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Hypercapnia or Hipoxia?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 90 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Also I was thinking of ancient humans on seashores, did they have to live next to freshwater rivers or not? I've read that although humans can't drink seawater, brackish water is much more tolerable, and since we produce metabolic water from food digestion (as above) and also that we sweat out salt and also our mucus is salty (that can be sneezed or blown out), the excess salts can at least be managed to a certain degree.
David,

Well, it is not really on-topic for this thread and has no relation to hypercapnia or hypoxia, so if you want to discuss it more, it may be better to move it to another thread, but for a quick info I am replying here: I remember seeing a document addressing the issue of drinking seawater. It is true that all survival manuals advice strongly against it, because the excess salt will dehydrate your body faster than if you do not drink anything. On the other hand, the document spoke about several unexplained cases of people lost at the sea who survived several weeks drinking seawater. Normally, it would kill you pretty fast, but these people survived it and it kept them alive. Unfortunately I am unable to find this information in Google (it is a couple of years I read it in some book), and hence I cannot provide more specific details, and am not sure if the source was reliable.

However, even without drinking seawater, it is not impossible to survive on the sea for prolonged periods of time. Sea fish contains 50%-80% of non-salty water, so by eating sufficient amounts of raw fish, or squeezing water from it, you can get sufficient intake. Alain Bombard addresses the issue in article. And the case of three lost Mexican fishermen who survived 9 months (!) lost in the Pacific Ocean, shows that it is indeed possible - they survived on raw fish and rain water.

Also, you do not really need to live close to a fresh water river - there are plenty of methods for collecting drink water even far from any fresh water river or lake. Just look at some survival manual, or ask some aborigines.
 
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Sorry, missed that bit. I think the chemical shift in the heamo- & myoglobin responses are better dealt with in some of the sub-aqua literature (looking at pearl divers in the 50s & 60s). I will look it up (I have a stack of papers on sub-aqua, diving kit, fins & monofins that is taller than me). From memory, there is little to show that there is any change in the quantity or biochemistry other than what would be expected from normal training. In most other sports the adage used is "train high, race low" (except that track sprinters & jumpers benefit from the lower air-resistance at altitude). The van der Waals forces involved in the attachment of O2 to the heame are quite complex.

The COX work at Hopkins (from memory again - sorry) only applies to a single celled organism mostly (a yeast, I think) and not to human cells unless the cells are directly stressed (not a natural condition - only inducible in the laboratory). It certainly didn't appear to happen in nerve cells, which require higher oxygen loads to cope with neurotransmitter and ion transfers. The neuron bunch at Royal Holloway, London, could probably answer that. Given that it is these cells that normally die under hypoxic stress (don't ask me why, I haven't done neuron physiology since 1992); COX4-2 might not be a solution to freediving. Stroke , acute respiratory shock and heart attack victims show the damage that hypoxic stress has on neurons. I guess that it is something to do with the level of ion gates. I will re-read the Hopkins stuff to see why mice were able to up the COX4-1:-2 ratios so successfully.

Blood oxygen loading and standard Oxygen/CO2 partial pressure work might give a better physiological pathway for developing the sport in any case. Perhaps all freedivers should go running at altitude for a month before they compete. Myoglobin loading or recruitment might be a better option. I will see what I can find.

All the best (will read every post next time),

Alaric
 
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Perhaps all freedivers should go running at altitude for a month before they compete.
Yes, one would tell it must help quite a lot. I already wondered about the effect of altitude training (or oxygen tent training) on freediving. However, there may be some disadvantages too, and I am not quite sure what the impact would be. I was also curious of the long-term impact on the organism and overall health at such artificial stimulation of hypoxia/altitude adaptation while living mostly in normal conditions. The issue was partially addresses in this thread: http://forums.deeperblue.net/specia...ant-answer.html?highlight=altitude#post636426

There was even a DB member from Nepal / Himalaya who signed here a few months ago, but unfortunately he made just a single post and did not come back to reply some questions I had. I'd be really curious about his performance, and whether he ever tried diving in low altitudes too.
 
David,

Well, it is not really on-topic for this thread and has no relation to hypercapnia or hypoxia,

Actually it does, but I didn't connect them at that time. I wasn't thinking at all about drinking straight seawater, which definitely does not belong in the stomach.

The water connection was the metabolic freshwater produced from eating shellfish and fish in addition to the free water in the fish. Rivers continuously pour out their freshwater into the sea, so the water further down-current (past the river mouth) is far more fresh than normal seawater, being brackish (in some areas about the same salinity as blood plasma) so thus drinkable without electrolyte imbalance. Too much salt and too little salt are both bad, and same with too much/little water. See this article on marathons, too much freshwater + not enough supplemental salt is dangerous:
Dr. Joan Bushwell's Chimpanzee Refuge : Marathon runners and Na, Na, Na <i>(part II of II)</i>

The body needs optimal O2 & CO2, but also needs the optimal amount of Na & Cl, I assume as much when swimming and diving as when walking or jogging along the beach especially in sunny warm tropical conditions. It has been suggested that a diver should be hydrated prepatory to a dive, it makes sense a diver should have the right balance of electrolytes as well, for better cellular and myo/hemo/neuro/cyto-globin operation, and this would affect hypercapnea and hypoxia capabilities.

Nothing at all to do with sailors stranded in the middle of the ocean, who may not even know how to swim.

I should note though, that some seas are very high in chemicals which cause other problems even when diluted to a brackish level, eg. Dead Sea is high in Magnesium which causes diarrhea.

DDeden
 
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Why diving marine mammals resist brain damage from low oxygen

Neuroglobin, Cytoglobin, O2 , brain, hypoxia in divers/swimmers/sprinters

Public release date: 18-Dec-2007
[ Print Article | E-mail Article | Close Window ]

Contact: Tim Stephens
stephens@ucsc.edu
831-459-2495
University of California - Santa Cruz
Why diving marine mammals resist brain damage from low oxygen

SANTA CRUZ, CA-- No human can survive longer than a few minutes underwater, and even a well-trained Olympic swimmer needs frequent gulps of air. Our brains need a constant supply of oxygen, particularly during exercise.

Contrast that with Weddell seals, animals that dive and hunt under the Antarctic sea ice. They hold their breath for as long as 90 minutes, and remain active and mentally alert the whole time. The seals aren't fazed at all by low levels of oxygen that would cause humans to black out. What's their secret"

Certain animals--including dolphins, whales and sea otters--appear to be protected by elevated levels of oxygen-carrying proteins in their brains, according to a study by researchers at the University of California, Santa Cruz, led by Terrie Williams, professor of ecology and evolutionary biology. The team measured and compared the amounts of these complex oxygen-carrying proteins--called globins--in the cerebral cortex of 16 different mammalian species. The results suggest that some species have evolved the capacity to protect their brains from conditions of low oxygen, also called hypoxia.

"What was remarkable was the level of variability we found," said Williams. "Some animals had three to 10 times more neuroprotecting type globins than others. These wild species may hold many clues about how to turn on protective mechanisms in the mammalian brain."

The discovery could have important implications for understanding stroke and aging in humans, according to Williams. It's not yet clear whether animals of a particular species are born with high amounts of brain globins, or whether their behavior and environment stimulate the production of globins. But in either case, the amounts appear to be malleable. That's promising, she said, because if globin production could be boosted in humans, then brain damage due to disease or aging could potentially be minimized.

"The mammalian brain appears to have a remarkable capacity for increasing neuroprotective globins--we're seeing that in a comparative way in animals," Williams explained. "Could we take advantage of that" Could we retrain the human brain to improve our own survival" We don't know yet, but it's certainly intriguing and worth investigating."

The study appears online December 18th in the Proceedings of The Royal Society B. Williams is lead author of the paper, entitled "Running, swimming and diving modifies neuroprotecting globins in the mammalian brain."

Scientists have long wondered why marine mammals are so tolerant of hypoxia. The conventional wisdom was that they had evolved physiological adaptations that increased the delivery of oxygen to the brain--for example, higher capillary density and blood flow that could be shunted preferentially to the brain. But despite such adaptations, blood oxygen levels still plummet after just a few minutes underwater, according to recent studies by Williams's group and others. How marine mammals could keep their vital organs alive on such low levels of oxygen remained a mystery.

Some unknown factor seemed to be involved, and Williams's attention recently turned to new types of globins that were discovered in 2000. Called neuroglobins and cytoglobins, these oxygen-carrying proteins reside in the brain tissue. That distinguishes them from hemoglobin, a similar iron-containing protein complex that carries oxygen in the blood and circulates throughout the body. Another molecular relative, myoglobin, facilitates oxygen delivery only in muscle tissue.

Scientists are still investigating the physical chemistry of these brain globins. So far, the evidence suggests that cytoglobins could play a role in efficiently moving oxygen out of the blood and into the brain, even when oxygen levels are extremely low, Williams said. The brain's neuroglobins, on the other hand, appear to be able to grab reactive oxygen and prevent the formation of destructive free radicals. Together, she said, these two resident neuroglobins could help keep the brain functioning and well-protected against damage during hypoxia.

To test this hypothesis, Williams brought together a team that included molecular biologists, biochemists, and wildlife veterinarians. The researchers wanted to find out if the amounts and kinds of globins in the brain correlated with the physical activity patterns of various wild mammals. They collected brain tissue from 41 terrestrial mammals and 23 marine mammals representing 15 wild species and one laboratory species. These came from state animal control programs or were "found" animals that had died from roadkill, fisheries bycatch, or stranding.

For each brain sample, the team measured hemoglobin and resident neuroglobins--the neuroglobins and cytoglobins--in the cerebral cortex. In the laboratory of coauthor David Kliger, a professor of chemistry and biochemistry at UCSC, the researchers used a technique called spectrophotometry to identify and quantify the minute quantities of brain globins that were present at the time of the animal's death.

They found a striking difference in globin levels depending on whether the species was a terrestrial, swimming, or diving specialist, according to Williams. Compared to terrestrial mammals, marine species had higher amounts of hemoglobin--and their brain tissues were darker in color due to an abundance of iron.

But the study results weren't entirely as expected: the shallow-swimming and highly active dolphins, sea lions, and sea otters had higher amounts of resident neuroglobins than did the deep-diving whales. And then there was the bobcat. Unlike the dog-related species--foxes and coyotes--three bobcat individuals had surprisingly high amounts of resident brain globins.

"Maybe it's not just breath-holding that stimulates these globins, but high levels of activity, such as sprinting," Williams said.

The research hasn't completely solved the mystery, but it's a first step, said Mary Zavanelli, a lecturer in molecular, cell, and developmental biology at UCSC. Zavanelli developed the laboratory techniques for measuring the amounts and kinds of globins in brain tissue by analyzing gene expression. In this way, she confirmed the species differences.

"There won't be a quick answer because this is complicated biology," said Zavanelli. "But the techniques are straightforward and simple, so it's just a matter of focusing on our questions. The big problem is getting enough brain tissue that's in good shape, especially from found wild animals."

As this research project continues, it might expand to include an investigation of whether high levels of brain globins are correlated with long lifespans in certain species. Bowhead whales have been known to live as long as 211 years, Williams noted. That makes her wonder how their brains are protected and whether whales ever suffer from strokes.

"These animals may have solved the aging brain problem," she noted. "Neuroglobins might give us some clues as to how."

###

Other UCSC researchers involved in the study included graduate student Lucas Cantin and staff researcher Robert Goldbeck in Kliger's lab; campus veterinarian David Casper; and undergraduate Michael Morledge in Zavanelli's lab. The study's coauthors also include Melissa Miller of the California Department of Fish and Game's Marine Wildlife Veterinary Care and Research Center, and Ann Pabst and William McLellan of the University of North Carolina, Wilmington.
 
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Williams suggests that the agile swimmers need to shuttle oxygen quickly to the brain and so they rely on the brain neuroglobins rather than the hemoglobin. The more hemoglobin in the blood, the more viscous the blood becomes, making transport to the brain slower.

Why diving marine mammals resist brain damage from low oxygen

Neuroglobin, Cytoglobin, O2 , brain, hypoxia in divers/swimmers/sprinters

Public release date: 18-Dec-2007
[ Print Article | E-mail Article | Close Window ]

Contact: Tim Stephens
stephens@ucsc.edu
831-459-2495
University of California - Santa Cruz
Why diving marine mammals resist brain damage from low oxygen

SANTA CRUZ, CA-- No human can survive longer than a few minutes underwater, and even a well-trained Olympic swimmer needs frequent gulps of air. Our brains need a constant supply of oxygen, particularly during exercise.

Contrast that with Weddell seals, animals that dive and hunt under the Antarctic sea ice. They hold their breath for as long as 90 minutes, and remain active and mentally alert the whole time. The seals aren't fazed at all by low levels of oxygen that would cause humans to black out. What's their secret"

Certain animals--including dolphins, whales and sea otters--appear to be protected by elevated levels of oxygen-carrying proteins in their brains, according to a study by researchers at the University of California, Santa Cruz, led by Terrie Williams, professor of ecology and evolutionary biology. The team measured and compared the amounts of these complex oxygen-carrying proteins--called globins--in the cerebral cortex of 16 different mammalian species. The results suggest that some species have evolved the capacity to protect their brains from conditions of low oxygen, also called hypoxia.

"What was remarkable was the level of variability we found," said Williams. "Some animals had three to 10 times more neuroprotecting type globins than others. These wild species may hold many clues about how to turn on protective mechanisms in the mammalian brain."

The discovery could have important implications for understanding stroke and aging in humans, according to Williams. It's not yet clear whether animals of a particular species are born with high amounts of brain globins, or whether their behavior and environment stimulate the production of globins. But in either case, the amounts appear to be malleable. That's promising, she said, because if globin production could be boosted in humans, then brain damage due to disease or aging could potentially be minimized.

"The mammalian brain appears to have a remarkable capacity for increasing neuroprotective globins--we're seeing that in a comparative way in animals," Williams explained. "Could we take advantage of that" Could we retrain the human brain to improve our own survival" We don't know yet, but it's certainly intriguing and worth investigating."

The study appears online December 18th in the Proceedings of The Royal Society B. Williams is lead author of the paper, entitled "Running, swimming and diving modifies neuroprotecting globins in the mammalian brain."

Scientists have long wondered why marine mammals are so tolerant of hypoxia. The conventional wisdom was that they had evolved physiological adaptations that increased the delivery of oxygen to the brain--for example, higher capillary density and blood flow that could be shunted preferentially to the brain. But despite such adaptations, blood oxygen levels still plummet after just a few minutes underwater, according to recent studies by Williams's group and others. How marine mammals could keep their vital organs alive on such low levels of oxygen remained a mystery.

Some unknown factor seemed to be involved, and Williams's attention recently turned to new types of globins that were discovered in 2000. Called neuroglobins and cytoglobins, these oxygen-carrying proteins reside in the brain tissue. That distinguishes them from hemoglobin, a similar iron-containing protein complex that carries oxygen in the blood and circulates throughout the body. Another molecular relative, myoglobin, facilitates oxygen delivery only in muscle tissue.

Scientists are still investigating the physical chemistry of these brain globins. So far, the evidence suggests that cytoglobins could play a role in efficiently moving oxygen out of the blood and into the brain, even when oxygen levels are extremely low, Williams said. The brain's neuroglobins, on the other hand, appear to be able to grab reactive oxygen and prevent the formation of destructive free radicals. Together, she said, these two resident neuroglobins could help keep the brain functioning and well-protected against damage during hypoxia.

To test this hypothesis, Williams brought together a team that included molecular biologists, biochemists, and wildlife veterinarians. The researchers wanted to find out if the amounts and kinds of globins in the brain correlated with the physical activity patterns of various wild mammals. They collected brain tissue from 41 terrestrial mammals and 23 marine mammals representing 15 wild species and one laboratory species. These came from state animal control programs or were "found" animals that had died from roadkill, fisheries bycatch, or stranding.

For each brain sample, the team measured hemoglobin and resident neuroglobins--the neuroglobins and cytoglobins--in the cerebral cortex. In the laboratory of coauthor David Kliger, a professor of chemistry and biochemistry at UCSC, the researchers used a technique called spectrophotometry to identify and quantify the minute quantities of brain globins that were present at the time of the animal's death.

They found a striking difference in globin levels depending on whether the species was a terrestrial, swimming, or diving specialist, according to Williams. Compared to terrestrial mammals, marine species had higher amounts of hemoglobin--and their brain tissues were darker in color due to an abundance of iron.

But the study results weren't entirely as expected: the shallow-swimming and highly active dolphins, sea lions, and sea otters had higher amounts of resident neuroglobins than did the deep-diving whales. And then there was the bobcat. Unlike the dog-related species--foxes and coyotes--three bobcat individuals had surprisingly high amounts of resident brain globins.

"Maybe it's not just breath-holding that stimulates these globins, but high levels of activity, such as sprinting," Williams said.

The research hasn't completely solved the mystery, but it's a first step, said Mary Zavanelli, a lecturer in molecular, cell, and developmental biology at UCSC. Zavanelli developed the laboratory techniques for measuring the amounts and kinds of globins in brain tissue by analyzing gene expression. In this way, she confirmed the species differences.

"There won't be a quick answer because this is complicated biology," said Zavanelli. "But the techniques are straightforward and simple, so it's just a matter of focusing on our questions. The big problem is getting enough brain tissue that's in good shape, especially from found wild animals."

As this research project continues, it might expand to include an investigation of whether high levels of brain globins are correlated with long lifespans in certain species. Bowhead whales have been known to live as long as 211 years, Williams noted. That makes her wonder how their brains are protected and whether whales ever suffer from strokes.

"These animals may have solved the aging brain problem," she noted. "Neuroglobins might give us some clues as to how."

###

Other UCSC researchers involved in the study included graduate student Lucas Cantin and staff researcher Robert Goldbeck in Kliger's lab; campus veterinarian David Casper; and undergraduate Michael Morledge in Zavanelli's lab. The study's coauthors also include Melissa Miller of the California Department of Fish and Game's Marine Wildlife Veterinary Care and Research Center, and Ann Pabst and William McLellan of the University of North Carolina, Wilmington.
 
Interesting. I wonder if the amount of globins can be increased at all with training, or whether it is predetermined.

The correlation of lifespan is interesting too. Humans have an unusually long lifespan compared with other mammals of our size, maybe evidence for the AAT? I don't know whether this is because of globins, metabolic rate or something else. Some fish species with a very high hypoxic tolerance (carp, crucian, goldfish, tench and others) have an unusually long lifespan too. The goldfish can live for 15-20 and up to 44 years, and the carp for at least 50 years, possibly over 100 in ideal conditions.
 
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Interesting. I wonder if the amount of globins can be increased at all with training, or whether it is predetermined.

I'd guess it can be increased (sprint/dive training, nutrition), but genetics very likely involved. I just read another article that many pro weight-lifters typically have a genetic advantage in fast twitch muscles that is less common in general populations. So folks with that particular genetic advantage will more likely be sprinters/lifters rather than long distance swimmers.

The question I would ask is, what is the cost/benefit of extra neuroglobin? Better stroke prevention but slower thinking?

extra myoglobin in muscles = longer dives but perhaps weaker or slower or heavier muscles or some other disadvantage.

extra hemoglobin in blood = better but slower oxygen transport?

The correlation of lifespan is interesting too. Humans have an unusually long lifespan compared with other mammals of our size, maybe evidence for the AAT? I don't know whether this is because of globins, metabolic rate or something else. Some fish species with a very high hypoxic tolerance (carp, crucian, goldfish, tench and others) have an unusually long lifespan too. The goldfish can live for 15-20 and up to 44 years, and the carp for at least 50 years, possibly over 100 in ideal conditions.

My guess, living at the shores did increase the lifespan from 20 years to 50 years, then the more recent combination of agriculture, trade, technology, larger population etc. allowed the extended life times (50 - 70) but the concentration of people increased socially transmitted diseases (plagues, TB, etc.), then when medicine and nutrition was improved max. lifespans increased (70-120 years).

Mammals in forests and savannas usually live up to 20 years, whales can live up to 200 years.
I think deep diving whales have more problems with nitrogen than oxygen and carbon dioxide.
 
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