is head down harder?

[sodeds]

simos, dont get me wrong - im not thinking diffrent from you - head up is, no doubt, easier to equalize. and you points are dead-on. i only have a problem with the saying "air moves up" witch i heard before without any reasonable explanation. as you said at depth the ratio of pressure decrees. that reinforce the fact that nothing can push the air nowhere!

i think that what i want to understand is: is there a physical factor that come into play here or just the factors witch you noted that has to do with the unnatural pose of the body
the body can be trained and taught, physics can not!

 

[Simos]

There is a physical reason too I believe in that you are working against pressure. I don't have much time to explain my thoughts in much detail now but if you agree about the behaviour of compressible and non compressible objects in water that I wrote above and then model the body a bit more accurate you will see.

Think of the body as a structure with a big compressible compartment of air (lungs) and then mostly incompressible tubes (upper body sctructures). The air pressure within the closed system will be the same, and this will be the pressure of the depth the compressible structure is at (ie the lungs).

So when you are going down head first you need to actively create extra pressure with your body in order to equalise the pressure your ears are experiencing whereas if you are going feet first, all you need to do is open your e-tube opening and the air at higher pressure will move into your e-tube and equalise.

This effect is more important for shallower dives - I believe as you are going deeper and deeper and the pressure differential decreases then from this point of view the difference in ease of equalisation between heads up and down will be less. Of course when you go deep in practice many other things happen so all this is irrelevant to a degree anyway.

You can't change physics but there a few things you can do when trying to bring air from the lungs to the mouth while inverted - assuming you are relaxed, if you open the mouth while keeping your lips closed you will create more volume and hence negative pressure which will help air move down from the lungs. You can do this continuously like a pump to keep bringing air up as you descend..

 

[haughki]

This is a great thread. I had the same experience as Sodeds: in my first freediving class, the instructors said that head up is easier because "air rises" or something like that. Of course, that's not true or accurate.

Imagine a sturdy, spherical balloon full of air, 10m in diameter. Tie a line to one side of the balloon, and then a heavy weight (enough to fully submerge the balloon) to the line. Then slowly lower the whole thing into the water. I think that as the balloon started to enter the water, the increase in pressure on the part of the balloon entering the water would try to force the air in the balloon up into the part of the balloon which is not in the water. I think the balloon would deform upwards because of this pressure difference: it would start to look more like a pear than a sphere.

The difference in pressure between water and air is very great, so the effect should be obvious. But, I think the same effect would occur underwater. Once the balloon was fully submerged, there would be an ~1 Atmosphere difference between the top and bottom of the balloon. As the balloon dropped down through the water, the pressure difference between the bottom and top of the balloon would continue to exert a force on the air inside the balloon, a force which would try to push the air from the lower part of the balloon to the upper part, distorting the spherical balloon. Water is very dense; compared with air, pressure changes are much greater over a given distance; so that, even from the head to the lungs the pressure difference is significant. If 10m == 1 A pressure difference, then the difference between the head and lungs, say ~.5m, would be ~.05 A.

I agree with Simos that there are many other factors: physiological, psychological, all of that. But, I do think that the pressure difference between the head and lungs is a real and important factor, especially in shallower water when a diver has full lungs and can completely open the airway between the lungs and ears. Once everything gets compressed and you pass RV, you're only dealing with the air in your mouth and throat: you really _have_ to frenzel to equalize: everything is very different. I think head up is still easier, even at depth, but I would attribute this mostly to the myriad other factors that Simos mentions.

One other detail that seems interesting to me: even though relative pressure change is less and less as depth increases, the absolute change in pressure over a given distance remains constant. E.g., the change in pressure from 10m to 20m is the same as from 50m to 60m: 1 A change. So, I *think* the pressure gradient between head and lungs should stay essentially constant, regardless of depth (though lung compression would presumably make some difference). This might not affect actual equalization, but should make it easier to, say, reverse pack head up, an effect which I feel like I've noticed before.

Hawkeye Parker

 

[Phil C]

Guys,

I think that there is another factor here.

Back before I leant to Frenzel I was unable to equalise head down. Thinking I needed to work on my technique away from the water and all the other factors mentioned above I got a tilt table and started to experiment. What I found was that I could equalise ok until my head dropped below my feet, then I would suddenly block. Nothing to do with pressure, stress, and only indirectly due to head position. So I researched this problem and found that some people have (to paraphrase) more fleshy 'lips' at the entrance of the E tube. In my case it appears that as I invert they flop closed making equalisation with the valsalva manoeuvre impossible.

However - the good news - in my case learning to do the Frenzel solved the problem, I now have no problem equalising head down. The greater pressure (possibly accompanied with some associated movement of muscles around the E tube 'lips') resulting from the Frenzel overcomes any locking that occurs.

If you have problems equalising inverted I would suggest first finding out what method you are using to equalise, if you are not using the Frenzel, read Eric's excellent (if a little detailed) guide and find someone to teach you.

Phil C
Auckland Freediving Club

 

[Simos]

Hi Phil - I think what you are describing is very related (the anatomy of the e-tubes) but I think it's also related to the pressure difference, as opposed to just the orientation of your head. ie what comes into play is how deeper is your head from your lungs.

I won't be able to explain my reasoning very well but I think this pressure difference does not help you open your e-tubes when inverted (ie you have to almost work against it) whereas feet first the pressure helps you open your e-tubes).

From a 'pressure' point of view it also means I am guessing that head down is more 'unforgiving' in terms of missing an equalisation or equalising a bit late.

Something that I do vividly remember from when I couldn't equalise head down is that as soon as I would turn head down, I would feel like all the blood would accumulate in my neck and head and that everything was blocked. It's a bit like watching someone do a handstand and all the veins in their neck are full of blood etc (that's how I think I would have looked like). Now I don't feel this 'congestion' so I think it's largely due to relaxation.

Also as another related point - trying to force valsava when inverted only makes the above worse because of all the effort required...

 

[Simos]

(by the way Phil I found the same too ie that even out of the water it would be difficult to equalise head down so agree it's not just pressure but it does make things harder)

Probably more that half the people who try Freediving for the first time have some trouble equalising head down. A few weeks/dives later, you are usually left with a smaller number who are still facing the issue and after months you occasionally have the odd person that still faces issues and there might be something anatomical that is preventing them from equalising head down. It's definitely the rare exception than the rule to have a serious anatomical issue, most of the time the problem is relaxation and equalisation technique.

 

[sodeds]

ok - iv been to the pool today and tried something like simos exercise: dove down 2m head down, exhaled compliantly then turned head up and found that i have more to exhale that way...it is against my logic but air dose seem to "go up"

 

[Simos]

Seems like Archimedes had it right after all sodeds lol

If air didn't rise, the sea wouldn't be sitting under the atmosphere either ))

Just pulling your leg, in reality there are so many other things that complicate matters when it comes to EQ and it's not just as simple as archimedes' principle I think...

 

[haughki]

ok - iv been to the pool today and tried something like simos exercise: dove down 2m head down, exhaled compliantly then turned head up and found that i have more to exhale that way...it is against my logic but air dose seem to "go up"

Nice one, Sodeds: this is a great experiment! And, keep trusting your intuition: air is just air, and it has no innate tendency to move in any particular direction. When air is in an enclosed, elastic space, it reacts to pressure changes on that space, and pressure differences across that space. In this case, your lungs are the elastic space, and the pressure difference is pushing the air up.

You probably already get it... I'm just excited that you came up with a real world experiment which clearly demonstrates the effect. Thank you!

And, I like Phil C's point about e-tube anatomy (I especially like that he wrote "e-tube lips" ha!). No doubt there is a lot of weirdness in there, and those tubes seem to figure out all kinds of evil ways to confound us poor divers... Thank goodness for Herman Frenzel: raise a glass to him the next time you're at the pub!

 

[ThomasB]

(by the way Phil I found the same too ie that even out of the water it would be difficult to equalise head down so agree it's not just pressure but it does make things harder)

Probably more that half the people who try Freediving for the first time have some trouble equalising head down. A few weeks/dives later, you are usually left with a smaller number who are still facing the issue and after months you occasionally have the odd person that still faces issues and there might be something anatomical that is preventing them from equalising head down. It's definitely the rare exception than the rule to have a serious anatomical issue, most of the time the problem is relaxation and equalisation technique.

Hi Simos,
I'm the odd person you mentioned above and being what i am, i'm also really interested in this thread because it basically talks about the reason i quit training over a year ago. After doing first and second AA course and been training in the pool for the winter, when summer came, my frustration started. There was no way i could equalize head down. Simply no way. First possible reason was, obviously, relaxation: you are not relaxed Thomas, that's the reason. Ok then, instead of going out with 25 people and feeling the need to go deep, the pressure of other people watching me etc etc, me and my buddy went together to the lake just to work on equalization alone. I spent months learning all possible tecniques, from basic valsava to Frenzel Fattah, i read and learn all i can, from Federico Mana book on equalization to every possible bit of information on internet as Doc's Diving Medicine Home Page (thanks Azapa). Did them all, you name it i did it, been there done that etc etc i once had the almost brilliant idea of of putting all the information together into a small ironic pamphlet named "Lourdes'water Yala Neti" as i realized all i needed at that point was a miracle: even alone with my friend i could not equalize head down :-(

After the first failing session at the lake, we came back trying again and again (me and the very same friend, whom i won't mention but he's around here and i will never be able to thank enough for his help) and we did many other test. Two of the most succesful where the following:

- going down head up in the lake using the rope to pull myself down

- going down head up in the pool (5 meters) with almost emtpy lung, letting myself fall down slowly.

Both test were successful, I could easily get down to 20 meters in the lake with by the book equalization.
At that point i realized relaxation wasn't the issue and i did a very simple test: in the water, at surface i started equalization heads up and slowly do a somersault: as soon as i was getting close to horizontal equalization got harder and as i got into head down position i couldn't equalize anymore.
Ok then, there is clearly some kind of phisical issue there. Probably my soft palate closes as soon as i get to the heads down position.

So i had to do another test using "otovent" this time. The small inflatable ballon you can stick in your nose (which my cat loves to swallow for some amazing reasons :-( ). So i blow into one, put it up my nose with my head down. Open my mouth and see if air comes out or not (think about my gf looking at me during this troubled moment and you'll understand what i went through for love of freediving ) . Anyhow, it does work, almost everytime! Both nostrils, all positions (head down, horizontal and head up). Actually i even EQUALIZES BOTH hears simply putting the otovent in my nostril! To be honest, after all these months spent practicing almost every possible exercise, i can open my tubes voluntarily, for example on an airplane to equalize, while keeping my mouth completely close but still, as soon as i get into the shallowest pool, there's not much i can do heads down...
The latest test at least proves something: air goes easily from my nostril to my mouth and into my tube but not the other way around. So it was time for another test to see if the flow could go the other way around: otovent ballon in my mouth, full of air, let's see where the air go.
No where!!!!!!
It stays right in the ballon, i can even breath through my nose normally while still keeping the ballon in my mouth full!!!
This is it basically, somethings prevents me to open my soft palate when air is pushing it and this get's clearly worse when i'm trying to equalize head down.

Even if i quit training last year out of frustration i still enjoy the whole freediving experience and want to give it another shot (at the end, i'm not an easy quitter ). It was an amazing discover which changed my life (talking about quitting i quit smoking after 15 years of deep addiction, got into good shape with mtb and swimming, healty food etc etc). I really want to give it a try but i need to find out how to fix this damn issue before getting frustrated again. What do you guys think? Any more tips or hints comes to your mind? What do believe my issue is related to? I'm planning to go to one of the best doctor with great experience in apnea and freediving but i won't be able to do that until october since i'm leaving italy for a short term assigment to the land of smile (with some island traveling at the end off course )
In the meantime i would like to give a shot to any other exercise or test you can think of guys, any help appreciated!

Thomas

 

[dimitris33]

Nice post Thomas and I can fully understand your frustration as I am almost in the same boat for some...about 20 years and I am still trying to solve my equalization problems cause of chronic rhinitis.

I have tried almost anything too, bought all books available, train, yoga, jala/sutra neti, I can do hands free and keep my tubes open as long as I like, I have full control of soft palate and epiglotis indepedently BUT on the reverse position I have equalization problem (frontal sinus squeeze and reverse blocks) in 99% of my dives even with medication...

I have recently managed to hit about -14m (head down position) but -12 is for sure. What I've found on me is that mask plays significant role. Whenever I have tried to dive with a mask I was unable to equalize my frontal sinuses. I tried a sphera with a little swimming noseclip modified to be tight enough but blowing harder could equalize mask. No success again.

I tried Cressi Galileo goggles and a trygons noseclip. This way is by far better and seems to be working much better on equalization issues but you cannot go deeper than about -12m cause you cannot equalize the goggles.

I have observed that taking a big mouthfill from the surface, lock it by closing the epiglotis and doing frenzels while going down works SURPRISELY and made me happy!

I had to find a way to equalize the goggles now..so I took an aqua sphere Seal mask (its actually a sphera with no nose pocket) and transformed it to pipe mask. I have managed to do some good dives with it around -14 but it is now harded to keep a mouthfill because most of the air goes to the goggles now however this one is the set up I must work on as I found that after many years of pain in the sinus and ears this looks to be working better than anything.

Thomas, you should try taking a big mouthfill from the surface (makes HUGE difference as the first 10 meters are the hardest) and try different mask/goggles/noseclip set ups to find what u feel more comfortable.

Taking a big mouthfill and having your lungs full actually you have two rooms of air with a middle door (the epiglotis) which you have to keep close. It is easier to do frenzel with the available air in the small room (mouth and sinuses) in the inverted position rather than to bring air from the big room (the lungs) upto your sinuses and tubes.

When you feel that your mouthfill is not full anymore then bring some air up again and lock the door!

My patience is timeless just because I deeply love the sport so I can be patient enough until I find the way to abyss.

 

[ThomasB]

Nice post Thomas and I can fully understand your frustration as I am almost in the same boat for some...about 20 years and I am still trying to solve my equalization problems cause of chronic rhinitis.

I have tried almost anything too, bought all books available, train, yoga, jala/sutra neti, I can do hands free and keep my tubes open as long as I like, I have full control of soft palate and epiglotis indepedently BUT on the reverse position I have equalization problem (frontal sinus squeeze and reverse blocks) in 99% of my dives even with medication...

I have recently managed to hit about -14m (head down position) but -12 is for sure. What I've found on me is that mask plays significant role. Whenever I have tried to dive with a mask I was unable to equalize my frontal sinuses. I tried a sphera with a little swimming noseclip modified to be tight enough but blowing harder could equalize mask. No success again.

I tried Cressi Galileo goggles and a trygons noseclip. This way is by far better and seems to be working much better on equalization issues but you cannot go deeper than about -12m cause you cannot equalize the goggles.

I have observed that taking a big mouthfill from the surface, lock it by closing the epiglotis and doing frenzels while going down works SURPRISELY and made me happy!

I had to find a way to equalize the goggles now..so I took an aqua sphere Seal mask (its actually a sphera with no nose pocket) and transformed it to pipe mask. I have managed to do some good dives with it around -14 but it is now harded to keep a mouthfill because most of the air goes to the goggles now however this one is the set up I must work on as I found that after many years of pain in the sinus and ears this looks to be working better than anything.

I can see i'm not the only one trying here

Thomas, you should try taking a big mouthfill from the surface (makes HUGE difference as the first 10 meters are the hardest) and try different mask/goggles/noseclip set ups to find what u feel more comfortable.

Taking a big mouthfill and having your lungs full actually you have two rooms of air with a middle door (the epiglotis) which you have to keep close. It is easier to do frenzel with the available air in the small room (mouth and sinuses) in the inverted position rather than to bring air from the big room (the lungs) upto your sinuses and tubes.

When you feel that your mouthfill is not full anymore then bring some air up again and lock the door!

I'll give it a shot tomorrow hopefully and let you know, thanks.

My patience is timeless just because I deeply love the sport so I can be patient enough until I find the way to abyss.

This should be your signature, it's pure freediving poetry to me.

 

[dimitris33]

Yes Thomas, big mouthfill from the surface is a nice ticket to gain some meters and pipe mask is a little complicated set up but I think it helps a lot (on relaxation, on hands free equalization, no pressure on face, no need to blow mask, you feel no pressure on your face, and better dive response as you have less silicon on your face!).

My personal view is that mouthfill is very usefull for all depths! Deep for deep divers and swallow for those having equalization problems helping them to overcome and dive deeper.

 

[Simos]

Hi Thomas

A few initial thoughts:

1. From the balloon experiment you mentioned, it sounds like you just haven't decoupled the epiglottis from your soft palate (you don't need to by the way unless you are using mouthfill). I am assuming you can exhale normally through the nose so if you can, I don't see how it can be a soft palate problem.

2. There are many things to try but I would start with tubular aerobics - you seem to be able to open your e-tubes voluntarily out of the water which is great. Just need to repeat opening them continuously for 5-10 mins every day (even better just do it at every opportunity you get). Try pushing your jaw 'forward' when doing it - you should be hearing some clicking sounds from both ears. I had to do this for months to strengthen the right muscles so don't give up..

3. I had problems with head down EQ for a long time too. What helped me apart from learning to be relaxed and keep the right head position was to start diving at an angle. Forget about rope work for a while and start by descending at a less steep angle at which you can equalise at, even if it's 20 degrees or less. Gradually as you master each angle you can try and a bit steeper. You'll probably need to raise your head a bit slightly at first but in time you'll notice you won't need to do it...

Maybe try #3 above and see if it works first..

 

[ThomasB]

3. I had problems with head down EQ for a long time too. What helped me apart from learning to be relaxed and keep the right head position was to start diving at an angle. Forget about rope work for a while and start by descending at a less steep angle at which you can equalise at, even if it's 20 degrees or less. Gradually as you master each angle you can try and a bit steeper. You'll probably need to raise your head a bit slightly at first but in time you'll notice you won't need to do it...

Maybe try #3 above and see if it works first..

This sounds pretty usefull. Will give it a shot soon.
Thanks for helping.

 

[Simos]

Something else that might help - go to a pool and just wearing goggles keep putting your head under water and exhaling fully through your nose. Try to get a nice even uninterrupted flow (might take a bit of practice if you are not used to it)

After you master the above, try the same at different head positions eg looking up, head down etc.

Once you are comfortable with that, try putting on the mask (make sure you have the strap tight) and then when equalising, instead of pinching your nose just exhale air into the mask. See if that helps you equalise...

 

[timm]

Hey Thomas,

One of the coolest divers I have met is a french chap (the french seem to have coolness down!) who only dives FI feet first and bloody deep, I think this is due to head up Eq challenges.

Worth a try, I was playing with feet first FI a month ago and its sweet, pulling down feet first is fine after a few tries, then you hit the glide and its a beautiful way to drop, once you turn its all the same!

Tim

 

[ThomasB]

Something else that might help - go to a pool and just wearing goggles keep putting your head under water and exhaling fully through your nose. Try to get a nice even uninterrupted flow (might take a bit of practice if you are not used to it)

After you master the above, try the same at different head positions eg looking up, head down etc.

Once you are comfortable with that, try putting on the mask (make sure you have the strap tight) and then when equalising, instead of pinching your nose just exhale air into the mask. See if that helps you equalise...

Hi Simos, been swimming all my life, quite used to exale from my nose.
Writing down all these hints, i'm going to have a pool available at the hotel in two days when i get there, and i'm planning to spend time there trying all these new stuff.

 

[ThomasB]

Hey Thomas,

One of the coolest divers I have met is a french chap (the french seem to have coolness down!) who only dives FI feet first and bloody deep, I think this is due to head up Eq challenges.

Worth a try, I was playing with feet first FI a month ago and its sweet, pulling down feet first is fine after a few tries, then you hit the glide and its a beautiful way to drop, once you turn its all the same!

Tim

Hi Tim, i'm sure i replied to you but cannot find it anyhow i do agree with you, even if i went only to 20 meters head up it was the best freediving experience i had, perfectly relaxed due to the easy equalization and i still consider that my best dive so far. The thing is i would love to feel the same doing cw or even better cnf, so i'm definetely back on trying to fix my issue and see what i can do. Anyhow, i understand the message and i agree with you, freediving is definetely personal and worth doing the way you feel/can better. I'm sure the cool french guy has the time of his life when going down feet first.

 

[Simos]

Well you should ask Herbert - he went to 214m feet down (on a sled).

And from the photos of his new sled for his 1000ft dive, it's again a head up sled. I think the reason is that as equalisation is easier head up, this enables faster descent speeds.

This might sound obvious but I'm mentioning in relation to the earlier discussion - Herbert uses the EQEX to equalise, therefore his lungs are out of the equation so it's still easier to equalise head up with the epiglottis shut...