History Constant Weight Record

[Simos]

My thoughts:

the biggest breakthrough we could have for new WRs, would be an equalisation one. I think the current WR can be broken but even if we add another 5-10m, equalisation will limit progress a lot (less and less people will even have a realistic chance at having a go at a WR because of it).

In fact I think that the only way Eric's prediction was/is meaningful (i.e. not a guess) would be if it's largely relying on EQ being the limit. The reason behind this is that everything else seems to be improvable with new technology and better training regimes (i.e. less drag, more propulsion etc) or not a limiting factor.

In terms of technology, I am sure the technology is already out there to improve all these factors. It's just a question of economic viability, since freediving is a niche sport without lots of money involved. But believe me, if there was a lot of money poured into freediving all those factors would have been a lot more advanced by now.

There are ways we can have an EQ breakthrough I believe. I don't want to speculate because I don't have the experience to comment on this but I have a few thoughts and I believe there is definitely the potential for a breakthrough in EQ.

 

[Lobo Marino]

My thoughts:

the biggest breakthrough we could have for new WRs, would be an equalisation one. I think the current WR can be broken but even if we add another 5-10m, equalisation will limit progress a lot (less and less people will even have a realistic chance at having a go at a WR because of it).

In fact I think that the only way Eric's prediction was/is meaningful (i.e. not a guess) would be if it's largely relying on EQ being the limit. The reason behind this is that everything else seems to be improvable with new technology and better training regimes (i.e. less drag, more propulsion etc) or not a limiting factor.

Before Patrick Musimu "middle ear flooding equalisation" and before Herbert Nitsch equalisation device was allowed ,the deepest dive with "classic" equalisation to this date was to -180m (in no limit) that leaves room for improvement in constant weight.

 

[Simos]

True - I am aware of Loic's dives. But at the same time getting that incredible flexibility does seem something that can easily taught or achieved 'overnight' (needs years of specific practice + probably good genes). Martin seems to be capable of doing it but still, it's no straightforward affair. I find it interesting that Will, with impressive flexibility, still hit some EQ wall around 115-120m.

It's not that we can't go deeper than the current WR with the available methods - with mouthfil too the predicted max is a lot deeper than the current WR. It's just that in practice, it's becoming a lot more difficult with no margin for error and/or requiring such physical preparation that very few people will be realistically be able to have a go at these WRs unless perhaps a new method is devised or some of the existing methods are improved (or even shared in some cases).

Maybe someone can come up with a way to descend feet first in CW, at least for the freefall part ;-)

 

[apneaboy]

Congratulations to everyone on that list. The depths you forecast not many people could have believed at the time.

One question.

Many of the athletes on the list had limited training opportunities I would imagine, they were not 'professional' in the sense they had to use their time earning a living, chasing sponsors.

If you could take the top ten divers and put them into a setting for a period of unlimited perfect training opportunities going around the world to keep good water/weather conditions do you feel there is still scope for a big increase?

Equalising no problem

 

[Simos]

If you could take the top ten divers and put them into a setting for a period of perfect training opportunities do you feel there is still scope for a big increase?

It would seem so Steve in my opinion. Even today, most of the top guys don't have perfect training opportunities and access for depth training all year round.

In fact, given how 'little' deep training some do, it's amazing they can hit those depths at comps with just a couple of weeks deep training.

It would seem that even the ones that have freediving as their profession like Martin have to take extended periods of time away from competing doing teaching and generally making a living. Most probably if they could focus on competing exclusively, records would have been deeper.

(just noticed you added 'equalising no problem', not sure what you mean). Anyway maybe Eric should talk on whether he thinks EQ will be a limiting factor or not...

 

[Simos]

Maybe we can look at it as a 'black box' - have a look at this:
A History of World Records - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

Looks like the world records in the longest established disciplines (e.g. swimming, track/running) are tailing off. Still being broken but less often and by less margin. You'd think that there might be a time lag with freediving since it's younger (and still haven't had fully professional athletes with perfect training opportunities) but there is no reason not to expect a similar pattern to develop in freediving too...

 

[Kars]

Musimu told me personally that his wet equalisation also worked for head down CWT...

 

[sgnips]

Musimu told me personally that his wet equalisation also worked for head down CWT...

He told me the same (and i see no reason why it could not)

 

[efattah]

None of the top divers are currently limited by equalization, though some are approaching their equalizing limit.

I do not believe that the next big breakthrough will be equalizing because I don't see that as the main limiting factor. I already commented in other threads that I did recently develop another equalizing technique, but since personally mouthfill works more than good enough, the only benefit to a different method is A) reducing or eliminating the huge energy involved in performing the mouthfill, and/or B) improving the dive reflex.

As I have said many times, anyone who can hit 40m on a mouthfill from the surface is good for 200m+ with packing. As Will recently hit 40m on a mouthfill from the surface he joins the group of people who could hit 200m+ with standard air equalizing, once again showing that equalizing will not be a factor.

 

[Mullins]

Not sure who we're calling the 'top divers' here, but EQ is my big problem. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say I'd be comfortably into the 120s if that was taken out of the equation. Will has also been hampered by it quite a bit, though he is more consistent than me.

And aren't Ryuzo and Guillaume pulled up short by their ears on a fairly regular basis?

While EQ might not be an ultimate limiter for many of the top CWT divers (they can do big dives when they get it right), it does get in the way of consistency and I think this is hampering progression.

 

[watts]

What would be the deepest heads down dives in NLT or VWT?

 

[nenrandir]

With the risk of exposing my stupidity, but IF eq is the major problem (rather than O2) AND if a head-up position makes eq easier -- then why not turn at say 60 m and freefall feet down from there? The O2 loss couldn't be that huge, since eventually you'll have to turn anyway. Or what am I missing here?

 

[Kars]

Well, speed is greatly reduced going feet first, so longer dive time, more narcosis.
But indeed equalisation is much easier.

 

[dimitris33]

Because if u have your monofin point down and head up I dont think that u will ever reach the bottom plate. There is no streamline to free fall verticaly...

 

[apneaboy]

Have a wetsuit with a velcro a*** and put the other half of the velcro on your ankles and back of your feet, sink knees first if you want

 

[efattah]

With the risk of exposing my stupidity, but IF eq is the major problem (rather than O2) AND if a head-up position makes eq easier -- then why not turn at say 60 m and freefall feet down from there? The O2 loss couldn't be that huge, since eventually you'll have to turn anyway. Or what am I missing here?

For FRC no fins you can do it right from the start:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QTHoXtQPlY]Feet First FRC Descent - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Simos]

What would be the deepest heads down dives in NLT or VWT?

From memory I think the deepest is 171m in NLT... (Loic, heads down using reverse packing for EQ)

VWT I don't know for sure - Walter's 121m was heads down if I remember correctly (mouthfill with reverse packing/topping up and a static at the bottom :ban).

There are another 8-9 deeper VWT dives most of which are probably heads up but I don't know what Martin's VWT was like (he's the one from those I'd guess could have been head down).

 

[Simos]

While EQ might not be an ultimate limiter for many of the top CWT divers (they can do big dives when they get it right), it does get in the way of consistency and I think this is hampering progression.

I think you hit the nail on the head Dave - I would think too that consistency is a key factor. If you could magically take EQ out of the equation, I think a lot more divers would be closer to those WR depths and if we had a highly competitive field like that, CWT WRs would be broken more often.

Of course another key factor which makes things more difficult is organising such CWT WR attempt or even practising for it (safety, conditions etc - maybe a breakthrough in safety would also help?).

Take Martin's latest attempt (all this just a guess) - probably took him a while to find the time to do some proper deep training and organise the WR attempt. Then an unfortunate problem with EQ and he had to call it off and postpone for (I would imagine) some time.

Anyway even if you are not convinced about EQ being a limiting factor, whatever it is that is slowing down progress, it must be depth-related in my opinion (and probably where a breakthrough would add more) as opposed to say a generic factor like breath hold ability.

Let's compare with DYN - the WR jumped almost 50m or so in the last 4 years or so? Doesn't seem to be slowing down that much even without major breakthroughs with monofins etc so don't think such a (welcome) breakthrough (e.g. DolFin) would be necessary to achieve deeper CWT WRs but it would certainly help divers who are not so limited by EQ but by factors like breath hold.

Interesting thread Eric - out of curiosity, what was the reason (if any particular one) you had predicted that it would slow down at 125m all those years ago?

 

[Kars]

Actually I would like to see a nice contingent of freedivers catch up to form a wider top of say 12 people within WR range. This would make a competition such as Vertical blue very interesting. Along with robot camera's and other ways to communicate the state of the diver to the audience. Matching the camera shots to the divers post dive commentary (recorded right after the dive on a boat 15m with the next athlete preparing in background).

And, what about the women???

 

[efattah]

Not sure who we're calling the 'top divers' here, but EQ is my big problem.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but to my knowledge, Herbert, Martin, Carlos, Guillaume, Walter, Alexey and Will are not limited by EQ. Will recently made big breakthroughs in the mouthfill (see other thread) which I think completely eliminated equalizing as a limit for him. Dave and Ryuzo are hit-and-miss so far to my knowledge, and I'm sure many of the divers hovering around 100m are also hit-and-miss, but it is not clear how many of them have the air to do 120m+ anyway.

After I dove 88m in 2001 I considered the problems I was having (mostly narcosis & leg fatigue), and I estimated performance gains based on improved training, improved monofins, improved mouthfill technique, as well as hypoxic limit, and strangely most of these factors converged all around 125m. Thus I felt it was safe that most normal people would find a limit around 125m (perhaps for different reasons). For example, while Dave and Ryuzo may have an equalizing limit somewhere around 120m, in my case equalizing is not an issue but my blackout limit is somewhere very close to that same depth (unless I can find more time to train...), and I think my narcosis limit is also around the same area, so different people, different limiting factors, similar limiting depth... Will T. strangely seems to have a samba limit around 120m in CWT, which doesn't make sense at all to me considering 101m+ CNF, but facts are facts...

Martin attempted to break Herbert's 124m by just one meter, the only time I have ever seen Martin attempt to improve the record by just one meter. His previous records (93m, 108m, 122m) improved the record by 3m, 3m, and 2m respectively. Further Martin's use of variable weight in training for the 125m I think furthers the image of difficulty here, since I have not seen him use that before.

However, I think the approach to use is to stop thinking about 125m. The approach I have always used is to aim for a depth much greater than the record, and consider how you might achieve that, and then take action to make it happen. This leaves a margin of error so that even if you fall well short, you still have a chance. In this case someone who wants to make a constant weigh record should be thinking of how will they dive 135-150m, and this then gives a margin of error to make 125-126m dive.

In 2001, for example, the record was 81m, and in Florida that year I was aiming for 82m and missed (made 72m). I came back to Vancouver, stopped thinking about 82m, and aimed for 100m, made some changes, and fell short of 100m with 88m, but this was still way over the record and allowed a good margin of comfort to do 82m. I think the same thinking would still benefits divers today.

My favorite training quotation is from D.N.Graham: 'If you want to be the athlete of tomorrow, you must train like tomorrow's athletes today.'