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Hydro/pneumatic gun

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Re: Hydro/pneumatic gun: adjusting the trigger

One of the problems that users of the RPS-3 spearguns found when shooting their guns was that the line release would not always release, thus causing the shooting line to unexpectedly snap. The spear would then promptly disappear into the weeds on the bottom never to be found again, or the wounded fish swam away with the spear also resulting in its loss. This only happens if the trigger and line release operation are not properly synchronized and the adjustment is easy to do once you know how to do it.

The RPS-3 user handbook strongly advised gun owners not to make any changes to the adjusting screw in the face of the small internal boss that controls the sear release action, but that is exactly how you adjust the gun. The correct adjustment is obtained when the small diamond or lozenge shaped pivoting lever in the rear of the gun frees the line release lever before the boss pulls out of the rear of the sear disk, as the boss clearing the rear face of the sear disk causes the gun to shoot. Turning the adjusting screw anticlockwise effectively lengthens the screw and delays the sear release action, turning the screw clockwise shortens the screw and makes the sear release earlier when pulling the trigger. To get it right you need to use a "trial and error" approach, but it does not take very long to carry out.

A wetted spear (for muzzle seal lubrication) is loaded into the gun with the hand pump's removable Tee-handle replacing the speartip (it has the same screw thread, in fact the hand pump rod is a spare spear shaft), that way you have complete control over the gun and the spear when using both hands. No significant amount of water, beyond wetting it down first, is to be present in the inner barrel, as for this test we just use compression of the existing air in the inner barrel.

You grasp the gun's pistol grip handle with your thumb curled over the top of the rear of the gun and pressing firmly on the back of the line release finger sticking up vertically at the top rear of the gun. When you pull the trigger back slowly you will feel the line release lever suddenly move under the pressure of your thumb and only after this happens should the sear tooth release the spear, your hand on the Tee-handle will feel the spear being released due to the slight air pressure in the inner barrel created by your loading action weakly driving the spear forwards. If this does not happen and the sear releases first then the front adjusting screw has to be lengthened to delay the sear release action, so you unscrew the gun's rear handle section and turn the adjusting screw head in the now exposed boss (seen when looking in from the front of the detached rear handle section) half a turn anti-clockwise and then reassemble the gun to try it again. You repeat this procedure until you get it just right. If you overshoot the correct adjustment the line release will free too soon, but this is preferable to it being too late or coincident with the shot. To go back the other way you just progressively use half (or quarter) turns of the screw going clockwise which shortens the screw and causes the sear release action to happen sooner. It may sound complicated, but the mechanism will not be out by much, so not many turns of the adjusting screw are required. There is a similar rear screw that pushes directly on the diamond shaped lever, accessible from outside the gun once the black plastic grip handle is removed (undo the large "cheese head" nut with the pivoting metal attachment loop located in the handle butt), but you rarely need to adjust it as it is jammed by a twisted metal element built into the sliding rod it projects out of. You only need to adjust it if the safety device is not being pushed by the rear of the trigger hook when you fire the gun (this is mentioned further on), but any final adjustment must be done with the front screw, which the small internal boss actually slides on, until the screw's head catches it internally to pull the boss back.

When you have it set just right this is what happens. Pulling back on the trigger the line release finger frees, the back of the trigger hook causes the safety device to flip back to the horizontal "safe" position and only then the gun shoots. When you reload the gun the small internal boss moves forwards to trap the sideways displaced sear disk (a strong internal coil spring is pushing the boss which plugs the disk once it centralizes in the gun body, thus gripping the spear tail). This boss movement pulls on the trigger mechanism's long internal sliding rod via the front adjusting screw's shank, the front and rear adjusting screws both thread into this long sliding rod, to cause it to come forwards and that in turn drags the trigger hook forwards causing a short horizontal tab on the trigger's rear face to pull out from under a transverse metal strap on the gun's pivoting safety device. Once the rear tab on the trigger slips out from under this transverse metal strap the latter falls in directly behind the tab thus blocking the trigger from moving backwards. That is how the RPS-3 speargun automatically applies the safety each time you reload the gun, which is very ingenious. When you shoot the gun you cause the safety device to initially reset partially and actually cocking the gun later completes the movement to the full "safe" position. A brilliant piece of engineering, but bought at the cost of tiny wire loop leg type springs and a number of small pivot pins (their diameter is only 2 mm!) and an elaborately machined (turned, multi-axis milled and multi-bored) rear alloy housing to contain it all. To unblock the safety you push with your trigger finger on the downward curved metal tab in front of the trigger hook that looks like a second trigger and that causes the safety device, which the downward curved tab is actually connected to, in the form of a pivoting bar to swing downwards at its rear end to clear the trigger for shooting. The safety device pivoting bar has two set positions governed by an "over the centre" action of its looped wire biasing springs situated on either side, it is either hanging down on a slight angle ("fire") or up and horizontal ("safe") at its rear end. The front of this bar (which is a stamped or folded metal "U" cross-section) pivots at its front end, just where the curved actuating tab which is integral with it descends directly in front of the trigger.

None of this layout was cheap to make and probably very time consuming to assemble, so how the manufacturer ever made any money on a gun that sold for only 55 rubles is hard to fathom, but one can understand the attraction of such a highly engineered weapon of very attractive, albeit diminutive, proportions. In a sense its rival is the "Taimen", both guns using vertical release action sear teeth (no sear pivot pins are used) and small diameter body tubes (30 mm), but one sinks and the other floats, which is also how their respective fortunes as spearfishing weapons has progressed. The simplicity of the "Taimen" trigger mechanism and its elimination of fiddly adjustments (that advantage is stated in the "Taimen" user handbook) is a direct reference to the RPS-3 speargun's trigger mechanism tribulations for owners who failed to understand how their guns worked and were too easily convinced by the handbook not to experiment. Having lost their spear they were out of action and if they never fixed the trigger adjustment then the spare spear, taken out of the hand pump, probably soon joined its comrade slowly rusting on the bottom.
 
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This is what the original article says regarding the muzzle seal:





"Packing of the harpoon at muzzle consists of two Teflon rings, which provide the front support for the harpoon, and positioned between them a standard rubber packing ring of round cross section."

The production gun has a brass annular ring in front, followed by a square cross-section rubber ring of terrible quality and behind that a moulded plastic ring, all three rings being squeezed together when you tighten up the muzzle cap with the front tube extension that aligns the spear shaft for loading into the inner barrel. The rubber ring has a lot of mould flash both inside and out and has to either wear in or be smoothed internally with an abrasive grinding tube to make it fit properly and seal on the shaft. Each gun was supplied with about twenty spare rubber rings all as bad as each other.


I would bet that there were originaly not round cross section rubber ring, especialy not rectangular shape, but obviously I was wrong! A guy on Croatian forum bought an old RPS-3 gun, without any sealing in a muzzle. He told me it was not possible to put there more than 2 mm cross section O-ring.
If it seals 9 mm, what hapen when 9.5 mm tail end come to go through? I suppose sealing would become broken very soon. I thought there might be something similar to STC sealing.
Thanks Pete!
 
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I sliced in half a damaged rubber muzzle ring and measured it at 3.2 mm x 2.3 mm (width x height of the rubber cross section). The 2.3 mm section height I assume is to allow some outward radial compression of the rubber ring in order to absorb the shaft diameter changing momentarily from 9.0 mm to 9.5 mm as the stop ring bump goes through the rubber seal, ideally not breaking the seal's pressure sealing action for any length of time as it does so. The system does work, but the rubber compound used and the quality of the molding of the rubber ring is not really up to the job for any sustained use.
 
I sliced in half a damaged rubber muzzle ring and measured it at 3.2 mm x 2.3 mm (width x height of the rubber cross section). The 2.3 mm section height I assume is to allow some outward radial compression of the rubber ring in order to absorb the shaft diameter changing momentarily from 9.0 mm to 9.5 mm as the stop ring bump goes through the rubber seal, ideally not breaking the seal's pressure sealing action for any length of time as it does so. The system does work, but the rubber compound used and the quality of the molding of the rubber ring is not really up to the job for any sustained use.

That is also a valuable information! Is there any free space between that "O-ring" and Teflon parts in "sandwich"? I suppose there should be some free space so the rubber ring could change its cross section shape during sealing action, while being compressed by 9 mm and 9.5 mm shafts OD.
 
Yes, there is some space around the rubber sealing ring as the brass ring sitting directly in front of it is beveled on the outer rear edge of the face that leans on the rubber ring while the brass ring's front face is completely flat. Also the plastic ring situated at the rear of the rubber ring has one flat face and beveled inner and outer edges on the other face. The first RPS-3 gun that I bought, which was damaged even though superficially it looked OK, had this plastic ring installed with the beveled edges to the rear and the flat face pushing against the rubber ring. On the second unused RPS-3 gun the brass ring was in the same way as it was in the first gun, i.e. bevel facing to the rear, but the plastic ring and rubber ring fell out together and so I don't know which way around the plastic ring was. It seems to work either way with the plastic ring, but I think that the brass ring is the one that counts as the plastic ring is not very thick in section and its shape may just be due to how the injection moulding die was made in order to enable the plastic ring to pull out of the hot die. The user handbook does not say anything about the rings other than you have 40 spare rubber rings and 10 spare plastic rings, plus one spare brass ring supplied with each gun. The number of rubber muzzle rings probably tells you something about their durability!
 
Here are some photos showing what lies inside the rear housing of the Ukrainian RPS-3 hydropneumatic speargun. This particular gun has a crack in the rear housing due to it being forced together with additional rubber packing in an attempt by a previous owner to improve the sealing action on the mid-section; it didn't!

I only bought this gun to dismantle it, so took to it with hammer and hardened steel punch to drive the staked in place mechanism pivot pins (2 mm dia.) out. They are not intended to be removed, so the inner mechanism parts are rarely seen by anyone outside the Ukrainian factory. The small steel parts shown here are very susceptible to rusting as the rear section completely floods, so they are exposed to saltwater during any ocean usage (galvanic corrosion will then occur between the different metals used which will progressively destroy any protective plating). The components used are not stainless steel unfortunately, which means that if the gun is not washed out with freshwater after a dive it will not last long once the various small springs start to disintegrate and the sliding steel parts pit with rust.

Some additional pictures from guy who fixed a RPS-3:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/strasilo/zrakaca/PA306269.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/strasilo/zrakaca/PA306259.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/strasilo/zrakaca/PA306257.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/strasilo/zrakaca/PA306271.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/strasilo/zrakaca/PA306260.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/strasilo/zrakaca/PA306266.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/strasilo/zrakaca/PA306267.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/strasilo/zrakaca/PA306268.jpg

[ame]http://youtu.be/RCanczgQ9kY[/ame]
 
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Here are the dimensions of the muzzle seal components for the RPS-3. The brass muzzle ring, which has a black oxidized finish, has a thickness of 3 mm (actually measures out at 2.9 mm) and an OD of 12.8 mm and an ID of 9.7 mm. The black plastic ring (Teflon?), which is the rear component of the three piece "seal sandwich", has a thickness of 1.8 mm and an OD of 12.5 mm and an ID of 9.0 mm (the shaft bump must squeeze through it as the bump is 9.5 mm in OD). The rubber sealing ring, which is difficult to measure properly due to the presence of heavy mold flash, is 3.8 mm (or 3.7 mm) in thickness when new with OD of 12.8 mm (my estimate "discounting" the external mold flash) and an ID of 8 mm (the inner mold flash makes it smaller than 8 mm, but the thin flash here is quickly distorted and tears, thus setting up further failure as that tear propagates over time into the main body of the rubber ring!!). A used example of the rubber ring, which still sealed OK, measured at a thickness of 3.5 mm and an OD of 13 mm with an ID of 9 mm, so it had conformed over time to the shape imposed by being squeezed up in the muzzle cavity and with the spear loaded in the gun. Note that the RPS-3 spearguns are stored with the spear loaded into the gun as without water in the inner barrel it is assumed to be "safe", but this is not true if the air reservoir slowly pressurizes the inner barrel due to a compressed air leak. Storing the spear in the gun is a recipe for rusting of the spear shaft (and everything else internally!) as any residual water trapped inside the inner barrel will attack the shaft whether it is the chrome plated version or the cadmium plated version of the shaft turning the shaft into a piece of scrap metal as without a highly smooth surface finish it will tear up the muzzle seal and the gun will no longer function.

The bore of the muzzle cavity that holds the "seal sandwich" is 13 mm ID and the depth of this cavity is 7.2 mm (or 7.3 mm), everything being squeezed up by the black painted muzzle cap which is a casting that has been machined inside to cut the internal attachment threads that screw onto the threaded nose of the front bulkhead which contains the muzzle cavity. Everything is well made, but let down by the very bad rubber seals.

If you add the thickness of the three rings together then you have (brass) 2.9 + (rubber) 3.7 + (plastic) 1.8 = 8.4 mm. When the rubber seal consolidates over time to 3.5 mm instead of the original 3.7 mm, then the combined length of the "seal sandwich" is 8.2 mm, but as the muzzle cavity is 7.2 mm deep then the stack of rings protrudes about 1 mm clear of the cavity to ensure that the muzzle cap gives it a squeeze when the cap is tightened to its limit which is determined by its ribbed outer flange contacting the shoulder of the front bulkhead.
 
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I have found the original rubber seal that was fitted in the unused gun. I had changed it as during experiments pieces fractured out of it rendering it likely to no longer hold pressure. This happened alarmingly quickly despite wetting the seal before loading the gun each time. I have now checked the rear face of this rubber seal which was still intact, all the pieces broke from the front face starting from the leading inner edge of the seal, so this allowed me to check the back for marks. At mid-thickness there is a slight circular impression concentric with the ring periphery and this is also present on the rubber ring from the other gun. The flat face of all of the plastic rings has such a circular mark, it is a very slight step recessed into the centre of each plastic ring, so this indicates that the plastic ring goes into the muzzle cavity with its beveled face pointing towards the rear of the cavity and with the flat face leaning against the rubber ring which creates the circular impression found in the rear of the rubber ring. These circular marks will take some time to form, so I think this is the correct way for the rings to be installed. Now you know everything!
 
Peter thanks again! This was very useful indeed! The most intersting fact to me was that the teflon ring ID is 9 mm? I suppose that is for keeping the shaft in center as much at it is possible, during loading and shooting. During loading to prevent losing pressure - escaping water from the gun. During shooting to prevent demage to the O-ring, if the shaft would not be well centered.
 
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Peter thanks again! This was very useful indeed! The most intersting fact to me was that the teflon ring ID is 9 mm? I suppose that is for keeping the shaft in center as much at it is possible, during loading and shooting. During loading to prevent losing pressure - escaping water from the gun. During shooting to prevent demage to the O-ring, if the shaft would not be well centered.

I am not sure of the plastic ring being Teflon, it may be polypropylene. The plastic ring from the used gun had a scuffed inner edge from the spear tail bump passing through it and the diameter has increased slightly above 9 mm. The plastic ring has a small OD allowing it to float in the cavity, but the slight annular step in the centre allows it to index on the rear of the rubber ring, I think that is why that feature is there. These small details must be there for a reason. If the inner bore through the rubber rings was smoother then they would not be so prone to tearing, plus the rubber compound has a carroty propensity to chip.
 
2164962790316b_l.jpg


Took the gun apart, cleaned and inspeted it. Also took all the nesecary mesurements to buy all new O-rings for it.
 
Your RPS-3 speargun looks in good order, the trigger mechanism in the rear housing is not rusty compared with some that I have seen, such as the rear mechanism in my older RPS-3 gun! The green anodizing on the guns is rather thin, in fact when handling my unused gun a lot of the green dye came away on my hands so that where I had gripped it most frequently (in attempting to unscrew it) the gun lost the bright emerald look of the original surface.

For your interest here is some information posted by Skarabey on one of the Russian forums concerning the various seals in the RPS-3 gun. He fully dismantled a gun, but I only found his post after I had pulled mine apart. As translated by the Google auto translation.

1. Front / rear seal receiver - Cup round, 27.5 x 24, two pieces. Note: in the standard version of the cuff is a square 3 mm. In the groove under it faces two perfectly circular cuff 27.5 x 24. Deterioration in the quality of sealing is not marked.
2. Front / rear inner barrel to bulkhead seal - Cuff square, 17 x12, H - 2 mm, two pieces. Or a segment of rubber or silicone tube 17 x 12, H - 4 mm.
3. Air inlet valve - Rubber band width of 8 mm, thickness 2 -: - 2,5 mm. Length of the strip about 60 mm, is chosen by experience during installation. Or a segment of rubber or silicone tube width of 7 mm, 2 mm thick. The outer diameter of 20 -: - 22 mm - selected empirically during installation.
4. Seal air bleed screw - Cuff square 10 x 3.5, N - 3 mm, one piece.
5. Seal - valve unit/ Arm - Cuff round 27 x 22, one piece.
6. Seal the adjusting screw PFP - Cuff square 7.5 x 3.5 mm, H - 2 mm, one piece.

"O" rings are better if they fit, but the muzzle cavity needs more than an "O" ring and Hanter told me they use a vee cross-section seal in that location. If fact they use vee cross-section seals to replace many of the original body seals in the gun, the open ends of the vee face the pressure which forces the flared ends out against the inner and outer surfaces to be sealed. I don't know the correct names for these seals, so I am just calling them vee-section seals here.

The front adjustment screw that holds the sliding boss that plugs the sear disk is hollow and has a bleed hole at the rear that can slide through the rear rubber seal in the rear housing to bleed water under pressure from the charged to shoot gun, so you can lower the power of the shot, or discharge the gun completely without pulling the trigger, or during muzzle loading of the gun bypass some water through the hollow screw before completing the loading action on the spear to charge the gun up to a lower power level. Pushing the trigger forwards in the gun activates this water bleed facility, or "choke" as they call it in the user handbook, but the tiny bleed holes (there are actually two of them as they drilled transversely through the hollow screw) will quickly nick an "O" ring installed in this position. The small bleed holes will also cause progressive deterioration of the standard rubber packing ring, but it will last longer because the sealing action is spread over a wider rubber surface than the slim contact periphery of an "O" ring. Don't use the choke facility would be the best advice. During my experiments I used it a couple of times and then had to replace the rear rubber seal from the stock of spare seals because it had started to leak, so the seal did not like the bleed holes dragging across the contact face with the shank of the screw. Technically it is a bolt as the screw thread only goes part way up the length of the screw which seems to be made of brass, but is chrome plated, so it was easy for them to drill those tiny holes which they recommend you clear out by poking fuse wire through them.
 
Here is a diagram of the vee-section seal suggested by Hanter to use in the RPS-3 muzzle cavity.
 

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I have worked out why the RPS-3 speargun is less efficient than would be expected. In an earlier post I raised the issue of the water mass flow rate being reduced by the small diameter holes venting the inner barrel wall, but another factor is the tail of the spear shaft moving past the holes is what allows water to flow through them by vacating the space for the water to flow into. With the shaft body occupying the space directly beneath a given set of holes there is nowhere for water to flow through those holes to, so the water at that section of the rubber tube has to flow rearwards to access the holes behind them that are already uncovered. Thus more water can move into the inner barrel as more sets of holes are progressively uncovered and that means that the gun is throttled by the available openings until 80 holes are passed by the spear tail. This is because the equivalent area to the spear's cross-sectional area is 81 holes of 1 mm diameter each. In the longer barrel prototype gun the holes were drilled with rings of four holes at 8 mm intervals along the tubing, whereas the production short gun has six holes in each ring at the same linear spacing. By increasing the number of holes per ring more water can flow into the inner barrel earlier in the spear's travel out of the gun, but the crush strength of the inner barrel tube will be reduced if too many holes are drilled in a particular section, so the number and diameter of the holes is restricted. This flow impediment created by the spear shaft's presence is the reason why drilling the entire length of the inner barrel tube with small holes provides no significant advantage as the extra holes will do nothing until the spear tail passes them and that is only after 80 holes have been passed. To improve the performance of the RPS-3 gun the 80 holes have to be concentrated in the rear end of the inner barrel so that the equivalent area to the spear shaft cross-section is reached earlier in the spear's forward travel. A gun has been modified to have 2 mm diameter holes, which have four times the area of 1 mm diameter holes, the result being a much improved performance as only 20 holes have to be passed in the inner barrel. It is possible that narrow slots may be used to increase the cross-sectional area of holes in the rear of the inner barrel to improve water mass flow rate in that section without the rubber pipe puncturing on the larger holes, but drilling or cutting of such holes is time consuming and that is a factor which makes this collapsing rubber hose operation less attractive than say a sliding annular piston as used on an "Aquatech" speargun with the inner barrel bore always open at the rear end for water to flow into it.

So basically the spear shaft's movement creates a progressively opening hydraulic valve in the RPS-3 speargun and that slows the important initial acceleration of the shaft in the gun, hence its low efficiency.
 
Yes. I agree with you popgun pete! On this site http://aquatech1.narod.ru/eng19.html you can see that originally RPS-3 has only 38J of spear energy. When the inner barrel holes are drilled to 1,4mm, the gun has double the spear energy (79J).

Makeing narrow slots insted of round holes would be better, so that these narrow slots would'nt damage the rubber hose that much.
 
A pneumovacuum gun could utilize the RPS-3 speargun's nearly spherical cross-section profile tail stop, or tail bump, with a diameter only 0.5 mm greater than the diameter of the shaft, this stop being machined into the tail fitting followed by the usual taper for engaging the piston. This small spherical bump should go through the stationary muzzle seal without destroying it (the change in radius or step is only 0.25 mm), but only if the seal is properly designed and made of an appropriate material, something not achieved with the production RPS-3 gun as the seal fractured and tore too easily due to the poor rubber quality of the seal. A special line slide is then needed to avoid the line slide jamming on such a small spherical cross-section stop diameter, something which was designed for the RPS-3, but not actually used on the production speargun. The later limited production "Wasp" version of the gun appears to use the special line slide, but I have read no reports of its performance. A diagram is attached, the line slide being made of aluminium or a softer material to the steel spear tail so that it cannot hammer an edge into the spherical surface of the tail stop. Titanium is a possibility as it is tough rather than hard, however it depends on the titanium alloy being used.
 

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These diagrams show how the "RPS-3" trigger mechanism pulls the boss that releases the sear disk and automatically applies the safety mechanism when the shaft is relatched for the next shot.
 
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These diagrams show how the "RPS-3" trigger mechanism pulls the boss that releases the sear disk and automatically applies the safety mechanism when the shaft is relatched for the next shot.

Improved diagram to replace version now deleted.
 

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