Ibiza freediving GP re-loaded

[sebastien murat]

[/I]Here's the new poll configuration, to the question of whether the Ibiza Freediving Grand-Prix might prove too difficult without at least some ergonomic aids, such as for example, a mask, nose-plug, ballast, wetsuit, and reference-line.

Since no rules should ever set in concrete I thought that running a poll on the issue might be appropriate, the results of which would effectively establish the actual event rules. To vote it matters not whether you're actually going to participate in the comp.

The re-phrased polling question is:
What diving equipment s be allowed in the Ibiza Freediving GP? There are several pieces of equipment, including the 'none' option

To vote in a poll, simply select which option you want to vote for, and click the [Vote!] button. You may view the current results for a poll before you vote by clicking the 'View Results' link. Voting in a poll is entirely optional. You may vote for any of the available options, or cast no vote at all.
Generally, once you have voted in a poll, you will not be able to change your vote later, so place your vote carefully!

 

[sebastien murat]

My vote is in (undoubtedly not a popular choice).

Due to conflict of interest, I wont participate of course.

Seb

 

[trux]

What exactly is understood under "reference line"? Is it the same as the descent line or something else? If it is the same, how will you measure the depth without a line? What about the security without a line (and lanyards)? Isn't there a higher risk of losing a diver? Or will they be accompanied by security divers with fins all along their dives? In that case the security diver would be in fact a "visual help" too, and it would be probably better and safer having the descent line.

 

[sebastien murat]

With all due respect, I think it would help to read the event rules and FAQs, listed on our website, before jumping to conclusions. Though its possible that I may have overlooked some issues, I think it fairly thorough. That not being the case, I welcome your input.

In regards to the issues you raise.

- Depth will be measured by dive computer.

- Reference-line = guide-line, in this case. The guide-line is unmarked and purely there for orientation. In fact, if the people would have it and a guide line is decided upon, then we would actually drop two (2) lines, so as to prevent spiralling. There are several reasons why a reference line would be impractical, aside going against the essence of the competition: line violations, variable currents & boat-windage affecting the verticality of the line; divers expending energy trying to stay close to the reference line despite always potential water currents (mind you the dive site has been selected with minimal current; a tendency to override internal sensations and over-extend one's self.

- All divers are connected to the surface by means of a life-line. This custom designed line-line/spooling system, simply known as DRUMS, is the lanyard and ascent device in case of emergency (ascent speed ~ 2m/s).The line/spool offers next to no resistance. Indeed, in all of my years using this device, I've never noticed any; one would have to dive mighty deep and feed-out copious amounts of line to notice any resistance.

- The safety freediver is also tethered, on a seperate DRUMs unit, and can easily track the contestant by following the contestant's life-line, wherever they may be. The safety freediver does not have to 'hope' that the contestant will be at the required meeting depth, since the surface attendant maning the life-line knows exactly (within 2-3m) where the contestant is and when; DRUMS has a line-couter. Indeed the surface attendant provides continuous feedback to the awaiting safety freediver as to when descent should be initiated.

- Safety divers are also assisted by a small amount of ballast by means of a short drop-line/ballast set-up to permit effortless free-falling to depth. This is important from the point of view of minimizing the risk of DCS and permiting rapid recuperation, since they will be undertaking many dives with surface intervals of 5-6' and diving to depths as great as 30m, depending on the contestant's nominated depth. I think few divers will be diving in excess of 30m anyway.

Other issues:
To dive deep or shallow?
If you're thinking of diving to the minimum of 15m, you might also want to consider that the absolute error margin gets smaller the shallower you dive. For example, aiming for 15m and reaching 14m means disqualification. Reaching 16m, on the other hand, means that it can be quite difficult to be accurate within onely 1 meter, compared to say having a 2m tolerance if diving to 30m, say, or more if diving deeper. Breaking distance is longer in other words; there's essentially little difference in speed if having to stroke all the way to 15m to overcome + buoyancy compared to free-falling at depth. Also, there may be many divers diving to only 15m which makes for stiff competition and less chance of winning. On the other hand, it takes experience to know how deep you are if you're in the habit of diving very deep......something such a diver should be aware of anyway. I can recall, that doing 'no-limit' dives to over 100m and cruisng at speeds of up to 3m/s I knew within +/- 5m where I was when I pulled the plug. There are many signs depending on the strategy you employ, e.g., no. of equalizations, chest pressure, the physiological break-point, and your internal clock.


Seb

 

[Adrian]

Having seen that the safety procedures in Sebastians last post seem pretty comprehensive as regards a reference line, my feeling is that the whole philosophy of this Gran Prix - the purity of freediving - should be mantained. This is specifically what makes this competition different from the rest and should be respected.

Sure some divers will have better eyesight, or thermal adaptation, or the capacity to keep an independent vertical reference when descending, or sense of depth, etc., etc. than others, but this is the beauty of the whole thing. It's all about "you" - your strenghts and weaknesses and your capacity to dive as an unaided "original" integral whole. It's the ultimate self-critisizm or evaluation of one's capacities in freediving. It strips you down to your pure essentials and this comp is a unique opportunity to find out who you are in this sense. So why waste such a chance? There are plenty of comps around where aids are allowed and some indeed required.

I also don't think that this would appeal only to a few select die-hards, as I'm sure that many freedivers would enjoy challenging themselves in this new form of the sport and I can't imagine this not developing into a regular feature of the international freediving competition calendar.

Adrian

 

[sebastien murat]

I think there may be a way out of this, a compromise to suit all parties.
I'm thinking that for the minor prize (i.e., the deepest): no equipment allowed whatsoever, to keep with the spirit of purity. On the other hand, since most divers are unable/unwilling to dive like this, and it would be a sad shame, I think, that such an event would have to be cancelled due to insufficient numbers, so that perhaps rules falling more in line with those of AIDA might be appropriate for the major prize (nearest to nominated depth). This latter category should keep to this format to ensure that all have a fair chance of winning , not simply the 'guns', since the 'guns' make up such a small portion of the population.

Seb

 

[sebastien murat]

PS: By the way, love some of your photos Adrian. They capture, how shall I say, he essence.

Seb

 

[DeepThought]

I like the idea of no-line a lot. Like Adrian I think there's a place for this kind of competition as well.
But I think there are a few issues that indeed present a problem for some divers making it impossible for them to participate without specific training for weeks/months (not that people don't train for AIDA competitions).
For example, I know I can't dive vertically with my nose submerged in water for 15m, at some point I'll start getting water in my middle ear with each qualization. Maybe the first competition should be a little more lenient and modify the rules each year.

What are the expected water tempratures? cold tolerance is something one needs to develop. Not that I claim this competition should aspire to give everyone an equal chance but geographical orientation of divers can be critical in some cases.

Now for some clarifications, I assume equalization-aids= nose plug and not EqEx.
What about fluid/pipe goggles? are they allowed also under visual aids?

Since many poeple are asking about counter-ballasts nowdays, it might be quite beneficial for this community to get a good look at the DRUMS. What kind of power source does it need? (voltage/amperage, I think I remember it can also be opperated mannually).
I assume it is boat/platform mounted only? (no buoy solution)

Oh and btw, I'm not considering competing.

 

[jome]

Why is everyone going head first.

An experienced diver should have no problems going to 15m feet first, especially with no suit...All you need to do is exhale a little and drop, and you can keep your nose plugged while at it.

Or if you prefer head first, what is keeping you from pinching your nose? It is only a problem while going down and if you e-dive, you dont need to make any swimming motions on the way down...

One thing I will never wrap my head around is how could anyone feel justified to sue the organizer if they get and infection because letting water in their sinuses? Its not like it is mandatory to take part in the competition and even if one feels compelled to do so, it is not mandatory to allow water in your middle ear.

15m is not a huge depth, you could basically cannonball the dive

 

[turtle]

i say noseclip allowed and that's it.
interesting this idea that is coming into freediving more and more of 'purity' esp. vis recent popularity of unassisted CW. It sounds simpler but is also a case of refining the game and introducing more rules.

Very interested in taking part - any links to more details?

fred

 

[sebastien murat]

As I may have mentioned before (?) this is most likely to be a split comp, since as many of you have already expressed, publicaly or personally, that this is likely to be a BIG pill to swallow straight-up even for the elite! Nevertheless, the purist element, with minor modifications will be one category, the other most possibly (once we nut out a few issues) an AIDA regulated category, but tags are problem, since I'm trying to give everyone a fair chance at taking-out the prize-money, not simply the 'guns', and going to a visual target may prevent this. The question is finding a way to reconfigure prize allocation and make it more equitable. Certainly from a media point of view no gear is more personable and emotive.


The DRUMS is manual; electrics in a marine enviornment is notoriously unreliable.

Going to 15m may be easy for most, but remember that there is less scope for error since many are likely to opt for this strategy, out of necessity or choice.

The link about water temp is on the website, on the 'Dive Site' page

Please not that the rules will change shortly.

Seb

PS: Maybe they'll also sue for being a little cold.

 

[perow1]

Why is everyone going head first.

An experienced diver should have no problems going to 15m feet first, especially with no suit...All you need to do is exhale a little and drop, and you can keep your nose plugged while at it.

Excactly my thought. And it´s easier to calculate the depth on an empty lung (at least i think it is). Actually if I was to do a no fins dive with ordinary rules I would consider this strategy. Without fins my swimming technique is my limiting factor since i am almost physically unable to brest stroke, I am dolphinkicking even without fins.

Actually I would like to add that the point system is quite clever. The deeper athletes get a natural benefit to the more shallow, but it is not everything.

Even though I am one of those that hate water in my nose and my performance is very limited without fins I like the total purist idea.

 

[TheDude]

What about the measuring dive computers? Will the contestant be able to see his depth during the dive? Or will they have their screens covered?

 

[DeepThought]

Why is everyone going head first.

An experienced diver should have no problems going to 15m feet first, especially with no suit...All you need to do is exhale a little and drop, and you can keep your nose plugged while at it.

Or if you prefer head first, what is keeping you from pinching your nose? It is only a problem while going down and if you e-dive, you dont need to make any swimming motions on the way down...

With no suit and TLC I'm still a little positive at 15m last I checked. As for FRC, if breathing up horizontally I'm neutral at about 7-8m IIRC. To get there I will probably need to equalize atleast once per meter if not twice. Doing FRC breathing up vertically ("standing" in water) I doubt I can hit 15m, I don't dive often enough to have this kind of depth acclimatization.

But this competition is not about me being able to dive. I just thought these limitations might concern many others too. I used to dive "pure" when going to the sea almost every time, but the deeper I got the more chance was that I'll feel sharp pain due to water in my ears when I'm equalizing.

One thing I will never wrap my head around is how could anyone feel justified to sue the organizer if they get and infection because letting water in their sinuses? Its not like it is mandatory to take part in the competition and even if one feels compelled to do so, it is not mandatory to allow water in your middle ear.

Has such a thing ever happened?!? (I hope that wasn't implied from MY post)

19-20c at the surface, brrrr. I tried no-suit diving in 24c a few times during a 2 week period (I was mostly diving with a suit the rest of the time). Although the feeling of water on my skin was great it was too cold to enjoy it properly, shivering came in a matter of minutes.

 

[sebastien murat]

If they could read the dive computer, then you'd get where you wanted pretty much every time, which would mean that unless your in the top 3 or so in the world and male, you'd have essentially no chance of winning, which, would make the whole format essentially farcical. The format I'm proposing is really the rest of the world against the 'all stars'.

There are several 'tricks' to overcome the cold, either at the surface or at depth. One must not forget also that water temperature is not everything, the relationship between air (on the face) & water temperature is more important. Warm-up routines are also relevant. In short, there's I think enough here to make winning not such a clear cut-affair.

Also, as I said, there is lkiely to be 2 comps in one, which means that you'll probably be allowed to have all the gear you want in one, but next to nothing in the other.

Seb

 

[jome]

Deepthought,

By the lawsuit thing I was referring to Sam's post. And not critisizing her, but just as a general comment that the "I spilled hot coffee on me, better sue McDonald's for making coffee hot" mentality is something I will never come to understand...But those people do exist.

Hmm, wonder if I could squeeze that in my budget. Just trying the DRUMS sounds interesting enough...

 

[Walid]

Hello everybody,

Is it possible to see the results of the previous Freediving GP competitions and to consult the participants marks?

Thanks,

 

[trux]

Sebastien, I wanted to propose that you post an invitation to your Freediving GP also to some Greek forums, because there is a long tradition of freediving close to your purist idea (going back to the ancient sponge diving), and they regularly compete in unassisted diving. Danaë Varveri did 40m "natural dive" in 1999 in Spetses during the BIOS festival (though I think there were some visual aids there - reference line, and I am not sure if she had a mask or not). However, I see you already posted on Greekdivers.com. Maybe you could send an invitation to the organizers of the BIOS festival and to AIDA Hellas.

You should definitely also post about the GP on French forums. Unfortunately your methods are not really well known yet in France, so some popularization would not be bad. Also the huge freediving base in France and the relative proximity to Ibiza could help you to get more competitors there. One of the most popular freediving forums is the Esprit Apnée, but there are also many others quite popular: A la chasse sous-marine, [ame="http://www.plongeur.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=70"]Plongeur.com[/ame], Apnea.fr, Apnée Sportive, ...

 

[sebastien murat]

thanks for the links trux

Seb

PS: Walid, te GP is a first

 

[efattah]

Where is the competition website and rules? I haven't seen a link anywhere. Seb should probably put the link in his DB signature.