How to improve maximal equalization depth using frenzel?

[MarcinB]

When you turn yourself head up the air tends to go up the airways which makes equalization much easier when you are close to your limit. However, it works only for another few meters.

 

[Azrael3000]

Marcin I have the same problem as you. But I think I've solved it now (28m yesterday without problems). What helped me was to read the book by Frederico Mana on equalization. He explains the physiology very well and that helped me understand the things that should be going on in your airspaces. Equipped with this knowledge I started doing some exhale dives in my local 3.5 m pool. This was really useful for getting the technique right, i.e. proper positioning of tonuge, closing of glotis, etc. As usual with exhale dives be very careful, no abrupt movements and have a safety around.

Then I went on to do some diving in our lakes and made sure to put to practice what I did in the pool. One very important thing is relaxation. You need to be comfortable at the depth you are targeting, but it needs to be in the range where you normally start having problems. Then I did repetitive dives to that depth freefalling from 10 and just focusing on equalization and nothing else. Even if once my glotis would leak a bit, forgetting about that equalization and focusing on the next, which would usually work. Obviously sometimes it doesn't work, then turn around and try again on the next dive, force is the wrong answer.

I can't guarantee that it will work for you, as with all freediving training this is one individual experience. So good luck

 

[baiyoke]

I dive in Omer Zero 3 too. I equalize the mask every time I equalize ears (I can't do it separately).

Agree with others that hitting RV at 30 is quite normal. Two things:

a) Not being able to seperately equalize mask and ear is a huge problem, especially when you get deeper. However, it it is easily solved Pinch your nose at 20m, hold it, and forget about the mask... It's that easy. And you can go to 50+ whitout further equalisation of mask.

If you don't pinch your nose, and reach the point of eq. difficulty, the mask will most defenitely close both ears and the soft palate, and that is the end on that descend.

b) Waiting with doing mouthfill makes some sense... but I don't recommend it. Actually you are probably allready doing the mouthfill, and if not, you should start... By that I menan that the last bit of air in every dive you make, kind of is a tiny mouthfill... The reason I recommend doing it anyway is that doing "multiple mouthfills" on the 0-30 m descend is a way of keeping a constant preessure on ears, and thereby not making them irritated.

Also, if relaxation is an issue going towards a PB, hitting the same problem at the same depth everytime can get to you. If you can just slide to 35 with your nose pinched an a small mouthfill, you might have expanded your comfortzone beyond 30m.

When I started, I got around 30 pretty quickly, and then progression stopped also. A week later I even had problems around 16m because I forgot to equalize the mask. I think you are getting the same problem at 30m. So start pinch your nose, and make a little bit bigger "mouthfill" and see what happens...

 

[MarcinB]

Thanks Baiyoke! I'll try it for sure!

 

[esom]

Hi Marcin,
Mouthfill will not get you deeper, as you have to learn it first (at least not in a good way, and this is what your aiming for, is it not?).

Flexibility training will have an impact maybe, problem with this is that it can confirm a "wrong" track:
there is structure seperated from you whichs´ properties should be manipulated so that they (not you!!!) work in a different way.

I think staying with frenzel is a great way to understand what the problem is with the above mentioned seperation.


If there is a tension spiral involed in the way you dive down, and the way you finally fail to equalise, this failure might feel like something that is coming "over" you: from one moment to the other there is just no air left however hard you squeeze.

if you are diving good, meaning you keep your trunk relaxed, the amount of air you bring up in between frenzel pushs slowly fades out over 4-10 equalisations. This is not easy!
to beginners good diving almost only happens when there is no particular goal involved. Also going down too quickly puts you in timing stress with bringing up air and equalise. You need to go slow to find a whole new way to equalise along the changes that happen as you go down.
Very likely, to my experience, you have to find a whole new way.

The above write should have a particular taste for pure frenzlers, without any btw ability

 

[MarcinB]

Thanks a lot Esom. It feels more like a sudden lack of air to equalize. When equalization becomes difficult it takes only 2-3 pushes before I'm no longer able to equalize. I think "the tension spiral" is a likely cause of my problems. I dive in lakes and when it gets dark I know that I'm getting close to my limits and I tend to wait for the first symptoms of problems with equalization.

Last year I had a chance to train few days in a row in a deep lake and at the beginning the problems occurred at 18m. In the following days there was a progressive improvement and on the last day I was able to equalize down to 28-30m. I didn't change anything in my technique, I think I just started to feel more confident which helped me to relax better. However, this year equalization again becomes difficult around 20m.

 

[esom]

It feels more like a sudden lack of air to equalize.

yes, that´s what tryed to describe. just one more thing, because you mentioned "tension spiral as a cause", don´t be shy to disrespect my term "tension spiral", and find other pictures and feels! that contribute better to your understanding of your sinking in it´s various qualities.

 

[PJB]

yes, that´s what tryed to describe. just one more thing, because you mentioned "tension spiral as a cause", don´t be shy to disrespect my term "tension spiral", and find other pictures and feels! that contribute better to your understanding of your sinking in it´s various qualities.

Hey guys this is an excellent thread - right at the heart of the crux that gets us past 25-30m. Don't worry, this barrier's 'normal' for all (human) divers. To beat it some try training volume,, some try mask volume, some try bandha, some try packing...some try everything including talking forever. Please, take a short cut: contact ANDREA ZUCCARI and ask him to work with you, even remotely if necessarily. He's made it his life's work to understand more about this ONE thing than anyone in history. One hour with him will took me from fighting demons to 35m to gliding past 40 with a relaxed diaphragm and a mouth full of air. Dial up the guru. You won't be sorry. Promise.

 

[baiyoke]

I don't understand the clear distinction trainingwise between Frenzel and mouthfill that is talk about in this thread as in "one should master the Frenzel 100% before progressing to the mouthfill".: I believe it is perhaps a misconception. There's no clear distinction between those two. Frenzel is a small mouthfill.

IMO in this constext "Frentzel" and "Mouthfill" is sort of the same technique, as opposed to vasalva: Frentzel is the underlying pushing technique, based on closed epiglotis. Mouthfill is kind of a well timed, supersized Frenzel.

Especially it doesn't make sense to me not to progress slowly with a bigger and bigger mouthfill, when the student has hit a plateu around RV around 30m.

Especially since continueing the Frenzel below RV means you have to reverse pack and that means possible lung/throat squeeze.

But perhaps I don't see the reason behind: Could someone clarify why it would be trainingwise beneficial to make a Frenzel/mouthfill distinction when having hit RV, and recommend doing the Frenzel more ... ???


I do however agree that there's a ton of stuff that can be trained and perfected in the 0-30m range, especially the mental part. It's the "wait with mouthfill" part I don't get?

 

[MarcinB]

For me the major reason for not trying the mouth fill yet is that it could take me much deeper even if I'm not ready for it (of course provided that I would be able to do it correctly). Using frenzel only, If I lack flexibility or am not able to relax properly I have to turn back earlier because there is no more air for equalization. Using mouth fill I could likely dive beyond that depth which in my opinion would put me at risk of lung squeeze.

 

[esom]

baiyoke, a mouthfill, especially one that takes you to depth that you wouldn´t reach by well done frenzeling cycles is produced by the breathing muscles. through this fill up, the parts of the mouth that can not inflate their selfes are filled:
cheeks, soft parts of the throat - in extreme cases you can compress the air in the mouth and sinusses while filling quite a bit. all this is obviously impossible, if you apply the best way to keep your frenzel cycles going, which is reveverse packing.

deep diving (beyond 20m) generally puts you in a place where you can squeeze. the fact that it is possible to dive very deep with frenzeling cycles without squeezing, and the fact that there still is talk of enhanced risk of squeezing, instead of talk about skillful frenzeling, is just one more case that shows the sense of my erlier argument. - an argument for the potential of working on frenzel.

this way our diving and our thinking is improved and educated.

 

[esom]

i will explain further later on...

 

[esom]

ok, so i don´t see a particular reason to not switch to mouthfill technique when interested in deeper diving than 30 m and the feel of being stuck.
But
People planning to switch to mouthfill, often have a particular reason to switch. So i think it´s good to come from this end, and ask:

how come someone has the idea to switch the equalisation technique?
and
how does the switch and the thinking behind it (about freediving, the body and oneself) help to improve the freediving?

Or differently: Everytime someone switches to mouthfill being stuck at 30m, a decision is taken against improving the freediving, and the thinking that is part of it.
If the work on mastering the mouthfill takes up the thread that was cut there, it´s good.

I know many cases where there is a knot in the still loose end, and some more who´s end is loose and fringed, and some other spooled their freediving thread up and put it in the drawer...

 

[MarcinB]

Today I improved my PB in FRC diving by 1 meter I realized that I tend to tense when equalization becomes difficult. So I dived to the depth that was close to my limit and tried to relax my abdominal muscles before bringing the air up from my lungs, and voila equalization became possible again.

 

[PJB]

It is generally agreed now that the 25/30m 'barrier' exists largely because that happens to be where most divers hit FRC. Getting past that point is fundamentally reliant on diaphragmatic control, soft palate awareness and relaxation. Understanding Frenzel is the first step. Master that, build comfort and physiological adaptation and then mouth fill would be the next step. Why frenzel is the priority is because even mouth fill ultimately ends in frenzel as the air runs out - so think of it as the 'foundation'. But the bottom line is that without soft palate control and the ability to relax the technique itself is limited. Cheers

ok, so i don´t see a particular reason to not switch to mouthfill technique when interested in deeper diving than 30 m and the feel of being stuck.
But
People planning to switch to mouthfill, often have a particular reason to switch. So i think it´s good to come from this end, and ask:

how come someone has the idea to switch the equalisation technique?
and
how does the switch and the thinking behind it (about freediving, the body and oneself) help to improve the freediving?

Or differently: Everytime someone switches to mouthfill being stuck at 30m, a decision is taken against improving the freediving, and the thinking that is part of it.
If the work on mastering the mouthfill takes up the thread that was cut there, it´s good.

I know many cases where there is a knot in the still loose end, and some more who´s end is loose and fringed, and some other spooled their freediving thread up and put it in the drawer...

The

 

[esom]

It is generally agreed now that the 25/30m 'barrier' exists largely because that happens to be where most divers hit FRC.

"hitting frc" ...this concept as a description and apparent explanation is part of the diving, that is thought to be explained and described, as soon as divers are using it.

a skilled diver will not find "hitting frc" to be a great concept to explain why he can dive to 50+ with ease, why would it than be an outstanding explanation for running out of air? - not to speak of the "cause".

"cause" in our contexts is something we make up and then deal with, instead of finding it.

 

[esom]

don´t get me wrong PJB, it´s fair enough what you write i think. It´s just that i am very much in touch with the fruits of the freediving "talk" which this forum is part of. The way we talk freediving is part of the actual and sometimes sad problems. And not everybody has access or the desire to work with a coach, who compensates for the technical ideas which spread, by facilitating a holistic human learning experience.

 

[PJB]

don´t get me wrong PJB, it´s fair enough what you write i think. It´s just that i am very much in touch with the fruits of the freediving "talk" which this forum is part of. The way we talk freediving is part of the actual and sometimes sad problems. And not everybody has access or the desire to work with a coach, who compensates for the technical ideas which spread, by facilitating a holistic human learning experience.

Hey esom. No sweat at all, I get the point you're trying to make: fair comment! But at the same time - if my comment had come at the start of the thread you'd be correct, but after all the comment before one would assume the participants would have grounded themselves in the general principles of equalisation by now. Maybe not... But the bottom line is the 25/30 barrier exists for virtually all divers (other than the uniquely talented) purely because the air needed to equalise runs out at that point due to 'average' lung volume. So advice to the effect that a diver should avoid 'cheating' with Frenzel and should be working on other methods first is not necessarily productive. Equalising efficiently (not falling behind) and then refilling the mouth before arriving at FRC is simply a necessary part of the process. According to Zuccari few divers have the ability to refill/recharge deeper than 30m, and even fewer after 30m. Once you 'get' Frenzel you're on your way...which is of course why it always comes with the caveat that depth should be approached carefully to allow adaptation and prevent the risk of squeeze. Proper/'true' mouthfill can come later

 

[esom]

well, i critisised "frc" as a concept with relation to deep frenzel before. i did not see a my argument discussed

It´s simply not true that only a few divers can frenzel (dive) deep well. But even if it was true, that it´s few people who can, for what should that be an argument? the much more important question here would be: how many can learn? - most i´d say

 

[PJB]

well, i critisised "frc" as a concept with relation to deep frenzel before. i did not see a my argument discussed

It´s simply not true that only a few divers can frenzel (dive) deep well. But even if it was true, that it´s few people who can, for what should that be an argument? the much more important question here would be: how many can learn? - most i´d say

Sorry esom, you're wrong. Perhaps because you misunderstand to core of what I'm trying to convey to you in the interests of the original discussion in the thread. Which is this: frenzel is not 'advanced' - it is the easiest and most effective method (for most) to move through the 30m mark. But the point is that its counter productive to wait till you arrive at 30/35 when (most) reach the edge of their residual capacity and then start trying force air up. The process has to start happening earlier (20/25). So when you see posts here suggesting that frenzel and 'grouper call' are 'advanced' it creates misconception about their function and what the objective is, which is to have enough air sealed in the mouth/nose cavity prior to reaching residual volume so that you can continue the descent. After that its mostly about relaxation and timing. As for being able to 'recharge' air in mouth& nose below 35m, I'll leave you to have that debate with Andrea Zuccari. Maybe he's the one needing advice? Signing off on this thread, enjoy the deep