is "never freedive alone!(!!)" safe?

[honestguy]

long story short, this guy wakes up with a brilliant idea: never freedive alone sucks big time, always freedive with a buddy is way better.
Problem solved, 9 pages later tho...

 

[baiyoke]

Hi.

It's pretty late now, and because I have a tendency to get sucked into these kinds of discussions, I will try to do it short for now

Too me this thread has value, but I must admit that Esom is not making it an easy discussion. Sometimes very academic and difficult to digest. Nonetheless it has showed me something. I see know that the "thread subject" branches into different sub-catagories like "wording" of advice/slogans, how to deal with people who are hard to reach, how to avoid fatalities above all, and perhaps guideliness for people who insists doing solo-dives... to mention just a few.

I would like to get practical: It really scared me when someone linked to a thread about a guy who knew all the dangers, posted on deeperblue, got the advice and... died 5 weeks later. Damn. What's behind that??? And there are many stories similar to that... I think FOR ME this is what this thread is about at the moment: WHAT IS DRIVING PEOPLE TO DIE, DESPITE GOOD SOLID ADVISE ALONG NDA, AND HOW CAN WE PREVENT IT???

That link and that story proves to me that, allthough difficult to understand at times, Esom has a point. The dead guy DID get the advice, did understand it, but did end up as a statistic. I can see know, that there's something inherrent dangerous about freediving, that is not easely adressed by rules or slogans.
The best way to describe it, is by copying to my reply in a new thread about a beginner + hyperventilation + "aloneness":

I do honestly not know exactly what to write or comment on your thread jago25_98, but I will however respond and make things up along the way.... because it's important to you, your family, to me, and the freediving community, that you get an answer, when you write about such dangerous things: Holding your breath is not in itself dangerous. Staying underwater in itself is not. But there's something that is really, really, really dangerous. It's a cocktail. Some people have had it and survived, some didn't. It consists of the following:
- Discovering FREEDIVING, wich is GREAT (good for you, so congrats...
- Not knowing what's going on in the body and mind doing breathhold.
- not realising the potential danger because it seems so peaceful, good, beautiful... and so easy to do, on the couch, in bed, walking or... in a bathtub.
- a strong urge to freedive (great, but needs to be
- the lack of a school, buddy or training partners...
- The frustrating thoughts and feelings of finding something as GREAT as freediving...but not (presumably) being able to really get to do it....
- The dilemma that places you in... "should I do it alone?".

I am not an experienced freediver or anything, but my short time in freediving has allready learnt me, that there are some inherent forces at work here, and they are STRONG... Some relates to the feeling we get from playing with freediving/apnea... perhaps there's a big physical and mental reward for us, since we do something like that, despite the strong urge to breath. Perhaps people that discover freediving NEED freediving... Also it can be difficult to see what's up and down in this strange sport where people stop breathing... What is dangerous and what's not... And third sometimes people likes to stare death in the eyes, saying stuff like.. "to hell with it, I'm doing this, becuse I want to..."...

I don't know if the above is understandable, or if you can relate to it or not, but I wanted to write that before I write the following:

I strongle advice you to learn more about freediving, and change the way you are currently thinking and acting. You can channel your energy to other ways of learning and practising freediving.

There have been many people writing almost exactly what you are writing and thinking (yes believe or not, but very much the same). It is very often about training alone + hyperventilating, but not realising it.

There has been debate on what to write back to people, who is in your situation. I will try a more positive direction for now:

You have discoverd a great, great thing: Freediving. It will perhaps draw your attention like almost no other sport has done before. It can be lifechanging, and it's a really, really good thing. But just like other things in life, you/we need to learn and be respectfull, because we cannot master things immediately... Try to channel your energy into positive things about this sport. Don't get too preoccupied witj the frustration, if you cannot just freedive antime you want. This is not jogging or walking in the park Respect that, and respect yourself enough to make that choice Try to find others with whom you can share this. Take a course. Make you next holiday be a freedive holiday, next weekend visit someone somewhere etc. etc. Don't let the limitations drive you to do dangerous stuff, instead seek possibilities, and learn along the way....

I wish you good luck discovering this great world of freediving...

I will remember this thread and my post, and next time I see a similar thread, I will copy-paste it to the next person. And these thoughts and questions will come back again and again, that's completely understandable... The important thing is how we answer...

Thomas

I wnated to add some links to knowledge about freediving, but can't edit...

What I think is needed on deeperblue, as a user initiative, is a sticky that adresses these kind of questions from beginners. It should not only say NDA, but show people that others have had the exact same thoughts, and guide them, in a positive way to "what to do" (if you're alone).

Also there could be a thread atracting attention to such possible threads (where deeperblue members link to a thread, where advice is needed. There are so many threads, and like the one I'm linking to, the looong beginner posts are sometimes not seen as dangerous, but skipped I think).

I am aware that the above suggestions only adress a part of this threads many sub-fields.

Anyway, please also go to this thread an give your opinion (allthough good advice has allready been given from members, more perspectives are always good).

http://forums.deeperblue.com/beginn...d-blaines-mention-4-hour-bod-tim-ferriss.html

Damn this ended up a long post...

 

[esom]

Hi Baiyoke...

...
AND HOW CAN WE PREVENT IT???

i´d say, you ask in a similar way like before Kars did "how do we treat those people". when i take the great feedback you got from this guy into account, i´d also say, you gave the answer yourself already. BUT i am convinced this answer to the "how" question, is your reply itself.
...You could only give it because this guy openly wrote about his situation not minding others to think "this question was asked soo many times", or even worse (but real!!!) "shocking, that you can even think you could freedive alone". - making a sticky, twists this lucky situation supposedly180 deg!
differently said: the answer you gave to the question "how do we treat those people?" by replying to jago25_98 is not a general answer, but it evolves out of your relationship.



i´ll try to explain one more time why i think "NFA!" is maybe a risk if it´s used as a general rule, or as an easily given advice (there should be another word for this kind of advice...)
actually i pick only the argument concerning the freediving definition out of the different arguments given so far.

in the "freediving definition" threads on this forum is broad acceptance of a wide definition of freediving. Having this in mind "NFA!" makes not necessarily sense because with a wide understanding of "freediving", it´s obviously possible to dive safe alone. So there are obviously freedives that can be considered reasonbly safe to do alone. the many times repeated reason to keep on with a general "NFA!", is the assumption, that safety limits are too interdependent to be defined properly. Further that even if it was possible to judge, what is ok and what is not, one is not able to stay within certain limits, because of stronger other motivations.
Still, both arguments do not disprove the contradiction between stated freediving definition and the widely agreed on safety slogan.

i state, that, if we keep quiet about the obvious limits of the mentioned interdependencies regarding freediving safety and if we mistrust outspokenly first and foremost ourselves about our ability to come up in time, because of other motivations, this is expressing a freediving moral.
according to the reasons for keeping "NFA!" which are repeated above, "NFA!" can be a reflection of this very moral.

my question was: what does it mean to the beginner who is not able, to not dive alone (for good reasons,as it is potentially safe and very rewarding),what does it mean to the experienced or top level athlete who is not able, to not dive alone (for good reasons, as it is potentially safe and very rewarding) to know, to be included in a community, that broadly agrees on "NFA!" as a general reasonable rule and by this unites under a moral, which disresepcts actual submaximal dives and declares "reaching motivation" to be truly important to all the memebers of the freediving community?

the answers, that came to my mind, convinced me, that the way "NFA!" is used and installed and used... was produciung and will be producing accidents