thinking deeper stops??
And this one I don`t understand:
much bigger quantities of N2
How is that possible? The dives on air I described would not be treatable with breathing O2 for 20 min. If you can be treated in 20 minutes you don`t really have a big saturation do you?
As I said, my knowledge with DCS is from normal diving but the thing I do know is that there is one good thing about bubbles: You can make them smaller by increasing the pressure
 
OK. Let`s say the dive is done in the same way, with the stops before surfacing. Isn`t the methods pretty much the same?
Yes, of course they are. Nobody diputes that. The problem is the cost, the availability, the logistic, and also importantly the time. You can do the O2 deco prettty instantly after the SP, or even before it (in training or in emergency). And in training you can stop for the O2 deco already during the ascent. When using a portable deco chamber, the entire process of extracting the potentially uncoscious or convulsing diver, putting him into the chamber, and recompressing - it would take surely at least 5 minutes, perhaps much more. And each second may be very important in this case, so it makes a huge difference. Additionally you would have no way to perform CPR if needed. Still, of course, you are right that if there were no complications, the chamber would allow for better and more controlled decompression. And even in the case of an inconscious diver it may still offer better choice than the submersion. That's not the question. The principal is chosing such strategy that minimizes the need of a long and a deep deco. But I think you are rigtht that for such extreme dives, having a portable deco chamber on the boat would be wiser anyway.


Yes, of course, you can make bubbles smaller by compressing them, but that's why I wrote you cannot compare scuba deco with freediving deco, and you may need to compress a freediver more than a scuba diver saturated to the same level, because due to the cerebral vasodilation, at the freediver the vaste majority of bubbles will form in the brain, will form bigger, and deeper in the capilaries, and will be ten entrapped with the vasoconstriction after surfacing, so will resist more the compression.

Another factor not yet well studied or understood, is the contribution of CO2 at freediving DCS - it may play a more important role than N2. CO2 gets quickly dissolved, metabolized, and removed from the blood when ventilating, so the biggest risk of the CO2 is not after the dive, but during the ascent, when the bubbles may cause a lot of damage. For this reason the slow ascent, and deco-stops during the ascent at extrem dives like this, are important, and why the post-dive deco is less important / less helpful than at scuba.

So again, the choice of the strategy reducing the need for the deco is crutial. The post-dive bend-and-mend deco is not the solution, regardless how good it is. From this point of view, the FRC approach as used by Seb Murat and described in another thread may be the way to go. I was shocked seing Herbert telling already a few days after his accident that he was going to continue to 900 and 1000 feet, despite the accident. If he does not completely change the way he dives, I see no way how he could survive a deeper dive than he did.
 
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Thanks for all the info TRUX. Very interesting.
I contacted a colleague of mine who is a saturation diver. He said that from the moment a full dressed surface oriented diver reaches the surface it should not take more than 2-3 minutes before he is in the chamber. US Navy said (from 1970) that from 9m depth in the sea to the diver was pressurised it should not take more than 5 min. And this is a diver with a lot of equipment.
If the freediver comes up close to the boat, he could be repressurised to 20 or 50m in less than two minutes. I`m not talking about a portable chamber. With a bigger one he could undressed inside the chamber, he could have medical personell with him and he could get treatment as in a hospital. With the right personell and equipment this could be done almost as quickly as in the water and much more safe. What if he goes uncounsious while doing deco in the water? It`s not easy to communicate in the water either.
You would need some extra resources yes, but maybe this could be a good sollution?
 
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Sebastien Murat does exhale and fluid equalisation in order to avoid DCS. And is successful at that. I think Herbert is facing the limits of full lung diving. So for me the logical next leap for NL is the exhale + liquid method. Too bad Seb did not have enough luck to proof his concepts before his event ended.
 
There is another possible solution. Adjust the point of success so that it's at a 30m deco stop.

Then go through extended true in water deco. Avoids forcing the subject to surface and accepting bend/mend injuries and assuming recovery will be good enough.....
 
Reactions: NoFair

I was thinking the same for some time and was even posting last night when I actually changed my mind a bit.

It just becomes a really odd 'sport' - what if someone is diving a lot deeper and needs deeper deco etc, where do we stop.

Having these 'limits' is what is pushing Freediving forward in some ways but I have to admit that in the case of NLT, I'm still on balance probably agreeing with you since we have departed anyway from the norm and there is help with equalising etc so I don't think it's far fetched to allow help with DCS prevention.

I'd really prefer to make this concession than see even one person sustain injuries from DCS
 
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