is "never freedive alone!(!!)" safe?

[FreeRestriction]

Fear is the human bodies way of staying alive. without fear the human race would probably go extinct.

 

[Filto]

This whole thread is very uncomfortable and with some stories extremely sad to read. I have beome very interested in freediving and plan on doing a freediving course in egypt this fall. However its kinda offputting to read all of this and in one way it make you scared of pretty much being under water or even in the water alone. I love just snorkleing (without pushing and limits and go deep) and sometimes you go off alone for the reason to just be alone and the relaxing feeling of spending time in and under water be yourself. From the read obviously this is very unsafe aswell. But to get to the point.
Lots of things are unsafe, hey people die in traffic bicycling all the time but you can wear a helmet to minimize the risk of severe injury should something happen. My question is. Where is the helmet in freediving? Isn't their any protective gear developed that you can wear. For instance a lifevest that automatically inflates should you BO? Maybe you hold a button down while diving and should you release it for more than 5 seconds the vest fills with air carrying you to the surface? Am I being silly and naive or why shouldn't something like this work making freediving safer to practice?

 

[Simos]

This whole thread is very uncomfortable and with some stories extremely sad to read. I have beome very interested in freediving and plan on doing a freediving course in egypt this fall. However its kinda offputting to read all of this and in one way it make you scared of pretty much being under water or even in the water alone. I love just snorkleing (without pushing and limits and go deep) and sometimes you go off alone for the reason to just be alone and the relaxing feeling of spending time in and under water be yourself. From the read obviously this is very unsafe aswell. But to get to the point.
Lots of things are unsafe, hey people die in traffic bicycling all the time but you can wear a helmet to minimize the risk of severe injury should something happen. My question is. Where is the helmet in freediving? Isn't their any protective gear developed that you can wear. For instance a lifevest that automatically inflates should you BO? Maybe you hold a button down while diving and should you release it for more than 5 seconds the vest fills with air carrying you to the surface? Am I being silly and naive or why shouldn't something like this work making freediving safer to practice?

There is the Freediver's Recovery Vest if I got the name right but it's quite pricey. Or you can view the helmet as being your buddy.

 

[growingupninja]

This whole thread is very uncomfortable and with some stories extremely sad to read. I have beome very interested in freediving and plan on doing a freediving course in egypt this fall. However its kinda offputting to read all of this and in one way it make you scared of pretty much being under water or even in the water alone. I love just snorkleing (without pushing and limits and go deep) and sometimes you go off alone for the reason to just be alone and the relaxing feeling of spending time in and under water be yourself. From the read obviously this is very unsafe aswell. But to get to the point.
Lots of things are unsafe, hey people die in traffic bicycling all the time but you can wear a helmet to minimize the risk of severe injury should something happen. My question is. Where is the helmet in freediving? Isn't their any protective gear developed that you can wear. For instance a lifevest that automatically inflates should you BO? Maybe you hold a button down while diving and should you release it for more than 5 seconds the vest fills with air carrying you to the surface? Am I being silly and naive or why shouldn't something like this work making freediving safer to practice?

The freedive recovery vest, developed by Terry Maas. At the moment it is very pricey but coming models will be much, much cheaper. I am sure there are those that would preach 'never snorkel or swim alone' but plenty of people have grown up swimming alone in the ocean since childhood. At what point does 'swimming' become 'freediving?' Different for everyone. Be safe and go at your own pace. Educatuon, safety, and awareness are so very important but freediving culture and instruction should not be one of fear!

 

[Filto]

There is the Freediver's Recovery Vest if I got the name right but it's quite pricey. Or you can view the helmet as being your buddy.

Thats cool I'll look into it, thanks! A buddysystem can fail aswell I guess, so why no be extra safe? For all the talk of safety I wonder why aren't you all guys wearing this vest? I'm sure it's worth the extra cash if its your life we are talking about right?

edit. Looking into it I see it lacks as someone put it "Dead-mans-grip" which would be great for BO which is unfortunate

 

[Kars]

Hi Filto,

Thanks for your response, you really demonstrate beautifully how a beginner can perceive this discussion, in this you're teaching me.

As you may have noticed it is an advanced philosophical discussion questioning the way safety is taught, what works, how it's presented and perceived and the short and long term effects. It's a discussion one would expect top-level instructors to have redesigning their education program. Though it's about beginners too, it words are not aimed at beginners.

If you feel uncertain please identify your core questions. We can help you out finding understanding and dissolve your fears.

You speak of a freediver rescue device, well it actually exist. It's called the Freediver Recovery Vest (FRV). It's not cheap, but certainly much cheaper then your government estimated worth. The FRV is around $5000,- I believe.

Having a solid understanding of principles, a good set of experience will help you find peace. Even when some are sharing thoughts in a stirring way. Don't be overwhelmed by names of experts, jargon, complex impressive sentences, large groups, brass bands, flashy graphics and sophist's emotionally manipulative arguments. Step back and analyse, and when you comprehend the argument you can weight in peace and decide for yourself in your own time.

Love Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[Simos]

Thats cool I'll look into it, thanks! A buddysystem can fail aswell I guess, so why no be extra safe? For all the talk of safety I wonder why aren't you all guys wearing this vest? I'm sure it's worth the extra cash if its your life we are talking about right?

edit. Looking into it I see it lacks as someone put it "Dead-mans-grip" which would be great for BO which is unfortunate

Everyone perceives the risks and the ways to minimise them differently...

 

[Filto]

Hi Filto,

Thanks for your response, you really demonstrate beautifully how a beginner can perceive this discussion, in this you're teaching me.

As you may have noticed it is an advanced philosophical discussion questioning the way safety is taught, what works, how it's presented and perceived and the short and long term effects. It's a discussion one would expect top-level instructors to have redesigning their education program. Though it's about beginners too, it words are not aimed at beginners.

If you feel uncertain please identify your core questions. We can help you out finding understanding and dissolve your fears.

You speak of a freediver rescue device, well it actually exist. It's called the Freediver Recovery Vest (FRV). It's not cheap, but certainly much cheaper then your government estimated worth. The FRV is around $5000,- I believe.

Having a solid understanding of principles, a good set of experience will help you find peace. Even when some are sharing thoughts in a stirring way. Don't be overwhelmed by names of experts, jargon, complex impressive sentences, large groups, brass bands, flashy graphics and sophist's emotionally manipulative arguments. Step back and analyse, and when you comprehend the argument you can weight in peace and decide for yourself in your own time.

Love Courage and Water,

Kars

Thanks Kars. I guess ever since becomming fascinated with freediving I go between different states. Usually when watching and reading about freediving it just feels like the most serene, tranquil state and it reminds me how much I love the feeling of being under water and how happy it makes me. It inspires me to go proper courses, learn more about the sport. I've started training again, cut down on smoking, do yoga classes, practice O2 tables on the sofa etc (and spent silly money on a monofin thats costed a fortune to bring to Thailand and back on my vacation haha)

...but when reading much about freediving you ofcourse read about the dangers aswell and the tragic accidents and following threads like these, how can I put it, shifts the state and attitude towards frediving for me. All of a sudden freediving feels negative and its all about that big monster black out lurking in the depth that will eventually come and bite your head off to put it naively

I guess this relates back to the topic "Never dive alone" There are plenty of people who never read a single thing about freediving that snorkles, dive up and down to look at fishes etc and have a fun time doing it and most of them by a vast majority survives and go back enjoying their holiday. however for me as a beginner at freediving I can really not get a perspective on the danger of BO since the discussion always focus on "it can happen anywhere, anytime when you least expect it too" but not saying HOW common it is at different situations. The same statement goes for "A car can hit you in traffic, anywhere anytime when you least expect it to" but I can relate to those dangers where as fo BO it is much harder for me to get a grasp on things. And peoples reluctances to talk about these things with the mantra "Always have a buddy with you" doesn't really help. I will at times snorkle without 100 percent supervison from a friend, like I have always done in the past, sometimes you go shallow sometimes abit deeper. Ideas on how to be safer in these situations would help a great deal.

 

[trux]

The FRV is around $5000,- I believe.

No, the FRV v1 was ~$3000. And it was already excellent - I have tested it and was amazed by it. Now, Terry has completed the development of the second generation which improves most aspects of the FRV three times: 3 times cheaper (barely above $1000)! 3 times smaller! And works 3 times deeper (up to ~100m): Freedivers Recovery Vest Mark II

 

[FreeRestriction]

Filto, yes you may black out some day. Knowing this, the best thing you can do is put your fears to rest by getting proper training for you and your buddys. Once your properly trained to deal with a BO you will rest assured your still in a safe environment. A BO is nothing to fear when the correct safety protocol is met. Now im not saying be fearless and go wild but if you BO your buddy will rescue you and youll very likely come out just fine. The key is knowing what to do.

 

[trux]

Just wanted to add that I'd tell that the worst risk in freediving is ignorance. Too many young people die freedvining because they had no clue they did somehting wrong. Yes, you can tell life is dangerous anyway, and that risks are everywhere, even when you drive a car or walk on the street, so why not freediving without caring much about the warnings. But would you advise someone who never saw a car or heard about driving one, to take your car and drive through the city alone? Would you send a kid who came from the bush and never saw a car, walking to the other end of the city? I guess that not. The risks are too high. It is the same with freediving. There are risks and you better learn about them before you encouter them. So educate yourself, take a course, dive with an experienced buddy.

 

[Andrew the fish]

... So educate yourself, take a course, dive with an experienced buddy.

The whole safety aspect can be expressed in two sentences, why bother spending 100's of dollars to have someone to tell you the same thing. Never freedive alone. Do not hyperventilate.

I am scrolling thwough numerous threads here and google to find any scraps of information on how to be safer - there is none. Nobody knows how to stay safe while freediving alone. Those who think they know something would always be tight lipped for some kind of moral obligations.

To Kars - so, from what you are saying, this thread is for freediving guru's to discuss what exactly? How to word the same thing (never freedive alone), differently? Like I said earlier, the whole thread is pointless if not silly. Try to prove otherwise, somebody surprise me with any bit of useful information

Ok, let me some it up once again - never freedive alone to be marginally safer. Ok, I've done it, now everybody just go home.

 

[trux]

... why bother spending 100's of dollars to have someone to tell you the same thing. Never freedive alone. Do not hyperventilate.

There is much more than just that. You need to avoid lactic acid accumulation otherwise your body consumes more and more O2 without you noticing it even if you do not hyperventilate (and the acid lactic will naturally and subconsciently push you to so). You need to know how to weight you properly. You need to know how to choose, adjust, and use your equipment to save energy and O2, and to prevent accidents. You need to learn the right technique to avoid stupid mistakes costing you O2, energy, or increasing the risk of blackout. You need to learn to stay calm between dives to recharge your O2 stores. You need to learn to keep the surface intervals sufficiently long... Well, I could continue for a long time - but in a course or in a book you will learn it better. And also it is important to understand the physiology, otherwise you often won't be able to understand what's going on, and won't be able to react correctly. You also need to learn to listen to your body signals.

You can learn a lot of it also alone by tries and errors, but in case of freediving it is much better avodiing the errors as much as you can, because they are unfortunately often deadly. "Never dive alone" is good, and may be a fix for many errors, but only as long as the buddy is sufficiently experienced. If it is just the same beginner as the other one, then it does not help that much. And even if you have a buddy, taking a course is still a good investition and you will learn proper habits quicker and learn diving better than when doing it only on your own.

 

[ThomasB]

I am scrolling thwough numerous threads here and google to find any scraps of information on how to be safer - there is none.

You serious?!?

 

[Mullins]

There is a vast amount of information on exactly that topic on DB alone. From simple and universal (buddy system, surface intervals, breathing prep) to complicated and specific (dive profile, technique, diet, gear).

 

[laminar]

There is much more than just that. You need to avoid lactic acid accumulation otherwise your body consumes more and more O2 without you noticing it even if you do not hyperventilate (and the acid lactic will naturally and subconsciently push you to so). You need to know how to weight you properly. You need to know how to choose, adjust, and use your equipment to save energy and O2, and to prevent accidents. You need to learn the right technique to avoid stupid mistakes costing you O2, energy, or increasing the risk of blackout. You need to learn to stay calm between dives to recharge your O2 stores. You need to learn to keep the surface intervals sufficiently long... Well, I could continue for a long time - but in a course or in a book you will learn it better. And also it is important to understand the physiology, otherwise you often won't be able to understand what's going on, and won't be able to react correctly. You also need to learn to listen to your body signals.

You can learn a lot of it also alone by tries and errors, but in case of freediving it is much better avodiing the errors as much as you can, because they are unfortunately often deadly. "Never dive alone" is good, and may be a fix for many errors, but only as long as the buddy is sufficiently experienced. If it is just the same beginner as the other one, then it does not help that much. And even if you have a buddy, taking a course is still a good investition and you will learn proper habits quicker and learn diving better than when doing it only on your own.

Great post, Trux.

How you begin to describe the details of safer diving, reminds me by contrast of what freediving was like when I started diving in 2000. I had no idea of the knowledge that we would acquire (sometimes the hard way) in the next 10 years or so.

And I think that there is knowledge that isn't shared among divers, but I'm not sure why.

When I started freediving:

* Blackouts were scary, not accepted as okay. This changed, unfortunately, in my opinion. They may not be scary for the diver, but they sure as hell as scary to the casual observer.

* I had lots of lung squeezes. Not good. But no one was really listening to those stories.

* No one knew diddly squat about lung/trachea squeezes and my efforts to learn more from so-called freediving coaching experts were, for the most part, fruitless and even the opposite of what I expected (ie. at least one well known freediving coach promoted training methods at the time that lead to frequent squeezes and blackouts among competitive divers - not sure if that has changed. Hopefully, it has!)

* Freediving competitions were done with no lanyard. Scuba divers were required. But on many occasions they caused screw ups (on the wrong lines, losing the descent line, etc). Some divers surface an hour later, thankfully, having drifted far away.

But one or two really came through on one occasion to prevent a serious accident in Vancouver, at least.

* The approach to freediving that I saw for the most part was, what I would now call: Purge, Pack and Bolt. Blow off lots of C02, pack as much air and go as fast as you can. Thank goodness most successful divers have evolved from that - at least I hope so. That was probably the worst approach to diving I've seen and it caused many blackouts, squeezes, and scares.

* The gear pretty much sucked back then. Now awesome gear is everywhere and that definitely makes it possible to be more efficient and thus dive more within your competency zone. But it also allows people to dive way deeper and encounter new dangers such as DCS.

* AIDA rules were in shambles. They tried to eliminate blackouts, which I completely understand, but it took a while to get a decent compromise, which is what we have in the present rules.

All this to say is that safety is a complex topic, it's not just "never dive alone:" from your first diving buddy or instructor's influence on you, to your own attitude toward risk, your freediving skills, what specifically you enjoy about freediving (depth, time, swimming underwater, bragging, ego, travel, seeing stuff, friends, etc...), your potential for putting yourself in a bad situation or playing it safe, your competitive experience (in some people it can make them much safer or much more dangerous), etc... all ends up forming our own take on freediving safety.

I'd guess that every freediving community has had a tough discussion about safety. That's good. Unfortunately it comes from an incident, usually.

For myself, it comes down to the unspoken (or overt) contract you have with the people you share the water with on a regular basis.

I support never dive alone in one main aspect, because, actually, lots of bad things can happen on the surface of the water and you definitely need someone to help you so you don't drown: heart attack, hypothermia, stroke, boat collision, animal attack or injury, etc...

But if you dive alone and have a heart attack that's your choice. It will be very sad for those you leave behind, but that could also happen when you cross the street or sit in front of TV. Actually, its apparently most likely when you're on the can.

For underwater safety, never dive alone it is unrealistic and misleading in much of the world (dark, green water) and for recreational diving.

Even in high-vis water, it is problematic. Your buddy doesn't come up. You find him on the bottom in 30m of water. You go back up. The clock is ticking. So you need to calm down and go get him. You're freaked. Lots of C02. You are putting your own life at risk to save him.

The buddy system has just broken down.....(because your buddy is now putting you in danger - emotions aside - by needing to be rescue in a high risk situation).

In this context, the thing I struggle with the most is properly communicating my tolerance for the risks others are willing to take and my own. This is not easy.

I do not want to dive with someone that I know is pushing themselves on every dive, whether it's recreational (especially!) or competitive. I do not want to dive with someone who cannot tell me when they feel uncomfortable about my own diving habits. I do not want to dive with someone who watches their gauge on every dive and then tells me how deep they went (I was guilty of this myself in the past....freediving can stroke the ego like nothing else). I do not want to dive with someone so impatient for results that they are not going to observe what is going on outside of them.

I do not want to spend my time in the water feeling nervous about someone else. And, if I follow that, I should not make the other person nervous and fearful for me either.

I want to enjoy this magnificent sport for years.

We really need to know the people we dive with as well as possible. I think that is a great measure of prevention.

We need to speak up when we're uneasy.

We need to each do our best to learn from others and test our own assumptions against more experienced but also inquisitive and intelligent newer divers.

We need to communicate with each other and learn from each other.

I think that beyond "NEVER DIVE ALONE" we should be looking for a philosophy that is something along the lines of KNOW YOUR DIVE BUDDY or DO NO HARM or just CHILL OUT MAN.....not good names I know....just brainstorming..

Ultimately it's your decision. But if you make the decision for your diving friend without really letting them know what they are in for, that's just unfair.

Here's a dramatization of how I see the NEVER DIVE ALONE failing miserably in one tongue and cheek circumstance:

BOB: "We're using the buddy system. Yay! We're not diving alone! I am so safe, I need to call my mom so I can get my gold star!"

TED: "Okay, Bob, some things you should know before we start. I dive to 60m most dives and my dive time is about 4:30"

BOB: "Great!"

TED: "That means, if we're going to strictly use the buddy system, is that you need to wait for me on the surface and I need to tell you where I expect to come up, which you can expect to be at least 150m away from where I go down, because with this visibility, you won't see me until I'm five metres from the surface and you just happen to be right on top of me."

BOB: "Okay...."

TED: "And you've got to know that if I don't come up for any reason (entanglement, blackout, Humboldt Squid) I probably will be too deep for you to rescue me, assuming you can find me. So you might have to find your own way back to town. I hid the keys to the car and I can't really tell you where they are."

BOB: "Uh..."

TED: "And given that you're going to be watching over me, and it takes me about 5 minutes staying perfect motionless with my eyes closed to recover properly, meaning I can't really watch over you, so I don't want you diving at all. THat way you'll always be fresh and able to rescue me if I black out shallow. But while you wait for me, you can think about what you'll say to your friends later about what gems you learned from me about diving and how generally awesome I am as a diver. Sound good?"

BOB: "Uh, okay, I guess."

TED: "Also, I need you to prepare my special suit lube. It's a slick solution made with fresh aloe vera combined with human saliva. Not my own saliva, though, that would dehydrate me. I need at least a litre. Start spitting and juicing, my new best friend."

 

[Ms Mer]

There are plenty of people who never read a single thing about freediving that snorkles, dive up and down to look at fishes etc and have a fun time doing it and most of them by a vast majority survives and go back enjoying their holiday..............And peoples reluctances to talk about these things with the mantra "Always have a buddy with you" doesn't really help. I will at times snorkle without 100 percent supervison from a friend, like I have always done in the past, sometimes you go shallow sometimes abit deeper. Ideas on how to be safer in these situations would help a great deal.

Filto I also snorkel (and sea swim) alone as it is rare I have someone to go with. I am not sure how much of a risk I am taking doing these things. I'm open to hearing others feedback on that. I snorkel in a very safe sheltered area along a marked snorkel course and only in calm conditions. I don't go deep, maybe the max depth I duck dive to is 3m and given I don't use a weight belt when snorkeling, I pop back up a few seconds later. The majority of time I am on the surface breathing through my snorkel. As far as sea swimming goes, I have been doing it for years and am confident in the water, I keep to the harbour and safe inner bays and again know what conditions I can swim in and what I can't and if it it is rough or a fair bit of current then I stay close to shore. I don't swim at beaches with rips. On the odd occasion I have got cramp on a swim, I stop and float on my back. I have never felt that I was putting myself in danger.

When it comes to freediving however, I don't freedive alone and have no intention of doing so as seeing a BO happen taught me alot. Also, respecting the sea, knowing my own limitations (and there are many of them, being a beginner) and wanting to keep enjoying the water for many many years to come means that I don't want to take the risk and end up as a statistic.

Would I stop snorkeling and sea swimming because of having no one to snorkel or swim with though - probably not to be honest. I feel that I use enough commonsense to base my decision whether to go out or not.

 

[Simos]

After a few beers, I have finally found a better way to pass the message to everyone:

------------------------<drum roll>--------------------------

Two fish were in a tank. One turns to the other and says, "Do you know how to drive this thing?"

NEVER DRIVE ALONE (not even fish do)

 

[Kars]

Well if you had a few then it's a solid advise not to drive alone

 

[aquarius blue]

Hi everybody.
I'm totaly agree with Ms Mer. i also love snorkeling, and i ofcourse dive down to photograph fish and other creatures. i have an nice canon powershot d10 wich goes max.10 meters. but i stay around 3 a 5 meters because of the better lighting for the photos. Real constant weight stuff i always dive with buddy or with an group, but snorkeling i like to do alone. i have done my freedive courses i know what the risk are with freediving.
Hell i think i'm better informed than most people (couples/aka buddying couples) who are snorkeling from the resort house reef and ocasionaly try to dive below, who are not freedivers but just average holiday people.

consider it like driving a car. you can drive 10 to 20 km p.h.
you can die ofcourse,,its hard tough, with an crash you sure can get wounded.
you also can get an hearth attack an ride from a cliff even driving 10 km ph.
when you drive 40 to 70 km p.h the risk are higher,,and when you drive 100 to 160 km.ph & Mr Death himself will swim along side with you and holding your hand.

so i considering snorkeling like driving 10km.ph and the deeper you go,,,,or ofcourse the longer you stay under water (at any depth) the risk get higher.
everybody knows mullins and trubridge, its silly to say to them Never Dive Alone when they want to go snorkeling.

the sad thing is,, i believe that there are alway people who wanto thake big risk. you see it every day on the highway they like to drive 180 km p.h. we just try to educate those people here on DB. just saying never dive alone to people who wanto dive alone anyway wont help. advising him to stay above 5 or 10m for example or other "damage control advise"maybe ,just maybe is the little trigger to prevent him from dying,,or minimise the risk.

it seems the situation is now devided in two camps .
the group who says: yes we must give advise to make sure this daredevil stay within the safe limits of his dive (lets say 25% of his max depth or breathold time)
the second group says: NOOO never dive alone, every advise is an justification of his solo diving and therefore blood on my hands and the DB forum.

well in a way,,both camps are right.