How much harder is it to freedive in cold water?

[Stavros]

As I read it, Stavros and Jome are not saying the instructor should be flexible - the depth should still be achieved but would take longer in cold water, not really fair as I see it!

Sam my view on this is that as the freediving instructor qualification is basically a professional license anyone interested in having it should be able to easily perform the minimum performance requirements no matter what the conditions... this is only logical as he/she is given a license to teach no matter what the conditions. To explain this: lets say I do an instructor course in Egypt and just barely manage to crack 32m. Then I move to Norway and set up shop. I have no experience in cold water diving and I can barely make it to the 20s in Norway. Should I be able to teach a 3* or 4* if I as an instructor cannot make the required performance minima?

My view is that if you want to be an instructor the performance requirements should be a joke ... you should be able to just take a breath and do a 32m dive any day of the week any time of year.

Which raises another question...... why does an instructor need to be super deep/long/far??? If he/she can reliably dive over and over to the depth they are teaching to, then why require any more than that? just a thought....

In my mind the instructor has to be quite deep/long/far as it is quite clear in the AIDA education (you know this a lot better than me cause it is you who put it there ) that the instructor is also meant to be a role model - lead by example.

And if you can easily and repetitively hit the depths or do the static or distance required for the courses you are teaching (ie 32m, 3:30, 70m) then you can probably do quite a bit more on a one-off max dive…(so you are super deep/long/far or close enough anywayrofl)
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if you put in unnecessary demands at instructor level you are introducing lots of possibilities for claims of unfair discrimination - to those less able perhaps for medical reasons, to those diving in tougher conditioins, to women (who still do generally achieve lower PBs than men in freediving but are required to meet the same standards on all AIDA courses - should we have different standards for men and women on AIDA courses???).....
just some thoughts....
S

Since freediving is a physically demanding outdoors activity there is no grounds for unfair discrimination... if you want to be able to teach it professionally you must be able to meet these physical demands.

In the end of the day it is not mandatory that everyone must be able to become a freediving instructor... a selection process should (and is getting there) be in place (and a strict one at that) same as for many other professions where physical and mental abilities are required in order to do the job properly.

Just think about it...should a man or woman who is not that fit and not that intelligent and barely managed to meet some "adjusted" performance mimima be trusted to take 4 students out in the open water and teach them how to dive to 24m while holding their breath just so nobody can claim that AIDA is discriminating?!?!?
The thought alone scares me.

Cheers Stavros

PS. This is not just me making up stories - I have seen some very questionable individuals going for instructor certification during the last year or so and the thought of them [/FONT][FONT=&quot]taking [/FONT][FONT=&quot]students out to open water was quite scary.[/FONT]

 

[samdive]

Hi Stavros

I basically agree with most of the above (as you know, as I put the initial standards in place)

My only query really is on the instructor performance requirements - why they need to be more than a small margin higher than the course (you are saying you are an instructor, not a world class freediver - PADI does not demand that all OW instructors also be qualified in trimix...)

The "health-check" side is true - of course the instructor needs to be fit and strong, but this is taken care of by the medical that is required, stamina tests and general in-water skills. You don't need to be super fit to make a one-off dive to 40m. I know plenty of people that could dive to 40m if they had their proper warm up, time to do yoga, time to do breathing, ate the right food and the weather was in the right place - but would NOT be able to make the 15 or so dives to 20m that you might do whilst supervising an AIDA ** course.

 

[samdive]

Eric - thanks for your reply.

We'd be talking repetitive dives as a course would never consist of a one-max dive. The aim of the thread is to find out what, if any, allowances should be made on depth requirements for courses taught in "adverse conditions" - not one-off pb attempts.


In your terms - we'd most likely be looking at the difference between diving in a 5ml suit (with socks and gloves) versus a 3ml (without)

 

[naiad]

One problem which I have, and which I am sure some other students of scuba/freediving must have, is that when I get into cold water, I get a very strong urge to breathe in. This is much worse if I put my face in the water, and while I can resist it, it is excruciating and really puts me off. It hasn't got any easier.

I am not sure of the safety aspects of this - I don't feel confident about diving or doing any other sport in cold water. Some people don't like things like mask removal, but they haven't described the problem that I have.

 

[efattah]

If we are talking about a 32m dive, then the real difference is what equipment the person is using. If the person is using a rented 7mm scuba wetsuit, with a huge weight belt, and short plastic bifins, and a big volume mask, then a 32m dive is very challenging. On the other hand, with a high quality monofin, a smoothskin 5mm, a hydrodynamic weight belt + neck weight, and a low volume mask, the depth should be quite easy in any conditions.

What bothers me more is the aquatic nature of the instructor. I know a person who is a qualified instructor (won't mention under which organization), and this person is completely unable to 'sink' during deeper dives. They insist on kicking violently during the whole descent, out of fear and panic. In my opinion such a person has not reached the mental level of aquatic comfort to be an instructor -- imagine such a person 'teaching' other people to 'sink', when the instructor is unable to demonstrate the skill !!

 

[sanso]

Scary! Why would anyone with that kind of attitude towards water or depth even want to dive, least of all be a diving instructor?

This is a prime example that there's more to being an instructor than an organization can ever put on paper. This person probably could do everything expected for the instructor test, but is he qualified? A very valid question IMO.

I think AIDA shouldn't start writing down every single exception or adverse condition. Try to count how many exceptions You can come up with in, say, five minutes. Multiply by the number of people with nothing better to do out there in the world....

Then imagine that someone would surely have the idea of sueing AIDA for the title of Instructor because some adverse condition has been overlooked in the educational system. The parallel to the US legal system comes to mind where coffe cups have to state that their contents may be hot! :head

Let's just keep assuming that someone who wants to be an instructor knows that the sea knows no such thing as fairness.

enter masks with an imprint: "Objects in sea are further away than they appear" :head

 

[fcallagy]

The parallel to the US legal system comes to mind where coffe cups have to state that their contents may be hot! :head

I recently supplied a gas fire to a hotel, glass fronted where they wanted maximum heat and effiaceny. The fire is now not being used at present as they did think the glass would get so hot. I admit it, I did not think to point this out to them.
Caution you may get wet when diving in the sea.

 

[daveking]

Sam,

As you know my diving pretty well I won't say too much but I tend to dive better after a good cup of tea, some juice and cooked breakfast from Barbara in Chepstow.

Comfortable dive tend to be in warmer water as there is usually more to see and chill out to.

Will let you know more after Sharm!

 

[Stavros]

What bothers me more is the aquatic nature of the instructor.

In my opinion such a person has not reached the mental level of aquatic comfort to be an instructor

THANK YOU ERIC !!!

Just the thing that was missing from this discussion and is really the essence of it all...

It is not about meters and seconds and liters...its about the person being at home in the water... how do you put that in an education system?

Cheers Stavros

 

[Fondueset]

I agree with everything Eric said - though I wish he could be more precise.
Another factor influencing dives with thicker suits is compressibility. The difference is much more pronounced with a 5 or 6 mil than with a 3mil and, during the winter, I have not only to punch through the buoyancy barrier on the way down, I have to slug my way off the bottom because the suit has compressed so much. But for wanting to stay in awhile I'd probably try for a 3 mil year round.
I also agree about the cold - all of my best dives have been with a mild chill. I can feel myself kick into the zone when I hit a really cold thermalcline.

Naiad - you might try gradual face acclimatization. I find when the water gets much below 6-8c I'll get nauseous if I abruptly stick my face in and go. What I do instead is put it in until it gets really uncomfortable, then out, then back in once more, then out. Third time I'm good to go. Only takes a couple of minutes and makes for a much more comfortable dive.

Personally I'd be comfortable with a 32m requirement regardless of temp. But I think it's also fair to knock it back if people are having to wear 5 mil suits.

 

[m2b]

I said it before, I'll say it again. Put them in the scenarios and test them. Can they dive in cold water to a certain depth? Can they dive in zero visibility? Can they dive as deep in current? etc, etc, etc. Test them and find out. If they pass they pass if they don't then they fail and it's a simple case of better luck next time. Or is it...

Another way I like to look at this issue is pretty simple, Henry Ford. He was a "stupid" guy but he knew how to hire the right people. He didn't have all the smarts in world but he knew how to hire the people that did. What if someone wants to instructor but has a physical impediment, like a missing leg, missing lung or something along those lines. As a result they can't even foreseeably think of diving down 32m. Should they be told to take a hike? What if they use to be able to dive down that far and much further but an accident of one kind or another happened, cancer, car accident, etc. They know their freediving they just can't do it anymore. Should they not be allowed to instruct as a result. Who is better qualified the one who can perform or the one who knows what he is talking about because he has been there?

Another thing to think about it, who would you rather have teaching you how to freedive, someone that can dive deep but can't explain worth a crap what he's doing or someone who can tell you correctly and easily what to do but can't do it himself?

Just some more thoughts to ponder.
Ryan

 

[DiverTodd]

Myself, it's never vis that's a problem - I'm used to diving in HORRIBLE vis - it's the COLD that does me in. If it's not the physical effects (shivering, etc), it's the mental games the cold plays with me. Feeling the water suddenly shift to cold as I'm heading down is a huge headtrip that only REMINDS me that I'm sinking even deeper into a hostile environment! Sometimes it's actually like the cold is a VISE, suddenly gripping my entire body.

Todd

 

[samdive]

can we cut this back to basics....

people often say to me "I've only dived in the Red Sea but I want to come and train with you guys at SaltFree. How much do you think that will knock off my PB?"

most of these people are somewhere in the 25-40m range, CW.

What would you answer? (saltfree is a fresh water lake, average temp somewhere around 12c surface, 8c depth, vis c 5m on a bad day)

 

[m2b]

If they had the right cold water gear, why not.

Again, I look at freediving very differently than most everyone on this board.

What makes the difference whether the guy can dive 10m or 1000m, CW or No-Limits? The individual can only learn something if he is in the "right" phase of learning. He may not be able to gain as much, or get the same results as someone else but you want me to believe he can't gain from training with you.

The case in question that you mentioned, he will gain cold water experience, guaranteed. He may not set a new PB but he will gain experience nonetheless. He may end up gaining the most experience/knowledge of the entire group yet at the same time perform the worst because he isn't used to the conditions. He may return to the Red Sea and go out and set a new PB, shattering his old PB as a result of his training with you guys.

Now to rethink your question Sam, should he be allowed to join you?...

All individuals are different, some may take home tons from joining you and others may take home nothing other than the memories of diving with you. It's impossible to control what someone is going to gain from training with you. If you do any research on learning you will come to understand that it may take several times being told something before it clicks, sometimes it may happen on the first try. It will click when the timing is appropriate for the person in question. Some people pick up Frenzel right off the bat while others take much longer. Did you fail as an instructor since one guy couldn't perform the Frenzel at the end of the training course? I don't think so. The person just isn't ready for it yet. You don't know what you are going to be handed when you go out to train someone that you haven't did any diving with previously, you just have to teach to the best of your ability so you can help the diver the most. That can be done with someone that only can dive 10m just as much as it can with someone that can dive 100m. The same material can help both divers even though some of it may be considered "advanced/expert". When you have a group of varied experience/ability levels around they all can teach each other through their own personal experiences. It makes you job as the head instructor easier. You may not teach Frenzel in a way that the student can take benefit of it but someone else in the group that is just learning from you at the same time may be able to explain it to the student that is struggling. I have a hard time seeing the point of different levels of courses once the diver can feel comfortable diving to around 10m. Beyond 10m everyone should be together, they all can learn from each other. You might be surprised what a beginner can bring to a group of advanced students.

This is a sport about knowledge that turns into ability through practice. Without the knowledge you don't stand a chance at improving unless you "stumble" into it by accident. Isn't the most important thing getting the knowledge into the divers hands so he can participate in the sport safely and so he doesn't have to STUMBLE into the knowledge?

For your original reason for posting the thread, I would say to qualify for a certain level of instructing it should be more on how well the potential instructor can get his point across, how well he knows the sport, and not so much on how well/deep he can dive. He may have physical reasons that won't let him get to 32m...should that stop him from teaching? The ability to teach is most important and unless you are dealing with finning technique you are dealing with "book learning/dry land training" and not anything that the instructor would even need to be in the water to teach, figuring the instructor isn't acting as a safety diver also. What makes the difference how deep the instructor can achieve?

Yeah, I really see things differently don't I.
Ryan

 

[Fondueset]

Well, I was told by a very experienced Brazilian spearo - who'd been diving for decades in competition - to expect a 15% increase in warmer water. He said he had observed this often in others as well as himself. I didn't have an opportunity to concretely test this but based on my relative feeling at various depths in that thoroughly unfamiliar environment I'd have to agree. I was extremely comfortable at 20 meters despite faint nausea, rolling seas, a completely different environment and being about 4 meters from the first shark I'd ever seen in the wild - which was also only the second thing I've been in the water with that was bigger than me. That's a first blush impression from a guy who dives almost exlusively in cold water.

Five meters might be a good call. Starting maybe at 15C?

Questions that come to mind are - do you base it on surface temp? Suit thickness etc..?

'Off topic' commentary: While I agree there are basic criteria of fitness etc. that an instructor should have (in part for safety reasons) I do think most trainings now are oriented more toward competition than to recreational freediving. It is helpful to push your limits in safe circumstances - so that you can feel them and get to know how you dive. But it is only part of having a real relationship with the u/w world. Someone skillfull, at ease and in love with the sea, who communicates clearly and responsibly but can only dive to 20 meters due to a sinus problem, is nonetheless more inspiring than a mere technician who can go 80 meters and competes with his/her students. There are, of course, a lot of angles to this argument. I've never been to 30 meters - but as soon as I have a competent spotter and a place to do it - I'm down Ability, in absolute terms, is really not as important as being able to teach good breathe-ups, safety, and other technical aspects as well as the not-so-technical essential capacity to feel at home under water and convey that. Without that theres really not much going on. Some teachers can inspire your own relationship with things - others just throw information at you.

 

[laminar]

Great points, all.

From my perspective it is less about what minimum depth you can achieve as an instructor or a student, but rather what depths you can achieve in comfort and confidence over and over again as if diving was second nature.

In my view, and what I always tell new divers looking to get comfortable being underwater (and those who want to compete) is to perfect their diving within 0-20m. Those first 20m make or break a deep dive and, in my books, an efficient and artful descent in the first stage of each dive is what leads to continual improvement throughout a diving career.

I would approach teaching freediving as an art, rather than a linear process, which is a trap most of us fall for at some point or another.

I do see that having standards helps people measure their progress, as we humans tend to do in all sports, and it sure can be exciting to reach those milestones, but ultimately I feel it leads to too many people who call themselves 40m divers, when actually they can only dive to 10-15m in full comfort, which in itself is fine, but very misleading.

So all these variables mentioned about visibility, suit configuration, temperature is all fine, but really, what depth are you comfortable diving to no matter the conditions or variables? To me, that's a much better indication of your development as a diver.

I would like to see freedivers spending more time in shallower water, learning expertise in full comfort, rather than flirting with anxiety as they try to become 30m, 40m, and 50m divers. Years of experience is far more interesting to me than depth, and variety of experience more important that absolute depth (lakes, rivers, oceans, surf, fins, no fins, photography, videography, inhale, FRC, exhale, competition, soul diving, body surfing, swimming, ocean knowledge, marine life knowledge and experience, lifesaving skills, nautical skills, survival, and above all, for instructors, people skills and risk management).

For example, I know of a few freedivers who competed at the international level, registering respectable dives, but when it comes to diving in cold water, winter, or high current conditions, they are painfully just "line divers", rarely venturing beyond 15m, and they really don't seem to enjoy themselves, which in my view is a shame. I'm sure they wouldn't call themselves 15m divers (they would no doubt bristle at the suggestion), but that's what they are.

Perhaps AIDA freediver courses should mandate or highly recommend a certain number of months or years before allowing students to take the next level. After all, there's so much more to learn then "going down and coming back up."

Sam, I think that the instructors should have a degree of comfort and knowledge much greater than the students (well, most students). Depth standards aside, I think it is far more important to be able to decide whether the conditions warrant a reduction in "target" depth for the day, than to try and meet a certain depth requirement. I would focus on a skills based approach to identifying requirements for passing the level (or becoming an instructor).

I.e.: Student can perform X skill. Or instructor can effectively teach X skill to a wide variety of people.


Pete

 

[Stavros]

What if someone wants to instructor but has a physical impediment, like a missing leg, missing lung or something along those lines. As a result they can't even foreseeably think of diving down 32m. Should they be told to take a hike? What if they use to be able to dive down that far and much further but an accident of one kind or another happened, cancer, car accident, etc. They know their freediving they just can't do it anymore. Should they not be allowed to instruct as a result. Who is better qualified the one who can perform or the one who knows what he is talking about because he has been there?

From my point of view such a person should definately not be allowed to become a freediving instructor. A person with the physical impediments you describe would not be able to provide the necessary safety for their students during a course - remember this is a physical sport with some risk involved.

Cheers Stavros

 

[Stavros]

What would you answer? (saltfree is a fresh water lake, average temp somewhere around 12c surface, 8c depth, vis c 5m on a bad day)

I would say put a 5-7mm on adjust your buoyancy
to say 10-15m and lets have fun and find out


Cheers Stavros

Ps If they were in good diving shape I'd suggest setting the plate at their pb depth

 

[m2b]

Since I've never taken a freediving course I can't speak from experience but I can ask this question:

Who says the instructor has to be the safety diver as well? Quite frankly a setup like that should not be allowed. The instructor is there to teach not to act as a safety diver. The "job" titles should be completely separated with no carry over permitted.

If I were in a course and I saw that setup occuring I would more than likely walk away and demand a refund. Anything can happen at anytime. Why risk the entire course because something crazy happens and the instuctor ends up hurting himself trying to rescue a student.

The instructor should ALWAYS be on the surface/out of the water.

Just my opinion,
Ryan

 

[Stavros]

Perhaps AIDA freediver courses should mandate or highly recommend a certain number of months or years before allowing students to take the next level. After all, there's so much more to learn then "going down and coming back up."

Pete

Excellent points Pete - the above point is something that has always been on my mind and is missing from the current education system.

Should a complete newbie who has only snorkeled a few times and is on holiday for three weeks be allowed to do a 1* 2* and 3* in a row? Lets say he can meet the requirements and learns the theory - should there be no time between the courses to let all that knowledge sink in and become part of the person's diving rather than mere academic knowledge?

I remember that it took me around 6-12 months before the information given to me during my 2* course was really integrated in my diving and took me to a new level of comfort (by the end of the course I dove to 18m...12months later I was in the 30s...before I did a 3* I was in the mid 50s and still had things to learn from the 3*... by the time I did my 4* I was in the mid 70s and still learned a lot during the course...)

The above was with approximately 100 spearfishing/freediving dives a year on average... So I am a firm believer that a course is only the starting point - the students should take the time to implement the knowledge they get from the course and turn it into in water skills.

Cheers Stavros.