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Hydro/pneumatic gun

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

Thanks for the reference, I note that this is on page 568 of a very long thread on pneumatic spearguns, spears and speartips! I see that the modified gun has a completely new titanium muzzle, titanium piston with two "O" rings and titanium damper with a working course for the piston of 375 mm. A longer version has also been built increasing this dimension to 560 mm. The standard hydropneumatic speargun has a working course for the spear of 400 mm as of course there is no piston. This represents a reduction of 300 mm from the longer RPS-3 prototype's dimension of 700 mm. As the longer pneumatic conversion of the gun is 820 mm in length it indicates that the new muzzle is 1 cm longer than the standard muzzle which is basically a guiding tube to properly align the shaft into the inner barrel as it is pushed through the usually tight muzzle seal. Judging by other forum discussions over there the RPS-3 is a difficult gun to repair when replacing the rubber hose and eliminating any pressure leaks, both air and water, plus alternative spare parts need to be sourced due to the lack of original items.
 
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Thats great Pete

Its going to take me a while to get through all this info.

I still have the manual for one of the guns somewhere.

Cheers.
 
An unknown is the length of the new piston as that affects the calculation for the working stroke. The piston length has to be subtracted from the standard harpoon travel distance in the gun as the piston tail will stop short of the previous position when it left the inner barrel. I just measured my RPS-3 and the overall gun length is 640 mm. That indicates that a 700 mm working stroke gun would have been 940 mm in length, not 950 mm, if it had used the production plastic handle which is slightly shorter. I have never seen a photo of the prototype, just the later "Wasp" thanks to your previous information.
 
The end caps on the pressure reservoir must have been tightened by a gorilla at the "Vega" factory that manufactured the RPS-3, I have never been able to undo them without risk of damaging the surface finish on the guns. That is until I made this tool, a special tube spanner two days ago and then removing the caps was a breeze, provided that a lathe was used to firmly hold the gun in.
 

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Thanks again to Loka and Popgun Pete for so much information on these guns.

James
 
Well here is a bit more info. In fact a lot more info! Once I got into the reservoir on the newer RPS-3 gun I could see how it all went together, whereas the front end bulkhead was always too tight to remove on the partially dismantled and damaged RPS-3 gun and I could never figure out how to undo it without completely trashing it, so all I could do was pull the inner barrel out and look inside the reservoir tank from the rear end. Fortunately that stubborn front bulkhead also yielded to the special tube spanner I made as the twisting effort required was transmitted at four locating points, not one as it is with the standard "C" spanner that was supplied with the RPS-3 gun. That "C" standard spanner only tore up the metal without moving anything else on the damaged gun, so I gave up on the newer gun as it did not look like moving at all. Why so bloody tight? I don't really know, unless it was a deliberate strategy by the "Vega" factory to keep curious eyes from ever looking inside. I could even see where the aluminium had "set up" on the locating points (there are four of them each spaced at 90 degrees around the front bulkhead periphery) as the "C" spanner had bit hard into the metal, the factory assembly guy had taken two shots at it, shifting the spanner position each time, I could see the marks he left! I need that guy to load my supercharged pneumatic spearguns!



Propensity for Pressure Leaks
Anyway now I know why the RPS-3 guns can leak air at the reservoir ends; the rubber packing washers need to expand radially enough to seal on the inner barrel tube's outer wall by screwing in the small threaded aluminum rings that push against the rubber washers from the rear, causing the rubber washers to bulge outwards (and simultaneously inwards). However the threads on the periphery of the small aluminum rings are rather fine, too much force on them and they will strip out. The main screw threads used on the bulkheads, which are designed to take the gun's full chamber pressure, are much more substantial and being longer have a greater number of threads engaged with the matching internal threads on the outer tank.


Substitute Seals
I measured up all the seal seating diameters and the rubber washers can be replaced with "O" rings. The existing inner barrel to bulkhead seal at each end consists of two flat rubber packing washers located side by side, but the one nearest to the bulkhead wall can be replaced with an "O" ring of 11.80 ID x 2.65 SW (metric size R-10) which is a very good fit [from the Aldi "Workzone" yellow box set]. The second rubber washer is retained to provide a spacer between the new "O" ring seal and the thin steel washer and the threaded aluminum ring directly behind it. For the main bulkhead bosses (2) and the threaded connecting boss (1) to the rear grip a 7/8" ID x 3/32" SW "O" ring (imperial size R-15) [from the Aldi "Workzone" blue box set] can be substituted for the extremely poor quality rubber washers now used (3 rings). When using "O" rings on these bosses the large screw threads need to be temporarily covered up with vinyl tape to prevent the sharp edged threads at the annular grooved base of the threads cutting through the rings as they slide into the seating position. I learnt this the hard way as a brand new "O" ring was sliced in half before my eyes, then I took a much closer look to find out why. Rubber washers get squeezed up to seal when used as a packing type seal, so they can take a small cut and still seal OK, but "O" rings must be completely damage free to work. Their benefit is that they offer a dynamic seal, far superior to a rubber packing arrangement, provided the metal seating surfaces are smooth enough quality for "O" rings. Once converted to "O" ring seals the RPS-3 gun held pressure without a single bubble forming (in a bucket of water) for a couple of hours, something the rubber washer equipped RPS-3 gun could never do.


Failure to Operate
And now for why my "new" RPS-3 gun did not work before; water squirts out from under the rubber hose where it is tied with multi-cord wraps onto the inner barrel tube. I only discovered this fact by assembling the gun without the pressure chamber installed and then inserted the spear with my other hand pulling down on the muzzle to prevent any leaks occurring elsewhere and then I saw the water gush out. This in a "brand new" unused gun! I swapped the older gun's inner barrel for the new one and the gun now works, but still some water was found inside the pressure reservoir after pulling the gun down afterwards, so I think the cord wraps need retying as the "O" ring seals should be keeping water out. Hence the culprit must be the rubber hose in terms of how it clamps down onto the aluminium inner barrel tube. That is why the gun was never used!


Pressure/Force Considerations in RPS-3 seal area design
As the rubber packing arrangement with washers has to work in both directions, i.e. retain compressed air inside the reservoir all the time while keeping water at high hydrostatic pressure out of the reservoir when the gun was charged up to shoot they sealed the annular gaps at the bulkheads by designing them to be very small. This meant that the screw threads on the aluminum rings could also be small (with a fine pitch) as the force they worked against was low because of the small cross-sectional area of the annular gap that was exposed to high pressure air at the face of the rubber washers. Using "O" rings against the inner barrel instead of the rubber washers creates a larger "effective area" gap as air pressure faces the full section width of the "O" ring, which is much larger than the original parts gap. This does not matter at the front end of the reservoir as the pressure seals are located inside the pressure reservoir, but at the rear they are on the outside, just in front of the sear disc with the inner tooth. This seemed a mad idea at first, but they have done it that way to stop water from the charged gun penetrating forwards from the rear grip section's interior which will be at the same elevated pressure as the compressed air, and which is at slightly higher pressure as the spear is inserted which could overwhelm a rubber packing type seal. However hydropneumatic guns should be able to be opened up without depressurizing their air reservoirs, so to avoid the small screw threads on the rear aluminum ring failing due to the increased force now on the replacement "O" ring, a second "O" ring (11.20 ID x 2.65 SW R-09) needs to be installed as shown in the attached diagram, thus offering a two-way sealing system at this end of the pressure reservoir.


Why use "O" rings?
The benefit of using "O" rings is that they continually reseal when you dismantle and reassemble the gun, something that rubber washers are less likely to do, plus "O" rings require less effort in screwing the parts together as there is no crushing required of rubber washers. Why did the Soviets use rubber washers instead of "O" rings? Well Soviet "O" rings for non-military use were crap and were just not up to the job.
 

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I undid the cord ties at either end and pulled the rubber pipe off the aluminium inner barrel tube to check it out and it looks OK, the rubber pipe has no cracks or splits. This rubber pipe is held tightly on the inner barrel tube by winding with numerous overlapping wraps a thin thread at two end locations (for the rubber pipe's length) where the alloy tube has been turned down in diameter to hold the rubber pipe in a fixed position on the barrel. In the photo you can see some of the 1 mm diameter holes drilled in six longitudinal straight lines of 24 holes each which are positioned (more or less) at equally spaced intervals around the circumference. That is 72 small holes drilled in total (the drill bit went right through the tube creating two holes each time) for each "RPS-3" speargun produced. No surprises then that the holes are not drilled in absolutely straight lines and that the spacing between the lines varies somewhat, indicating that the holes were created while using a drill press with the operator feeding the alloy tube through manually. What a job! I once drilled anti-suction ports in a spring gun barrel that did not originally have them and the resultant hole spacing's precision and linearity definitely deteriorated as the job wore on and my patience wore out! Plus they were larger holes, so no worries about busting the drill bit compared to a situation using a 1.0 mm diameter drill bit, that is a very small drill!
 

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As the RPS-3 hydropneumatic speargun pushes the spear out through the single rubber washer based seal installed in the muzzle using the water extruded through the many small holes in the inner barrel tube I decided to check out the combined area of these holes. Each hole is 1 mm in diameter and therefore has a cross-sectional area of 0.785 square millimetres. There are 144 holes in the rear half of the inner barrel (6 longitudinal rows of 24 holes each) which gives a total area of 113.097 square millimetres. The spear shaft is 9 mm in diameter and it is the displacement of the body of the shaft that charges the gun by moving that equivalent volume of water through the 144 holes against the air pressure acting on the other side of the rubber pipe when you force the spear into the gun during muzzle loading. The cross-sectional area of a 9 mm diameter spear shaft is 63.617 square millimetres, so the inner barrel would need 81 holes to provide an equivalent area to the muzzle opening (81 x 0.785 = 63.6). As the RPS-3 has 144 holes it has an additional portal area capacity of 78%, so there is no problem in terms of area restriction for the water flow.

What adversely affects the efficiency of the RPS-3 is that the water mass flow rate is not only determined by the combined area of the many port holes, but by how many of them there are. The water channeling through each tiny hole creates a restriction and slows the water flow down and the spear can only move out of the gun if water progressively takes its place in the inner barrel tube. So there is a rate of barrel filling effect as the gun shoots. The water speeds up going through such small holes, like water out of a garden hose nozzle, but its volume or mass flow rate is reduced. The holes in the inner barrel are small to stop air pressure in the discharged gun forcing the wall of the rubber pipe down through the holes over time, gradually extruding the rubber pipe sections over each hole and creating numerous small punctures in the pipe. Doubling the diameter of these port holes to 2 mm would mean that their area is quadrupled and this would produce even more stress on the wall of the rubber pipe, lessening its service life. Too many small holes and the inner barrel would crush due to loss of wall strength, plus there is a practical limit to drilling too many port holes as gun production would be slowed significantly.

Why make a speargun this way at all? Well you do not need precision bore tubing for your inner barrels, if fact it can be simple pipe (where the OD is to accurate size rather than the ID), thereby eliminating any concerns about piston seals conforming to the inner barrel bore if there is a slight variation in diameter of the bore as the piston progresses along its length. Today we take precision bore alloy and stainless steel tubing for granted, but that was not always the case in some countries where there was a desire to make a high quality gun, but not the necessary tubing, especially for longer barreled guns.
 
I have translated into English and slightly reformatted the text and diagrams in the 1978 "Спортсмен-Подводник" issue 51 article concerning the design and detail operation of the RPS-3 speargun in the attached Acrobat document, so now anyone with an interest can read it. The article explains everything in a very logical manner. Thanks to those who preserved these "Спортсмен-Подводник" magazines for future generations by converting them all to Acrobat pdf files.
 
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I too couldnt remove the end caps.

Thanks to you Pete this has to be the greatest knowledge database of any speargun.

For such an obscure speargun at that.

Really, this is excellent.
 
I too couldnt remove the end caps.

Thanks to you Pete this has to be the greatest knowledge database of any speargun.

For such an obscure speargun at that.

Really, this is excellent.

I figured that something was needed in English, plus I came at it from a different direction to the posters on Russian forums who are modifying their RPS-3 guns to keep them working. A lot of problems are due to how tightly the gun was assembled at the factory, almost with the strength of a crazy man, hence the user is prevented from fully opening the gun up and it can then corrode internally due to inadequate flushing out and drying. Once the rubber washers with their untrimmed mould flash flanges (the die did not close up properly and left a tiny gap, hence the flange) are tossed in the rubbish bin and replaced with "O" rings many problems disappear. The 9 mm OD shaft is a drawback, the only way around it would be to shoot a tubular steel shaft to get rid of some of the weight in the shaft, but still keep the same cross-sectional area for the propulsive force on the shaft tail. These guns are unlikely to be ever made again, it is a miracle that they were made at all as the construction is very intricate, but based on a marginal operating principle to get around not having good precision tubing for long inner barrels. Then they made it as a short gun anyway!
 
RPS-3-L version constructed with longer inner barrel, modified centre connector with rear thread adaptor allowing connection of two standard outer tank tubes which places air inlet valve pumping position at centre of gun rather than just in front of rear grip section. Main task will be to drill all those tiny 1 mm diameter holes in the new inner barrel! Of course the lengthened gun will still not float as small diameter tank (30 mm OD) and all the machined aluminium parts make for a heavy gun. Spring steel stainless spears will be used once I figure out how to tap and drill in such tough stuff as spring stainless for addition of the special RPS-3 spear tail and keep the connecting thread straight.
 
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Any more info about the RPS-3 speargun?

Has anyone considered upgrading stock ruber tube to latex tube? 1/2" ID x 1/8" wall 3/4" OD NEW Latex Rubber Tubing real thick wall tube | eBay
It has nearely the same dimesiones than stock, but latex should be much more elastic. Therefore loading and shooting should improve.

Yes they have. When the production of the guns ceased a lot of users kept their guns going by substituting parts such as the rubber tube with other types of rubber pipe as long as those pipes or tubes were the correct size in terms of their inner diameter to seal effectively on the alloy inner barrel tube. Reinforced rubber pipe was no good as the pipe has to stretch radially. The elasticity of the rubber pipe does not really effect the efficiency of the gun, the pipe basically acts as an impermeable membrane which the surrounding high air pressure acts on to apply pressure to the trapped water inside the inner barrel. Although the rubber pipe is stretched when inflated with water like a fat sausage with the ends trussed onto the inner barrel tube, the compressed air pressure acting on the exterior of the rubber pipe is the driving force and the water flowing through all the tiny holes in the inner barrel slows the water transfer rate down and that adversely affects the efficiency. If you totally depressurize the air reservoir, remove the air release screw and load the gun as a test with water in the inner barrel and then pull the trigger the spear comes out being driven by the stretched rubber pipe collapsing, but the spear has no real velocity to speak of. The thickness of the rubber pipe is for durability, otherwise it would extrude down the numerous tiny holes and puncture the pipe thus letting pressurized air escape from the gun while the gun was not being used.

The modern Russian "Kobra" uses the same rubber pipe over a vented inner barrel principle, but has a simple forward latching system to hold the spear in the gun. A number of these "Kobra" hydropneumatic guns were sold on eBay, but I have never used one. With a front tied spear they are claimed to have a quiet shot, there being no rapidly moving piston striking a muzzle inside the gun, same as the RPS-3.
 
Any more info about the RPS-3 speargun?QUOTE]

I abandoned work on "RPS-3-L version" as I could never load such a long gun. I soon realized that spear plus gun would be beyond my reach! Idea to put the hand pump in the centre of the gun was the main reason for using two existing outer barrel tubes. As another, shorter length outer barrel or tank tube needs to be made it would be easier to make one the new longer length replacing the original with just one tank.
 
I too considered trying different tubing. Surprisingly the 20 or so year old tube which is rigid as tube gets is in mint condition still.
 
I have translated into English and slightly reformatted the text and diagrams in the 1978 "Спортсмен-Подводник" issue 51 article concerning the design and detail operation of the RPS-3 speargun in the attached Acrobat document, so now anyone with an interest can read it. The article explains everything in a very logical manner. Thanks to those who preserved these "Спортсмен-Подводник" magazines for future generations by converting them all to Acrobat pdf files.

Pete, have you some enlarged picture of: 15-sealing spear? What kind of sealing is that part? I suppose it is some special shape sealing.
 
Pete, have you some enlarged picture of: 15-sealing spear? What kind of sealing is that part? I suppose it is some special shape sealing.

This is what the original article says regarding the muzzle seal:


"Packing of the harpoon at muzzle consists of two Teflon rings, which provide the front support for the harpoon, and positioned between them a standard rubber packing ring of round cross section."

The production gun has a brass annular ring in front, followed by a square cross-section rubber ring of terrible quality and behind that a moulded plastic ring, all three rings being squeezed together when you tighten up the muzzle cap with the front tube extension that aligns the spear shaft for loading into the inner barrel. The rubber ring has a lot of mould flash both inside and out and has to either wear in or be smoothed internally with an abrasive grinding tube to make it fit properly and seal on the shaft. Each gun was supplied with about twenty spare rubber rings all as bad as each other.
 
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