Inhaler or exhaler

[trux]

I am the last person who would criticise alternative medicine, and you are certainly right about the big pharma industry. However, the effect of a big part of the alternative medicine is based on placebo and mental effects (and there is nothing wrong with it, of course). In some cases the alternative medication, or the methods used have scientific explanation, and a firm ground, but in many cases in fact it is not the "alternative" method that cures you, it is the psychosomatic effect of being cured (or the mental influence of the healer). It does not mean it does not work. It does. I know it from experience better than many others.

As long as such methods do not pretend to be science (as in this case), without real backing of their claims, I have absolutely nothing against them. As well I have nothing against magie or religion - they all work. The channels of perception of humans psychics, and the ability of the psychics to physically influence the body, and its self-healing are amazing, and scientifically not always well understood.

However, it does not give anyone the right to claim such ridiculity as this one - that all humans can be categorized in two different groups by simply calculating the position of the moon and sun in the moment of their birth. That told, I may be wrong, of course, but without seeing a bullet-proof, scientifically proven, and peer-reviewed study, and statistical data from independent sources, it is not science to me. It is magic, wizzardy, illusion, shamanism, or whatever you want to call it. It may work, as many other similar methods do, but most probably not because of what they claim it does.

 

[Waterenthusiast]

Thank you trux, exactly my point of view on this subject. Nowadays the word schientific and science is only used as an adjective to make ones point of view look more serious. It's like an approval: "Science says it works, so buy now!"
The problem is that scientific research "should" follow strict regulations/conventions and each detail of an experiment should be known to the viewer/reviewer before taking any decision on the value of the claimed theories.
But in one point i agree with Alixir, everyone, beeing a scientific researcher or not, should be open minded to new concepts and ideas as long as a healthy part of scepticism is maintained.

Happy new year to everyone :wave

Christophe

 

[miguel-van]

As for my own terlusollogie experience concerning freediving, the day I managed to swim 50m DYN for the first time was with a FRC dive.

I remember this one

 

[trux]

BTW, ALixir, one off-topic question for you (sorry for that) - you wrote you are from Immersion Profonde, so perhaps you could ask your colleagues who organize the ICARE Award to address some problems and questions that resurected in this thread: http://forums.deeperblue.com/general-freediving/84826-icare-trophies-2009-a.html

I tried emailing them, but got no answer. I guess you see them often personally, and it may be easier to bring theit attention to the mentioned thread and questions and problems discussed there.

 

[Alixir]

I remember this one

Hi Miguèl :wave

 

[Alixir]

BTW, ALixir, one off-topic question for you (sorry for that) - you wrote you are from Immersion Profonde, so perhaps you could ask your colleagues who organize the ICARE Award to address some problems and questions that resurected in this thread: http://forums.deeperblue.com/general-freediving/84826-icare-trophies-2009-a.html

I tried emailing them, but got no answer. I guess you see them often personally, and it may be easier to bring theit attention to the mentioned thread and questions and problems discussed there.

trux ~ Immersion Profonde have a new website with a forum. I see that you're partly based in Lyon so can speak French? We need new forum members. Why don't you join and start a thread about the Icare Awards directement sur place?

As for awards in general there's always so much controversy, - Oscars, Grammies, gastronomony, hotels etc... I also noticed the most recent Apneamania awards give the static to Guy Brew when the WR belongs to Stéphane Mifsud... :hmm

Anyway, as you rightly say this is definitely off-topic... Which type of breather did you say you were ?

 

[trux]

I also noticed the most recent Apneamania awards give the static to Guy Brew when the WR belongs to Stéphane Mifsud... :hmm

Anyway, as you rightly say this is definitely off-topic... Which type of breather did you say you were ?

Eintrinker! Sorry, for continuing the off-topic, but I cannot let the above statement uncommented - unlike ICARE awards that are popularity-based, Apnea Mania awards are objective and based on competition results. Mifsud's record was not done in a competition - it was done as a standalone WR. Same with Martin Stepanek's CWT record of 122m which is better than Herberts performance, but was not done in a competition.

 

[Alixir]

Eintrinker! Sorry, for continuing the off-topic, but I cannot let the above statement uncommented - unlike ICARE awards that are popularity-based, Apnea Mania awards are objective and based on competition results. Mifsud's record was not done in a competition - it was done as a standalone WR. Same with Martin Stepanek's CWT record of 122m which is better than Herberts performance, but was not done in a competition.

Oops! I stand corrected

trux, you're a stubborn customer (...Eintrinker!) I'm thinking beast with horns. Capricorn? Aries, maybe?

 

[trux]

Sorry, wrong guess. Gemini. However, astrology is just another nonsense, just like the terlusollogie. Of course, in terlusologie, the fact itself that you start caring about your breathing when you learn it, may bring you health improvements (regardless if the calculation is correct or wrong), so it looks like there may be some logic in it. However, there is certainly no relation to the position of the Moon and the Sun in the moment of the birth. It simply makes no sense, and has no logical explanation. How should it work? Through gravitation? A truck driving in the nearby street, big building, or a mountain in the proximity would have bigger gravitational effect than the position of the moon. And since gravitation penetrates matter, the objects on the sky have the same influence regardless if they are above you head, or below your feet - they just have different vector - that's exactly why we have tides. So your position on the globe or the time would not play a role, it would be rather the orientation of the mother (or the baby) during the birth.

But then again why, oh why, should it be just the moment of the birth that decides the breathing type (terlusollogie) or the character (astrology)? Wouldn't the position of heavenly bodies have much bigger importance at the moment of fertilization? The birthday is very often quite irregulate, so claiming that there is a relation between the two makes no sence, since even an hour plays a role in both these pseudo-sciences.

Or is it not the gravitation, but rather the light of the heavenly bodies that plays a role? Hmm, that does not sound plausible - birth in the open nature is rather rare in these days. Or some magic unknown rays that we do not know yet? Well, perhaps, but why they penetrate buildings, and not the mother's body, and why it is the exact moment, and the location of the birth that are so important in astrology and in terlusollogie? Makes no sense to me, and has no rational ground.

Well, you tell that people born in the same astrological sign have same characters. First of all it is complete BS, because if it was true, each day we'd see the birth of thousands and thousands of people with the same characters, which is far to the truth. But even if it were right, there is much simpler, more logical and rational explanation for that, than some magical position of planets - simply the chemical influence of nutrients consumed by the mother in the prenatal period (or likely even by both parents just before the fertilization act), and by baby in the early months. The composition of the nutrients changes with seasons, so it is likely it has influence on the development of the embryo. And of course, also the seasonal climatic changes, and even the seasonal changes of behavior and activity of the parents (and especially the mother) during the pregnancy, but also after the birth, will certainly influence the development of the child. So yes, statistically taken, it is not quite unlikely that you will find some similarities among people born in the same period, but the explanation is quite prosaic, and has nothing to do with gods, stars, planets, moon, magic, or anything else so mystic.

And yes, it is fine to use the planets, or whatever other tools you want to guess the character of the person, and sometime it can perhaps even work to some extent (because of the above mentioned seasonal influences), but please do not call it science. It is not.

 

[rxcnc2]

Ah, now it's clear to me what earthsunmoonology is all about. Well, have fun as long as you can... that is, until 21 Dec 2012 when of course the Earth will be obliterated.

 

[Alixir]

trux ~ I don't remember ever saying that either terlusollogie or astrology were "science" (although French astrologist Elizabeth Teissier was awarded a controversial PhD in social science from the Sorbonne last year - after which she was unsurprisingly victim of a witch hunt...)

As for the moment of conception versus actual birth, terlusollogie is to do with breathing - something which doesn't happen in the uterus.

Terlusollogie - as I understand it - has more to do with kineseology, and although the main breathing types are Inhalers and Exhalers, there's also the mixed category to which I belong. It's a bit more complicated than just separting the whole of mankind into two different breathing-types. Then again, there are two different sexes - an example of the basic duality of life on Earth. 50% male, 50% female through the whole animal kingdom. In actual fact, we're not really that diverse.

Terlusollogie opened my eyes (or lungs) concerning my approach to freediving. Excercising passive inhales then active exhales, or the opposite has made me more aware of what's going on during static tables, as well as during training. It's also a great test of how relaxed we become when breathing comfortably.

There's still plenty left in the Universe which has no rational explanation. You yourself mentionned psychics and their abilites. Even today, highly respected theologians reject Darwen's theory of evolution, and the inner workings of the human ear still remain a mystery despite years of biological research into the subject.

The important thing, imho, is to be open-minded. Live for the present (especially seeing as according to rxcnc2 the world will end in little under two years) and instead of dismissing "alternative science" as nonsense maybe it's better to just take it all with a pinch of salt - you never know who or what might be around the corner..

 

[trux]

trux ~ I don't remember ever saying that either terlusollogie or astrology were "science"

Well, you wrote already in your first post "According to a couple of German scientists, knowing whether or not we are active whilst exhaling or inhaling can help us gain greater insight into our bodily workings.". And their website is full of the word "science" and "scientific". So if you do not consider their speculations science, next time you should better leave the word "scientist" out. It necessarily invokes that you are selling it for science.

As for the moment of conception versus actual birth, terlusollogie is to do with breathing - something which doesn't happen in the uterus.

Perhaps, but it does not explain, why the position of the Moon and Sun, and not the orientation of the mother, should influence the first breath. And why the first breath should define your breathing type. And it also does not explain how does a baby cry with no air coming out of the lungs.

Terlusollogie opened my eyes (or lungs) concerning my approach to freediving. Excercising passive inhales then active exhales, or the opposite has made me more aware of what's going on during static tables, as well as during training.

I bet that you would do much bigger and faster progress if instead of terlusollogie, you studied a bit the freediving physiology, have read the DB forum, or took a good freediving course. I progressed from 25m to 139m DNF within short time, not thanks to terlusollogie, but thanks to Deeper Blue.

There's still plenty left in the Universe which has no rational explanation.

That's correct, but it is no reason for inventing children tales and presenting them as science.

Even today, highly respected theologians reject Darwen's theory of evolution

Sorry, but "highly respected theologian" (and especially one refusing the Darwin's theory) is an oxymoron in my eyes

The important thing, imho, is to be open-minded.

Here, I definitely agree. But trying to explain everything by the position of the planets is definitely not a sign of an open mind, rather the opposite - it is a refusal to search for the rational truth, but rather trying to fit the reality to own blind speculative hypothesis with no evidence whatever.

 

[Alixir]

Golly gosh! You reply makes me feel like I've done something wrong!

"Am I about to be spanked?" :-o

It's easy and unfair to take sentences out of context and make slating remarks.


Just my couple of last thoughts, after which *I give up*

• The terlusollogists are doctors so I guess they have a BSc - perhaps you're right in implying that I used the term scientist lightly, but technically, that's what they are.
  .
• There is no doubt in my mind that there is no air in the uterus and therefore the baby is not breathing. Oxygen is transferred from mum to foetus via the placenta.
  .
• The mother's orientation (north or south hemisphere) is a criteria in the calculation of breathing type.
  .
• My nearest apnea club is an hour's drive from home. I try to go twice a week. During my last stay in Egypt I trained with a Deeper Blue instructor. In just over three months I've managed PBs of 50m DYN, 50m DNF and 30m CWT.

I love freediving and I'm happy to share my experience of it, particulary on Deeper Blue. I also like to spark a bit of controversy so perhaps it's my own fault if I feel hurt by the tone of certain of your comments...

 

[trux]

Sorry, there was no intention to offend you, just an attempt to put some light on the information posted, and explanation why it cannot be taken seriously, and why it cannot be called science, which it apparently pretends to be.

BTW, when I spoke about the orientation, then from physical sense, the location on the globe has lesser importance on the strength and orientation of eventual gravitational field gradients, than the orientation of mother's body (south-north, east-west, horizontal, sitting, kneeing, etc), and that of the body of the infant (head first / legs first).

And I did not ask how the baby breathes in uterus without air, I asked how it cries without inhaling first.

 

[Alixir]

And I did not ask how the baby breathes in uterus without air, I asked how it cries without inhaling first.

My guess is the same principal applies during an empty-lung dive, that there's enough oxygen in the brain... And enough air in the baby's mouth to help vibrate the vocal chords. It really does happen!

 

[trux]

My guess is the same principal applies during an empty-lung dive, that there's enough oxygen in the brain... And enough air in the baby's mouth to help vibrate the vocal chords. It really does happen!

Where does the air come from without inhaling first?

 

[Alixir]

Where does the air come from without inhaling first?

Not much literature in English on the subject - I found this one link: CVI :: View topic - Terlusollogy: Breathing Polarity and Dynamics

 

[trux]

Not much literature in English on the subject - I found this one link: CVI :: View topic - Terlusollogy: Breathing Polarity and Dynamics

I found nothing there what would explain me how babies cry with empty lungs, and how comes until now, during thousands of years and many miliards of births, nobody noticed such remarkable feat (assuming it happens at about 50% of babies). You wrote:

The theory stems from the observation of babies being born. At birth, the baby will either breathe then cry, or - and this is where it gets interesting freedive-wise - the infant will cry fist, with empty lungs, before taking that initial breath.

If 50% of babies can cry with empty lungs (on inhale???), I'd expect it would be rather well known. And if all babies in one part on the day cry on inhale on the entire hemisphere, while all babies cry on exhale during another part of day, I doubt it would pass unnoticed until the appearance of the founder of this terlusollogie. Does the website show somewhere videos demonstrating the difference - a baby crying after an inhale compared with a baby crying with empty lungs? I would love to see it, so that I can imagine it better.

 

[Alixir]

As soon as the baby is born, the ambient air supply which fills the baby's buccal cavity and larynx is sufficient for the baby to cry. I understand where you're coming from in that in order to exhale first there must be air to exhale, but try emptying your lungs and making a sound: it's possible. At the same time, maybe there's a tiny inhale before the cry comes, and hence it's the cry which kicks the lungs into action... ?

According to this article a foetus practises crying even in the womb, with no air - obviously in this case the cry is soundless.

Institute of Child Development (ICD) - Growth After Birth

" The unborn baby can do a surprising number of things for one so tiny. It can suck its thumb, cough sneeze, yawn, and suffer hiccups. A baby can cry before birth. Usually the crying is soundless. In one case, however, a doctor injected an air bubble into the uterus for medical purposes. The bubble happened to cover the baby's face. The moment the fetus had air to inhale and exhale, the sound of a protesting wail could clearly be heard. "

​

 

[trux]

What I meant is that for crying you need to fill your lungs with air first. I'd like to know how Mr. Terlusollog distinusihes between passive and active inhale at these babies - the birth is a such violent event, that you cannot see the difference. So telling that 50% of babies cry with empty lungs is simply BS. And making some statistics, telling us that all babies on the entire hemisphere cry with empty lungs during one part of the day, while with full lungs on the other part, is pure nonsense, and apparently does not come from a scientist, but rather from a charlatan. Or perhaps not, but then he certainly can post hundreds of videos of newborn babies where we can clearly distinguish between the passive and active inhales too.