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How well do you think you breathe?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

You and I are very different breeds of scientist. That much is certain. I wonder if you would permit me one, two-part question.

If, in fact, your own conclusions are true... And for that matter, any/all of the yogi claims as well. Do you, at least, conclude that all of these anomalies must have a scientific explanation (even if current science is not able to answer them) and thus, should have the capability of being repeated in a controlled environment? Will our ancestors definitively know the reasons, or do you think the answer will forever elude the endeavor of human enlightenment?

Thank you for your response.

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The experiment I did was similar to one of the experiments that Swami Rama did.

It was 1992 and I had recently learned that a russian 'psychic' named Nina Kulagina had been studied by many russian scientists. I had even seen videos of her moving objects in sealed air-tight containers, just by using her mind. The russian scientists said that she could move large metal objects (up to 400g), small plastic objects, but she could NOT move objects in a vacuum, which implied that whatever energy (or acoustic waves) needed air, even though there was no obvious movement of air in the boxes because they were airtight. Given an array of dozens of matches (the small matches used to light cigarettes), she could move just one of the matches and leave the others alone.

Kulagina became very famous in Russia and she was accused of being a fraud. She was taken to court. However, the russian scientists defended her; of the russian scientists, seven of them were Nobel Laureates.

After hearing the testimony of the scientists, as well as the accusations of 'fraud', the jury decided that Kulagina was real, not a fraud, and that her 'powers' or abilities were real.

These were some of the most respected scientists in the world, and after their research they were willing to defend Kulagina in court. But, people believe what they want to believe, regardless of any research that has been done. This is why research is not effective, because it doesn't convince people of things. Even if Swami Rama stopped his heart in a lab, some people still don't believe it.

The Soviet government then began investing in psychic research for military purposes, after the nobel laureates verified Kulagina's abilities. This led to the famous telepathy experiment with Yuri Kemensky, when Yuri Kemensky managed to cause a heart attack in another telepath 1000 kilometers away.

Anyway, after seeing this info on Kulagina in 1992, I set up my own experiment which was similar to one of Rama's experiments. I set up an airtight container, and inside, I suspended a plastic drinking straw. So, the drinking straw was almost like the hand of a clock, free to rotate in the container. First, I tried 'normal' methods to make the straw move, like using magnets and blowing or banging the container. This caused the straw to shake or vibrate due to mechanical force, but the straw could never rotate like the hands of a clock. So, the goal was to make the straw rotate or spin in the container, like Swami Rama made the needles spin (but Swami Rama made metal needles spin, and plastic is much harder to move).

I had no idea what to do. I just sat in front of the container each day for 30 minutes and 'willed' for the straw to move. 70 days passed with nothing. Then, one day, my mind went blank, and suddenly the straw rotated VIOLENTLY and it hit the side of the container after about 180 degrees and jammed in that position. This was because the straw had not been centered in the container. I was in shock! I showed my mom the container, and how the straw had moved and jammed.

The next day I tried again, and again the straw moved! However, after that I couldn't make the straw move again despite 100 or more tries. Eventually I tried a metal needle and managed once to make it move, but it was very erratic, obviously I did not have the concentration and relied on 'luck' to hit the correct state of mind. Anyway, it was enough to convince me that something was going on.

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
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That sounds almost like an "alpha state".

If I recall correctly (I'm too lazy to open up another browser window to Google it just now) the alpha brain waves are the slowest moving ones that occur only during a dreamlike state.
That's why hypnosis works. It puts the subject into a nearly-sleep state which exposes the subconscious of the individual to suggestion.

Some people can put themselves into this state of mind.

Eric - I sure wish you had e-mail or PMs, I have an experience I'd share with you as I think, of anyone on this board, you'd be most likely to relate -
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Mate, post away! Don't worry about other people judging you - this thread has gotten pretty interesting, and it's only the weak minded people who would attack someones innermost beliefs because they're skeptical.

Incidently, would people say it's possible to concentrate on nothing at all during CW/dynamic? Or is the physical act of moving/equalising a concious decision?
I used to have an EEG machine and I don't think that dominance of alpha or beta or theta or delta waves is the key. Instead, the keys seem to be:

1. EEG coherence between left and right hemispheres (when the waveforms of the left and right hemispheres are in phase)
2. Potential difference between frontal lobe and rear lobe (Nina Kulagina developed a 50 Volt potential difference between her front and rear lobes)

Experiments on 'yogic flyers' have noticed that their EEG coherence goes off the scale.

Kulagina reported a sharp pain in her spine right before the object would move. This would imply that some sort of kundalini energy was at work. For more on kundalini, you should refer to Bentov's Hypothesis described in the book 'Kundalini: Psychosis or Transcendence.' Bentov's hypothesis explains a huge number of phenomena I have experienced.

When Wim Hof set the world record for immersion in zero celsius water (with no wetsuit) with 66 minutes, without his core temperature dropping below 35.5C, some people could still argue that he fooled every scientist and guinness judge by some sort of hypnosis! Wim Hof has no body fat... he says he uses Tummo yoga (tibetan kundalini). Wim Hof has also climbed to 7500m on Mount Everest naked (except for shorts), despite -100C wind chill.

Again, people believe what they want to believe. My experiences is that skeptics are afraid that these things are true. Skeptics find great comfort believing that they understand the universe. When something is presented to a skeptic, which goes against their 'theory' of the universe, the skeptic becomes extremely defensive, because the skeptic doesn't want to be wrong about the universe. No skeptic has ever made a great discovery. Einstein, Newton, Edison, Tesla, Galileo; these people were not skeptics. Skeptics burned Galileo; Skeptics laughed at Newton.

When I was in residence at UBC, I was expelled from the residence for knowing specific information about a person. The people theorized that there was no way I could know that information without spying or stalking that person. I never spied or stalked that person. I gave my explanation as to how I knew what I knew. They laughed!

I suppose you could say that I never got expelled; maybe it was self hypnosis.

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
Originally posted by efattah
Skeptics burned Galileo; Skeptics laughed at Newton.

I'm sure there were those who laughed at Newton. And the history books are filled with notable scientists who were killed for pursuing 'heretical' research. Galileo, however, died of natural causes at his villa in Arcetri on January 8, 1642.
I think he means "burned" as in they shot him down - he openly made some statements and was condemned for it.
oh. ok. Just wanted to make sure we stay historically accurate while we contemplate the metaphysical :D.

Regarding Wim Hof; His 66 minute immersion was also accepted for the Guinness world record book. An excerpt of the interview can be found at: www-staff.lboro.ac.uk/~hugh/BBC%20-%20Tomorrow's%20World%20-%2013%20March%202002.htm (sorry couldn't make it a link directly, it was too long and got corrupted by the auto-url feature, just cut and paste...). It makes for interesting reading. The rabbit hole might be deeper than we think.

On the more humourus side (found while searching about Wim Hof, not to get too off topic....): Go to http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/ and check out todays record. It features a picture of the man with the longest ear hair (!). A whopping 13 centimeters straight out of his ears. A turn on for the ladies maybe? :D
going back to the yogic flying thing... is there any shred of believable evidence that it can actually be done? (i can't believe i'm even asking this question! :duh)

as you've probably gathered, i am generally sceptical when it comes to these things. :) with a background in theoretical high energy physics research i find it impossible to accept many of these bold claims without scientific proof.

what are people supposed to think when someone claims that they can levitate and fly about like superman, and yet they are unable to produce any form of evidence? are we supposed to take their word for it and then hold them in awe? is that what many of these people secretly want?... for other us mere mortals to wow at their amazing super-powers? you have to remember this aspect too... as i've said before, the people who make these bold claims potentially have a lot to gain...

i really do genuinely wish that yogic flying was possible - i'd love to be able to levitate and fly around - it sounds like an absolute blast! :t

here's an interest link... http://www.randi.org/ :)
First of all, James Randi is a bigger fraud than anyone he is trying to defraud. He runs a $1,000,000 'challenge' for anyone to prove a paranormal claim. However, he is allowed to preverify your claim before hand. If he is satisfied that you are a fake, he will let you humiliate yourself in front of the world. If he senses that you might be real, he will not even allow you to apply! This has already happened; several PhD's have applied to win the $1,000,000 prize, and each time their requests to even participate have been denied! You have to dig deep to find that out though.

Anyway, my experience is that in general, if people make a 'claim' that they can do something extraordinary, usually they can't, which is why they are making the claim. Their need to make the claim means that they need to boost their ego. The people who really can do miraculous things don't need to boost their ego; they already know what they are capable of, so they have no reason to either claim miraculous powers, nor to demonstrate them. Having said that, those same people will sometimes do demonstrations in private, to a very select few people whom they judge will not turn them into lab rats! Anyway, this philosophy explains why it is so hard to get someone to demonstrate something. If the personal has a need to 'prove' something, then they probably are a fake.

I finished UBC with enough credits to have degrees in Math, Physics and Electrical Engineering. At school they taught me the scientific method, which is a wonderful thing. And because of their teachings, I believe that almost nothing is impossible. In my opinion, levitation is not only possible, but is quite easy when compared to other, far more miraculous abilities. Further, a scientific explanation for those abilities is not hard to find. The levitator awakens kundalini (see Bentov's hypothesis). This change in the nervous system causes large electrical currents flowing up and down the spinal cord, simultaneously, at equivalent frequencies. Each current causes a magnetic field, but since the currents move in opposite directions, they cancel each other. Maxwell himself, the pioneer of electromagnetism, insisted that each electromagnetic wave has a scalar component. Scientists did not understand that so they 'discarded' Maxwell's scalar component. However, open minded researchers have recently discovered that the scalar component is gravity. Einstein himself sensed that was true when he published his unified theory of electricity and gravity, which stated (correct me if I'm wrong), that gravity can exist without electromagnetism, but every electromagnetic wave has a small component of gravity. This is why so many researchers today are working at building counter-wound solenoids (solenoids which are coiled in one direction, then the other), which causes a zero inductance, zero magnetic field device, which causes a massive cancellation of electromagnetic waves, resulting in a small amount of gravity; I am on several electrogravity e-mail lists and apparently the latest twist is that cancellation is not enough, but the magnetic fields must be asymmetrical (i.e. changing).

Anyway, if the yogi has opposing currents flowing along his spine, changing in the correct way, these 'new' theories would then predict that gravity would be produced. If the gravity were in the upwards direction, then the yogi would levitate. If the currents were not smooth and balanced, the gravity would fluctuate, and the yogi would hop or bounce around.

This explanation may not be completely accurate, but it gives an idea of what might be happening. Bentov's experiments showed that people who had claimed to have awakened kundalini had strong magnetic fields emanating from their skulls (just as Nina Kulagina did), and most of the same people had normal body temperatures of only 34 or 35C (I met two such people in Florida). If these people do have strong magnetic fields coming from their heads, then there must be electric currents causing those fields. If we accept that Maxwell or Einstein knew what they were talking about, then add 2+2.

The EM cancellation could also be used to explain telepathy, but it would take me another 10 pages to go through that hypothesis.

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
Skeptics will argue that Einstein himself withdrew his unified theory of electricity and gravity, saying he was in error. However, Einstein also said he was wrong about the cosmological constant. Now, even mainstream science believes that Einstein was right all along about the cosmological constant. So maybe he was right in his unified theory, as well. Time will tell.

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
Incredible (little off-topic, but wellcome off-topics like these) thread.
(excuse my poor English, I'm Spanish, and everybody knows our inability to speak English :)

People claim they are scientists and just hide themselves into a cocoon. It's evident that to be creative you must explore NEW ways. And of course, make mistakes. But if you restrict yourself to the stablished ways... what the f*ck do you think new knowledge is going to come???. So sistematically disaprove and deny everything you can't prove is not scientific. You can say from a scientific point that this cause does not lead to that effect, and you must PROVE it. Then you have rejected scientifically something. So agnosticism is scientific from my point of view, but both catholicism and atheism aren't. Because we don't have any link (cause-effect link) from nature to God.

I strongly believe (note that this is from my guts,
not from my scientific brain :) ) in unification of electricity and gravity.. In fact one of my dream-machines would be a sense-coupled spectrum analyzer. That is: A device that sweeps all the EM (and air wave) spectrum and displays it to your senses (going down to audible frecuencies or visible points). With 2 such devices we could see
how this EM conditions in this space-time and that EM conditions in other space-time will create
an unexpected PHYSICAL reaction in another space-time. The tiny window we are actually sensing is from 20-20KHz (human audible sounds) and from IR to UV (human visible ligth). Everything in between
is UNKNOWN to us, and I think most of the mind-matter interesting material is actually there.
This machine will make us see that when someone is scared (by instance) some portion of the EM spectrum around him will be excited. In fact, dogs know when you are chickening out, and they sense ultrasounds (20Khz+ air waves),
so maybe there is some info?

The lack of ego from the yogic path is the main thing that makes it so difficult to put a yogi in a lab or in a public show. Simply put: If a yogi makes a sound demonstration about his powers... he's a fake-fakir (no pun intended), not a yogi.

So, I'm really disappointed with the scientific aproach today... It's like the Extraterrestrial Beings issue: "scientist" simply deny them. I don't know if they exists, but that doesnt mean i can demonstrate they don't, so I can't scientifically aprove or disaprove their existence. Nearest Galaxy from our Milky Way is Andromeda (M31).
It's distance from Earth is 2.1 billion years, the time human being has been (as far as we know today) on Earth. So, when we look at M31 through Binoculars (pretty shocking celestial object) we are seing how M31 was before man was on Earth... You see? just a walk from Milky Way to Andromeda and man disappear from Universe existence... So what could happen if we take another step? Another brand of humans could appear in some other place? And if we take 3,10,10...1000 steps? Noone knows! neither "scientists"
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er... and what would our girlfriends think of us if they
see this thread!
or... what girlfriends??? :)
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Originally posted by efattah
First of all, James Randi is a bigger fraud than anyone he is trying to defraud. He runs a $1,000,000 'challenge' for anyone to prove a paranormal claim. However, he is allowed to preverify your claim before hand. If he is satisfied that you are a fake, he will let you humiliate yourself in front of the world. If he senses that you might be real, he will not even allow you to apply! This has already happened; several PhD's have applied to win the $1,000,000 prize, and each time their requests to even participate have been denied! You have to dig deep to find that out though.

Anyway, my experience is that in general, if people make a 'claim' that they can do something extraordinary, usually they can't, which is why they are making the claim. Their need to make the claim means that they need to boost their ego. The people who really can do miraculous things don't need to boost their ego; they already know what they are capable of, so they have no reason to either claim miraculous powers, nor to demonstrate them. Having said that, those same people will sometimes do demonstrations in private, to a very select few people whom they judge will not turn them into lab rats! Anyway, this philosophy explains why it is so hard to get someone to demonstrate something. If the personal has a need to 'prove' something, then they probably are a fake.

(snip possible levitation explanation.../Tommy)

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

An interesting post! It opens up the rambling part in me... :) My view is also a bit different. If someone feels a need to prove something, I say let that someone prove it. If it then turns out he or she is a fake, fine, at least we found that out. If not, hey how interesting, the world just got more colourful. Saying that this guy (anyone) who wants to prove levitation (for instance) is probably a fake _because_ he/she wants to prove it, is really to say that levitation should never be proved. Why? Where does that lead us? We are just to accept that the reason we have not seen anyone levitate (or simliar amazing feat) is because those who can, just don't feel like showing it?

See, this is what it all boils down to. The reason there are so many sceptics out there is that many of these claims (bending spoons, reading minds, levitating, talking with the dead, crystal healing etc etc) don't have a shred of substantial proof. Just reasons and excuses for why it cannot be demonstrated. That only works so far.

Think about it. Why are we wasting time discussing this, when the issue can be so easily be settled by a simple demonstration? If these yogis (for instance) can levitate, why not let them levitate in front of the world, and after that no one can argue (with any real weight) that it is not possible. Take Wim Hof for example. Was he a fake when he said he could subject himself to extreme cold? Well, no. He sat in cold water for 66 minutes. Of course, one could argue that it was a fraud made in cooperation with the news networks and all the other people involved. In reality this is unlikely because of the scale and openess of the demonstration. That is why I am more inclined to belive he really did it, than not. That is not the case with them yogis.

You say you can read my mind. Fine, show it to me. If you say you don't want to because you feel you have nothing to prove, then you must also accept I cannot belive in your claim. Paranomal supporters (not saying you are one, just talking in general now) need to take themselfes seriously before they can expect others to take them seriously. This is their biggest problem. Not only sceptics can get defensive discussing the paranormal... (I once got barked at when asking for proof at a new age expo a few years ago)

By the way, being a sceptic is not a bad thing. There are numerous situations in real life where it can be real handy. For instance if you are looking to buy a used car. Don't belive everything the salesman claims and you will likely make a better decision.

Research, demonstrations and experiments have in part evolved because of human nature. People. can imagine things, hallucinate things, dream things, missinterpret things, forget things etc etc. People can also lie or withhold information. Even when looking you in the eye. I am a firm beliver in the value of proof. What scares me a bit is when people just accept amazing things not proven and take firm belif in them. That is where things can get out hand and end up in tears. We all need to excercise great caution in these matters.

Also let me say, so far this thread as been very civilized (unlike other similar ones on the internet) and interesting. I get more and more impressed with all you guys as time passes. Some of us question things fairly heavily in our posts, and hey look and behold.. a few hours later, a polite and thoughtful answer appears. Great stuff. As a result I am now an intrigued sceptic. :)

Finaly, going back to James Randy. Is there any info on why these people where rejected? Links? Articles?Just out of curiousity.
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Originally posted by BlueIcarus
er... and what would our girlfriends think of us if they
see this thread!
or... what girlfriends??? :)

Well as we are obviously nuts (all freedivers have a few bolts loose by default), my theory is that they probably levitated up and away... far away.

"Honey... please come back down, it's just a theory! You really can't levitate... the thread you read is a spoof... hello, do you hear me.... I am down here... honey..."


If you re-read one of my posts, I mentioned how I was expelled from a residence at UBC for 'knowing the impossible.'

So those people did witness a 'demo', even though it was never intended that way.

Likewise, when I was doing the straw moving experiment, the second time I managed to do it, I demonstrated it right in front of my sister, and she saw the whole thing. I say that, but neither hope nor expect that you take it at face value.

The seven nobel laureates who studied Kulagina saw everything she could do, in the most strict circumstances, and video taped it too. Is that a demo or what? You act as if there have never been any demonstrations. Do you think Kulagina can fool seven nobel level scientists, for months on end? When she was accused of being a fraud, she was vindicated in a court of law. Is that worth nothing? Kulagina's heart rate would go up to 220 beats per minute when she was using her 'powers', and she eventually DIED of heart attack from all the stress the demos caused to her heart.

What about Swami Rama moving the needle with his mind, at the Menninger Institute in the USA? Another demo, with more proof.

Even that was not enough so I did my own experiment, and proved it to myself!

You say, 'there is not a shred of substantial proof.'

Wrong. There is. You just don't want to see it.

Remember, that to prove something is possible, requires only a single verified instance of it being done. To prove that it is impossible.... is impossible. The analogy is simple; you ask me, "are all crows black?" You tell me, "Every crow I have seen is black" Does that prove that all crows are black? How do you prove that all crows are black? You can't. But, if we see a single white crow, it proves that all crows are not black. To prove that "All crows are black" is impossible. To prove that "Not all crows are black" requires only ONE instance of a white crow. Sure, maybe there are a lot of FAKE white crows that are really black crows painted white -- but if you can find one genuine white crow, then you know the truth. Did the russian scientists find a white crow? Did the researchers at the Menninger institute find a white crow?

I will look for the link to the James Randi fiasco (with the PhD's applications not being accepted).

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
Ted wrote:

Do you, at least, conclude that all of these anomalies must have a scientific explanation (even if current science is not able to answer them) and thus, should have the capability of being repeated in a controlled environment?


Science can only go as far as it's tools allows. If we make a better telescope, we can see "outwards" better and gain new knowledge, if we make a better microscope we can see better "inwards" and the same happens. The question is where do we place extrasensory perception, experiences of higher states of consciousness, paranormal phenomena, intuition and the existence of God? If we can place these accurately then we can start to move in the direction of making tools that can start to unravel all this mess. And I say mess, not because the above don't exist but because there's a whole lot of extra baggage that doesn't belong there in the first place. I refer to cultural influences and religious beliefs.

There is one underlying common denominator and that is that these experiences are experienced by people of all religions, all philosofical attitudes, all personal beliefs, level of education of the individual, race, sex, cultural origins and a long etc. In other words a Budhist cauld experience what a Christian experiences and if you "distill" or "precipitate" the experience, i.e. strip it of it's baggage, I think you'll find that the experiences are almost identical. What confuses the story is our deep attachment to our particular beliefs, and if it ain't so it ain't so!

This obviously won't work if you just take a couple of people, but if one studies these type of experiences in many people of all different backgrounds, patterns will start emerging. Experiences will be able to start being classified and the information that results will point towards the universal nature of these phenomena. Everyone loves, cries, laughs, feels rough sometimes, why not also have God experiences, clear intuition and visions? Nature works the same way everywhere, why any exeptions? Once you start having patterns you can start thinking of systematizing and repeatability, two of the backbones of science. For me all this is not unscientific, it's just that mainstream science hasn't found the handle on the frying pan yet and is getting constantly burned.

If culture, education and religion aren't the common denominator what is? Well, it's simple, everybody has a brain and a nervous system! So many people are picking up on something that's just out of range of the normal sensory apparatus we have. In fact, the only tool we have at the moment is the brain, because it's only with the brain that we are experiencing these rather extraordinary events. Science so far can not offer any other alternative tool to explore the finer levels of existence.

You can say that only unbalanced people will have these experiences because of faulty brain functioning. High wired synapses running amok, especially during freediving ;) Nope, faulty or stressed physiology can give rise to halucinations and unreal projections, but generally will not express experiences that make you end up feeling great, heal some disease one has had, provide knowledge intuitively or telepathically or simply make you understand your place in this whole cosmic dance. Just to mention a few...

One of the first humanistic psychologists, Abraham Maslow, decided to study people who were healthy and succesful instead of people who were ill. Summarizing, he found that one in 3000 people are extremely succesful and that they also have a much larger capacity to have what he called "peak experiences" - experiences that go beyond the ordinary, in short what the yogis have been talking about for years. These people are healthy succesful individuals, and it seems thay have more paranormal experiences?

Either Maslow is nuts or there is some heavy truth somewhere. But we have an example right here, in DB. Who do we know that is a world class freediver, succesfully experimenting and developing new theories and practices, posting valuable information-packed posts, and also has paranormal experiences, as well as being brave enough to talk about them openly? Eric Fattah, I point me finger at thee! Guilty as charged!

Brain wave coherence is very important and definitely an important indicator for factoring in the phenomenological/ empirical nature of these experiences as opposed to the subjective/psychologial deviations that most mainstream scientists consider them to be.

When brain waves from different parts of the brain are coherent it also means that the different parts of the brain (responsible for the different functionings of our body) are working better together. There is much more efficiency between the parts and this contributes to a much better functioning whole/individual, psychologically as well.

Studies show that when we are asleep, there is almost no coherence, when we wake up there generally is around 30% coherence. Now here comes the interesting part, when we have that important flash of inspiration, you know, when we say "Ah Ha" or the lightbulb over our head turns on in the comics, we have 100% coherence at that moment. This is a moment of great inspiration, energy or fulfillment. The same thing happens when one "transcends" or goes into samadhi in meditation. This is measurable. One can not measure the Absolute, pure consciousness or pure existence or Being, whatever you want to call it, but you can measure it's effects on the physiology.

I argue for an empirical approach towards all these metaphysical considerations and experiences. It's not out of the realm of science. If something is really true, you should be able to take any angle and find that it holds. My own personal experiences of intuitions are completely empirical, in other words they happen when I least expect them and definitely any psychologial predisposition to them is inexistent at the moment.

The other day I wanted to go down to the gallery to do some work, but something said I should stay home. There was no intellectual justification that I could imagine for staying home but recognizing the "feeling" for what it was I decided to stay. A couple of hours later someone rings the bell, - we live in an isolated seven house village - no one was expected and it turned out to be the electric company wanting to check out the state of some electric lines that run over part of our property, making sure the tree branches were not to close etc. So we agree over which branches to cut, the guy was really nice and somehow I felt he had something to do with freediving! So I steered the subject to sports and apnea and he lit up saying he was just starting in spearfishing and freediving so now I have another buddy!

In this case, my "psychological disposition" i.e. ego was a little bothered and opposed to having this intuition at this time because I wanted to be at the gallery! I only stayed because I have learnt the value of listening to one's inner voice. This is just a small example, and one could call it coincidence. But what do you call it when it happens again and again and you learn to recognize the symptoms of a genuine intuition? You have no choice but to accept it as a repeatable systematic empirical experience far from the realm of any belief system.

I think I should title this email:

God has nothing to do with religion. Thank God!

Thinking again I'll substitute "religion" for "belief"

I respect all religions, their prophets and their saints - I may not agree with some of the details, or some of the more unfortunate behaviours of religious instiutions, but the essence is there, in the hearts of all men and women, no matter if they are or not religious. I mention God, but this is so private that I'll just say: don't belive in God, experience God! How to do is up to you, that is if you even want to do it. It's not important, being yourself is important. Reality is universal and you won't escape for long anyway. ;)

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Real smart people in this forum.
Feels like I'm at home and not a weirdo anymore

Thanks Adrian,Eric

PS: I'm impressed to see everyday the inspiring talent & genius thought glowing here
Hi again. Despite of the insults I receive from certain members of this forum, I will continue to post for one reason:

I like to help people despite of my limited knowledge, simply because love is the most important thing of our material existence.

And those people who insult are not doing any better, they simply will enhance their chances of not achieving spiritual inmortality (that if they are believers in terms of taoist & buddhist philosophy), and any bad thing you do in this life it will come to you sooner or later. So I warn them (for their own good).

OK, let me continue with my post:

Meditation involves more than sitting and breathing (for beginners is a must), it involves opening our physical body to the reality. Not the physical, since it is only a mirror, but the cosmic void, the source of the universal energy that regulates or tridimensional universe and all other realities that coexist.

OK, you might thing what the hell has this to do with freediving. It does because if we change our chip from Western, scientifically conditioned and trained minds, to the Eastern thought that was developed well before Europeans had a clue of what was life, then we will understand that what we see with our eyes is, as I said, a pure reflection. In order to meditate properly, which is task that will be accomplished in a minimum of 20 years of DAILY meditation, we need to command our breathing with our minds and play with internal visualisation in order to open the energy centres of our physical bodies and also strengthen our internal energy (chi) and maintain physical health and longevity. A guidance of a master is important if we want to speed up the process and if we want to avoid getting seriously injured if trying higher spiritual practices such as opening the 'Central energy Channel'.

Yogi and Taoist feats are simply an example of what can be achieved if we subdue our bodies to the power of our minds. Did you know that there was a Taoist master in the 1600s that used to practice breatholding for hours under a pond located in his backyard. You may say BS, I say why not? Think here a bit: if you place yourself know in the middle of nowhere without any TV, work obligations, etc.; in other words, living without the rules of our modern society, couldn't you achieve whatever you decided to by simply doing that repeatedly and for years and years. The answer is yes. Anything can be done if we put real effort into it as long as we keep away from the negative influence of external stressors rendered by our society in general and its by-products: work environment, air pollution, TV, consumerism, electrical appliances, cars, microwaves, cell phones, noise, and a list of many other things. In short a world full of life and energy stealing positive ions.

All of these by-products will rob us from achieving meditation masterhood, longevity, and ultimately spiritual inmortality. Maybe freediving is simply another stressor (sorry here I don't want to offend anyone). What I meant is freediving will be just a hobby, not the real goal of our lives. This goal will allow us to focuse in ourselves; through our inner power we will unleash our vast potential that is ultimately related to the source, where we come from. And from that moment, once we understand that life is simply a stage then we will stop the birth cycle. Look guys, I never believed of this stuff a year ago. But serious daily meditation for 2 around two hours in my garden, at night and dawn has opened some gates I had closed all my life. I start to truly believe that there is something more than equations and lab tests, why? because I've started to feel and see things. I even had once a glimpse into the future. Not long ago i guessed something that was going to happen in my personal life, and it happened. And something else that I am an not going to reveal because is personal and related with my Karma.

On the other hand, if we transmutate matter into energy (like Ta-Mo did when he faced the wall in Shao-Lin for nine years leaving a mark on the wall) then we will be able to breathe underwater for hours. Because my friends, at this stage you stop breathing through the respiratory passages, you will breathe through your skin. Sounds crazy hey, doesn't it?

If you still don't believe it how do you explain that some meditators give up food permanently (breatharians). Some yogis have been able to fast for 200 days non-stop, but breatharians went further as they have achieved the power of living by absorbing cosmic energy (as E=mc^2). Just think here:

How long can you live without food and how long can you live withour air? In the first case probably a month. Try the same without air.

So why not give up food indefinitively if you are able to?

Just start meditating seriously and you'll be surprised of things you would have never believed before.

Recommended manual (for beginners):

A complete book of Chinese Health and Healing, Reid, D.



This and the rest of Reid's books are a must for meditators.

For advanced: Qigong, Secret of Youth-Da Mo's Muscle/Tendon Marrow/Brain, Jwing Ming Yang.

Link: http://www.redwingbooks.com/products/books/QigSecYou.cfm

I am planning to read this one when ready.

Love, gerard.