How to improve at freediving (rec and comp)!

[Mullins]

It was a little over 15l - but remember my body mass is correspondingly high at 90kg. TLC was down a bit from last time as I haven't been packing much over the last few months. However I was very happy to hear my RV was quite low, sort of puts paid to that persistent idea of packing increasing RV...

Interesting to hear the different approaches to rec diving. I usually just treat rec dives like sub-max comp dives. If I was going to give up comp diving and just spearfish (which is tempting at times...) I would probably train the same way I do now, only back off the intensity a bit. I.e. treating the training as a mechanical task to be performed in order to gain the 'performance headroom' that allows me to hang out at depth and enjoy my rec dives. Certainly not very Zen and sounds like drudgery, I know; however there is a certain pleasure in performing a mechanical task well.

I am wary of using FRC in the 'lite' sense as a way of simply reducing energy expenditure over a dive. It seems to me that you really need to use that PBP if you want to keep yourself safe. However I'm only scraping the surface of it and this is probably just natural wariness towards 'diving on empty.....'

 

[laminar]

I think there's two things here. The first is that there's a learning curve in changing a diving style to suit FRC in the first place - so that the descent becomes a static apnea exercise. That takes attention to technique and mindset.

Using PBP to keep yourself safe still works if you descend properly. And luckily, you'll know if you descended properly right away in the beginning, because C02 contractions on FRC suck!

I definitely prefer the zen approach to rec diving over the sub-max diving style.

What was your TLC before you started packing or have you always packed? I would say that while it would seem that you've avoided increasing your RV with packing, many others have not been so lucky. I think it's still a risky thing.

 

[fflupo]

what is PBP?

 

[laminar]

Psychological break point - either when contractions start or when the act of holding one's breath becomes a real drag, so to speak.

 

[Mullins]

I just haven't heard or seen any evidence that packing increases RV - I know Tom Sietas says he gets lung squeeze and blames packing, but did he ever try going below 70 before he started packing? This is the first time I've had my RV (& therefore TLC) measured, so I have no before/after comparison.

I suspect I reach PBP a little earlier than many people, just like I get contractions very early on inhale dives. This has probably led me to wait for it to occur on each FRC dive before beginning to ascend. My descents are passive. But yes, I've only just started FRC diving and my dive style will need a lot of adjustment.

Anyway, cool thread. Although I have a different approach to rec diving I do like reading this stuff.

 

[naiad]

Part of the reason I don't like negatives and hard CO2 training is the psychological effect of doing something I don't want to. I posted a bit about that here...
http://forums.deeperblue.net/679296-post19.html

 

[fflupo]

thanx for sharing your experience very much appreciated

i m training since almost 3 years now, mainly cw.. on passive exhale or FRC and in the winter i go to the pool as well , for some dynamic training i don t do statics anymore.


basically i discovered the same experiences and the progress in my performance was/is amazing

I don t really understand how you guys deal/approach with the PBP ?
f.e. what you mean with?:

Using PBP to keep yourself safe still works if you descend properly

me usually when i get into the struggle mode ( PBP ?) i start to move just as a distraction and then relax/glide again like this i can keep on going much longer..

 

[naiad]

The CO2 tolerance thing is interesting. I used to think that the only effective way to improve CO2 tolerance is CO2 tables. Now I have realised that there are many ways to improve physical and psychological tolerance without CO2 tables. General fitness training increases CO2 levels, so it should improve the ability of the muscles to work in high CO2 conditions and become more efficient. Statics (wet and dry), dynamics and O2 tables all improve CO2 tolerance, unless they are all very short and effortless. Anything which increases CO2 levels to significantly above the resting level is CO2 training, so that includes most apnea training.

 

[Fondueset]

I don't really practice statics - I've done maybe 3 max breath hold tries in my entire life - once when I was 16 and twice in the last year. So I haven't much experience with the PBP. But last time I tried dry statics I did a personal best and afterward, during the same session, long holds became really interesting psychologically. There was a sort of hysterical urge to breath that I would characterize as a kind of inner scream. I don't generally experience panic but I would say it was pretty close. My temperament is such that my inclination was to explore it further but it began to feel pretty negative.

 

[Mullins]

I've always understood the first 'P' to stand for Physiological, i.e. the point at which the effects of the dive reflex strengthen dramatically; but then PBP is hardly a dictionary-defined term. Certainly nothing psychologically dramatic happens to me at PBP, I just begin to get contractions and feel less comfortable.

I hope you're still going to do that write-up on performance diving Laminar, I was looking forward to that.

 

[chrismar]

I hope you're still going to do that write-up on performance diving Laminar, I was looking forward to that.

You and me both, though I probably need it more than you

It's interesting to see how low your RV is in comparison to your TLC, especially with regards to packing. I just had my numbers done as well and came out with VC of 6.4L, VC(packed) of 7.4L and RV of 1L. I haven't been packing for a long time, nor diving for that matter, but I doubt my RV was ever much lower than that.

Does anyone have any data to suggest that packing actually increases RV, or is it just an assumption?

 

[naiad]

But last time I tried dry statics I did a personal best and afterward, during the same session, long holds became really interesting psychologically. There was a sort of hysterical urge to breath that I would characterize as a kind of inner scream. I don't generally experience panic but I would say it was pretty close. My temperament is such that my inclination was to explore it further but it began to feel pretty negative.

I think I understand what you mean. That is why I don't do very hard CO2 tables or no breathe-up statics. I am willing to put up with quite a lot, but that is just too much.

 

[hteas]

There was a thread a year or two ago that discussed CO2 tolerance, or the lack of it. A reasearch paper on emphasema discussed testing Tanya Streeter and Tom Sietas, along with sufferers and general public. Their results, I believe, were that we don't build up any long term CO2 tolerance, just short term. Anyone remember any of this?
If it's true, then definitely there is no need to burn through semi-daily CO2 tables! ; )
Howard

 

[naiad]

I remember something like that. I don't understand, because I think my CO2 tolerance does improve with training. If I have been training static/dynamic a lot, the contractions start much later or not at all. The effect lasts for days or weeks.

 

[Mullins]

I remember that study too, Howard. My personal tolerance to CO2 doesn't seem to have changed since I started freediving. I suspect that one's physiological response to CO2 levels doesn't change; instead, freedivers learn to better manage the symptoms and become more comfortable with them. They also reduce CO2 by developing efficient swimming technique or ventilating before their breathholds. Almost all the freedivers I've met hyperventilate.

 

[Mullins]

It's interesting to see how low your RV is in comparison to your TLC, especially with regards to packing.

Yeah, it puts my theoretical failure depth (RV) at 90m on inhale... so I should really stop complaining about how difficult it is to equalise. It also means I've only been past RV on fewer than a dozen occasions!

Does anyone have any data to suggest that packing actually increases RV, or is it just an assumption?

Not that I've seen. I've always thought (though this is also without formal substantiation...) that packing would reduce one's RV by increasing the elasticity of the diaphragm and other connective bits & pieces. The doctor taking the measurements also mentioned this might be the case, but this was just an observation and didn't represent a professional opinion or anything.

 

[laminar]

Happy New Year, everyone!

I've become an insomniac in the last week or so - serves me right for playing a Texas Hold 'em as a drinking game until five am with my ex-girlfriend and Tyler on Christmas Day. :friday Oh well, you learn from your mistakes.

Let me first offer a caveat to this post. If I had found the best way to train AND had the motivation AND the money to compete, I'm still not sure I could break a world record. Most likely, my lungs would cease their functioning at around 90m. :ko So if that lack of credibility is not a problem for you, then read on, dear reader.

What follows is intended more for the hopeful 95% of people who want to add to their personal bests or do well in a competition (well, that's a whole other post), rather than break world records, so here goes.

To get better at freediving, you need (in no particular order):

1. A dive buddy (or several) who is somewhat competitive, enjoys watching and helping you succeed, and may even be better at some things than you are. You can learn a lot from each other that way and that will inspire you in turn. Ideally, they know how to save you butt if you blackout despite your best intentions. This is actually really important, otherwise, you will find it difficult to push yourself when it counts, or you'll do something stupid.

2. Access to deep and calm water. If you don't have access to deep water (whatever deep means for you), you need to go find some and spend enough time diving so that you learn lasting skills (Dahab is a fine example of a haven for people who don't have access to deep water and dive buddies and a safety system). :inlove

3. An "infinity" approach to getting better. Eventually, your absolute personal bests will stop happening and if that's all you have been focused on, you will feel crappy. Other sports invent categories to make you feel better about losing physical prowess (age groups, Masters, etc...), perhaps this will happen in freediving, too. Having this perspective, in my opinion, also means that you won't be a slave to your results and take some of the pressure off when it comes time to measure yourself on a depth line or in a competition. That pressure can be the reason why you hit a plateau or get DQed in competition. Not to be underestimated! :naughty

4. The ability to tell yourself that you can do something as long as you train, prepare and practice and actually believe it. I still remember Eric Fattah saying one day after a 67m dive in early 2001 that given a lighter suit configuration that he would be able to reach well over 80m. I remember being skeptical and afraid of the implications (remember, back then 80m+ was the province of only two people, officially). It wasn't just a thought experiment, though. He trained like crazy, visualized the result he wanted and achieved it. But most people have no idea how much work it took (except you, Dave, I expect).

Okay, I know I sound like a sleep deprived motivational guru or whatever, but I think these are essential and they are within reach of everyone who loves freediving as a sport on the same level, say, as triathletes or lawnbowlers.

I am actually getting sleepy now, so I'll save the training details for the next post.

Peace,

Pete

 

[wes]

Thanks Pete, great stuff.

A few things I learned in training toward competition goals.

Figure out what you want to do and figure out a way to tell people (and yourself) what you are doing right now not what you will do or want to do. For example when people asked what I was doing in the pool I would tell them "I am training to set three US National freediving records." This keeps you in the here and now, not in the past or present. It's much better than saying "I hope to do this" or "I want to do this" or even "I am going to do this" as these statements take you out of the here and now and it takes mental energy to refocus back to the here and now.

Figure out why you want to do what you want to do. If you succeed this makes your goals congruent or aligned within yourself. I decided that the reason I wanted to set competition goals for myself was because I enjoyed training more if I was training toward a goal. This was very cool for me as when I trained for the competition goals, I was doing what I wanted to do right then, and not "suffering" in training or training "hard" or making "sacrifices" so that I would achieve my goals. It was fun of course, to set two records too, though now that I have set two records I have stopped training as I haven't figured out what I now want to do, and as a rule, I only will train "if I want to".

When training dynamic in the pool people would often ask if it was hard or they would comment that it must be hard. People I think often want to know that something is very hard or difficult if they secretly want to do and are afraid they will not be able to as knowing its very hard keeps them "safe" as then they shouldn't try to do is as they probably never could do it. Of course this perspective is exactly the opposite of what you want to achieve your goals. To counteract these questions in a positive and truthful way I would always say that "this (dynamics in the pool) is much easier then swimming because you don't have to breathe". Sometimes they would laugh or sometimes give a stare of disbelief though I don't think anyone was offended by this answer. Cheers - Wes Lapp

 

[marc25]

Hi Laminar,

great thread and great ideas!
They will help a lot for the next year of training!

will you post some ideas/trainingtables about "training for competitions"?

cheers,
marc

 

[laminar]

Okay, some initial outlines.

Training should be fun, interesting, intense enough to produce improvements in performance, sustainable over a "season," whatever that means to you and long-term.

If I were to train for a competition now, based on my own experience and from what I've see of others, this is a rough sketch of how I'd approach it:

Yoga: for feeling good, the numerous psycho and physical benefits and for recovery from high intensity training. Of course, it doesn't have to be "yoga" but any kind of physical activity that rejuventates, rather than drains you. And something that you enjoy. Hell, it could be dancing!

Technique: Freediving is really all about movement through water. Well, that's what I love about it. Swimming has shown that refinements in technique account for huge gains in performance. If you don't believe me, I can easily prove it to you (of course, it's easier in person). I love working on technique and think it's so important that it should account for 30-50% of training. And of course, by imprinting good technique, you will improve in other ways. What is good freediving technique? Figuring out the optimal efficiency for a given movement (arms, legs, body undulation, etc...). There's also lots of technique in static apnea, too, but not as obvious. Good technique doesn't necessarily mean classic or well established technique. Many people laughed at Eric Fattah for using a monofin, saying it wouldn't work and was a waste of time. Decide for yourself what works best for you and have an open mind.
There's also all the technique involved in entry, first 20m, equalizing, sinking, turning (bottom plate/pool edge), surfacing, recovery, etc, etc... which can be drilled in easy conditions so that when you are doing the money dive, if happens automatically. I have rarely seen people do this, either.

Optimizing gear: I think it's no accident that many of the new national and world records have come through the new fin designs (especially in dynamic). Having gear that works for you makes a huge difference and also introduces a whole set of variables that can make things complicated. So the more expensive and specialized equipment becomes, the more complicated it gets to use it correctly. Spend some time, ask around for the right config for you for an event, and then stick with it until a competition. Choose something and then test enough so you can decide what suits you and what doesn't.

Food: Don't worry too much about it. It is easier not to get so obsessed about every detail. I think the main thing is to find out what food you can eat before a diving day that helps you feel energized and keeps you from getting seasick, if you are prone (eat ginger). And then stick to that. Eat healthy food, but I would say don't go overboard. Otherwise, no part of your life is separate from 'training" and that can take a toll. But of course, others will swear by it.

Intensity: You've got to stress your body to get better. There are myriad ways to do it. Most training I see in less experienced and accomplished freedivers just isn't intense enough for what they want to achieve. But by the same token, it doesn't take much to see results if you try it. The intensity component is where the "training" really happens (that's the next post).

Recovery: And you also need time to recover, good food, and good sleeping habits. I find it's very easy to overtrain while freediving, especially if you work 9 to 5.

Mental Preparation: How you conduct yourself in practice will determine to a great extent how you perform. Competition is completely different and is a rush. But if you simulate a competition environment frequently, stage mock competitions, head to head trials, you'll be that much more prepared to face the unexpected. Like the judge putting the official gauge on your arm with less than a minute left in your countdown. :duh Or a sudden delay in the competition because of a technical issue. Or someone having a bad and scary blackout beside you. If you've always been in the safe confines of your own pool, with no special training to address the variables, you'll be distracted.

In my mind, to echo Wes' excellent comments, the process has to be engrossing, fun, challenging, full of milestones, and ultimately help you discover more about yourself and the medium of your sport: the water.

More later...

Dave, Wes, others....?

Pete