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Long Live Free Speach! Not!
- Thread starter QUETZAL
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 90 days.
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seachaser said:
When I was discussing the equipment Dan used I never said wing, below is quotes of what I said.
In reffering to your claim of being a techinical diver, is when I used the term wing.
Why don't you answer the questions I posed to you, instead of making baseless accusations?
Did you see the second power inflator in the picture?
Like I said in the PM I sent you, you have a total lack of integrity.
bgbill said:
bgbill said:
bgbill said:
BG,
Let’s try to keep this civil and avoid the personal attacks. I enjoy a good discussion.
My concern at depth, gear is subject to tremendous pressure. A regulator should continue to work fine while breathing from the unit. My concern is the pressure of the water would not allow the lever/diaphragm (if purged) to return to its correct position and continue to free flow.
I never said I was an expert, but a free flowing regulator is always a major concern at depth. I wouldn’t do anything that could create a free flow situation.
Maybe you are an expert and could give us a technical explanation. For all I know, you may be Bill Hogarth.
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Gentlemen,
Let's try to get a few things cleared up.
First I wouldn't say I'm a "regulator expert" either, but I know enough to represent the Zeagle line in Florida.
Pressure is moderately intense at 425 fsw, but it will have little effect on the solid parts of a regulator. Gasses are compressible but levers and diaphragms are not. An Ansti test lab has run extreme tests on Flathead VI Zeagle regulators, to just over 307 fsw, the testing equipment limit, and they were found to have a work of breathing of as low as 1.16 joules/liter @ 62.5 rmv. If you recall the US Navy only needed 1.40 j/l @ 198 fsw for it's approval criteria. Many regulators that can't touch that score have been used at depths far greater than Dan MacMahon dove to, for the big Warsaw grouper. Dan was using our new Flathead XP which has out performed the Flathead VI and additionally, he was on trimix, not air which is used in the tests, and helium is as you know, a far less dense gas.
Secondly, the BCs used by Dan and Ricky are Zeagle back plates with 85 lbs dual "Big Bertha" bladders or wings. (Yes, all back plates and wings are still Buoyancy Compensators.)
Lastly, there is no question about the authenticity of the dive Team Head Hunter made for the 403 lbs Warsaw grouper. We know exactly when, where, what, why and how the dive was made and the fish was speared. It was only a matter of time before another diver brought in another huge Warsaw. A 338 lbs Warsaw was shot in the early 90's off Pompano Beach, Florida. It took that diver 2 days and 4 spearguns to bring it up from 280 fsw. It does not surprise me that it was Dan MacMahon that successfully speared this new monster. I took my trimix training with Dan in the summer of 2001 and we brought up some huge black groupers back then as well!
Chad Carney
TDI/SDI Instructor 250
Zeagle Systems FL Sales
Let's try to get a few things cleared up.
First I wouldn't say I'm a "regulator expert" either, but I know enough to represent the Zeagle line in Florida.
Pressure is moderately intense at 425 fsw, but it will have little effect on the solid parts of a regulator. Gasses are compressible but levers and diaphragms are not. An Ansti test lab has run extreme tests on Flathead VI Zeagle regulators, to just over 307 fsw, the testing equipment limit, and they were found to have a work of breathing of as low as 1.16 joules/liter @ 62.5 rmv. If you recall the US Navy only needed 1.40 j/l @ 198 fsw for it's approval criteria. Many regulators that can't touch that score have been used at depths far greater than Dan MacMahon dove to, for the big Warsaw grouper. Dan was using our new Flathead XP which has out performed the Flathead VI and additionally, he was on trimix, not air which is used in the tests, and helium is as you know, a far less dense gas.
Secondly, the BCs used by Dan and Ricky are Zeagle back plates with 85 lbs dual "Big Bertha" bladders or wings. (Yes, all back plates and wings are still Buoyancy Compensators.)
Lastly, there is no question about the authenticity of the dive Team Head Hunter made for the 403 lbs Warsaw grouper. We know exactly when, where, what, why and how the dive was made and the fish was speared. It was only a matter of time before another diver brought in another huge Warsaw. A 338 lbs Warsaw was shot in the early 90's off Pompano Beach, Florida. It took that diver 2 days and 4 spearguns to bring it up from 280 fsw. It does not surprise me that it was Dan MacMahon that successfully speared this new monster. I took my trimix training with Dan in the summer of 2001 and we brought up some huge black groupers back then as well!
Chad Carney
TDI/SDI Instructor 250
Zeagle Systems FL Sales
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CC,
Good answer. The original concerns still remain. I’m still not convinced it is a wise thing to purge your regulator at depth (for 10 seconds). Did Zeagle test for this? Would you do this? IMO. The pressure would only have an effect if the regulator parts were manually depressed, but like I said I’m not an expert.
OK. It appears he is using a double bladder BC. The second bladder is clearly used as a backup only. The original question was, is the 3-minute decent time realistic? Safe? At what point would he slow his descent?
We know he powerheaded the fish. That is not very sporting! The question is, was it the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd shot? Or maybe all 3 shots!
Let’s talk about the weight. These chest beaters took over 800 pictures and apparently not even one on the scale! I saw how big the guys on the boat were. They probably don’t want to be anywhere close to a scale!
Sorry. This story is so full of holes it is not even funny! Like I Said it was powerheaded in much shallower water. What a whopper! Hell. Some of us could have probably free dived to the actual depth and wouldn’t have needed a powerhead!
Good answer. The original concerns still remain. I’m still not convinced it is a wise thing to purge your regulator at depth (for 10 seconds). Did Zeagle test for this? Would you do this? IMO. The pressure would only have an effect if the regulator parts were manually depressed, but like I said I’m not an expert.
OK. It appears he is using a double bladder BC. The second bladder is clearly used as a backup only. The original question was, is the 3-minute decent time realistic? Safe? At what point would he slow his descent?
We know he powerheaded the fish. That is not very sporting! The question is, was it the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd shot? Or maybe all 3 shots!
Let’s talk about the weight. These chest beaters took over 800 pictures and apparently not even one on the scale! I saw how big the guys on the boat were. They probably don’t want to be anywhere close to a scale!
Sorry. This story is so full of holes it is not even funny! Like I Said it was powerheaded in much shallower water. What a whopper! Hell. Some of us could have probably free dived to the actual depth and wouldn’t have needed a powerhead!
seachaser said:
Not one diver on either forum that has done dives of this magnitude (or close to it) has questioned the authenticity of the dive or the size of the fish. And yet you, whose questions are so basic that you obviously do not have the first clue about technical diving, claim that the dive is a sham. So share with all of us what your rate of decent is on a dive that is half as deep as the one posted??? How about the gear you used on your last trimix dive? Or the biggest grouper you have boated and the depth taken? You posts do disprove one thing, the old adage “there are no stupid questions”. Why don’t you just come out and state your problem/issue with these guys shooting a fish in 400’ of water? Or was this dive so outside the realm of your limited imagination that it seems impossible to you?
John
John A said:
Ok that’s real good John. You try to turn the table and ask the questions while avoiding answering the basic questions I have about the dive. The bottom line is, IMO, the dive is a SHAM until these guys can offer some credible answers!
I will make it easy for you:
Divers do regularly "bomb" a wreck at a rate of 100'/min or better and it is "safe";
You can purge a balance HP regulator at that depth with out problem;
Fish that size do not normally hang out on the first reef, FYI I have dove wrecks off the SE coast of FL in 250' of water and have not seen grouper of that size;
On a dive that deep in open water the goal is to get down, do what you gotta do and get back up ASAP, every min. on the bottom incures a huge amount of deco;
I would bet there are not 20 divers in the world right now that could/would do that dive;
What more would you like to know???
John
Divers do regularly "bomb" a wreck at a rate of 100'/min or better and it is "safe";
You can purge a balance HP regulator at that depth with out problem;
Fish that size do not normally hang out on the first reef, FYI I have dove wrecks off the SE coast of FL in 250' of water and have not seen grouper of that size;
On a dive that deep in open water the goal is to get down, do what you gotta do and get back up ASAP, every min. on the bottom incures a huge amount of deco;
I would bet there are not 20 divers in the world right now that could/would do that dive;
What more would you like to know???
John
Geeze, I go outta town for a couple of weeks and a HUGE grouper is shot DEEP and now it's started WWIII. A friend told me about it and then I read the account on SB. On my read I didn't really have a problem w/ the details of the dive or hunt.
As for the question of decent rate, last week I was tek diving for science in the Keys and ck'd my decent rate. W/ dbl 112's and 2 stages was falling at about 138'/min w/out trying. Throw on an additional stage and a gun and I'm sure I could reach that depth in 3min. Actually if you read the post he stopped at 300 and something not 400.
As far as shooting the fish and pretty much stoneing it. Even w/ a fish that large, if hit in the right spot it doesn't take that much penetration to take the wind out of it's sails. Probably 3" will get a spine or brain hit up forward. There were guys "back in the day" that were shooting Jewfish that large or larger w/ Hawaiin slings.
As for the PH to finish it off, so what. Extreme conditions call for extreme measures. An extra 5min of BT at that depth could mean and extra 30min of deco. Not to mention giving the fish more time to possibly get off or be lost.
As most of you can probably tell by now I spear on scuba and freediving and am moving into spearing while tech diving. If that's not your cup of tea then so be it. As long as I follow the law on bag/size limits, dead is dead, no matter the take method. I've been flamed on this site for having a good catch while strictly freediving. I never post the catches I've made while on scuba on this site. The point is, someone is always going to disagree w/ you. It gets tricky when you start questioning/slamming people b/c your OPINION on a subject isn't the same as theirs(I've done my share).
The cause of the antimosity is pretty clear. A freediver went to a predominately scuba website w/ his agenda. Got shut out there then brought the scuba subject over here to a predominately freediving web site. DUH...ya think there's gonna be some friction?
Where ever you draw the line, it's your business. I'm gonna give the guy the benefit of the doubt and say well done.
Jay
As for the question of decent rate, last week I was tek diving for science in the Keys and ck'd my decent rate. W/ dbl 112's and 2 stages was falling at about 138'/min w/out trying. Throw on an additional stage and a gun and I'm sure I could reach that depth in 3min. Actually if you read the post he stopped at 300 and something not 400.
As far as shooting the fish and pretty much stoneing it. Even w/ a fish that large, if hit in the right spot it doesn't take that much penetration to take the wind out of it's sails. Probably 3" will get a spine or brain hit up forward. There were guys "back in the day" that were shooting Jewfish that large or larger w/ Hawaiin slings.
As for the PH to finish it off, so what. Extreme conditions call for extreme measures. An extra 5min of BT at that depth could mean and extra 30min of deco. Not to mention giving the fish more time to possibly get off or be lost.
As most of you can probably tell by now I spear on scuba and freediving and am moving into spearing while tech diving. If that's not your cup of tea then so be it. As long as I follow the law on bag/size limits, dead is dead, no matter the take method. I've been flamed on this site for having a good catch while strictly freediving. I never post the catches I've made while on scuba on this site. The point is, someone is always going to disagree w/ you. It gets tricky when you start questioning/slamming people b/c your OPINION on a subject isn't the same as theirs(I've done my share).
The cause of the antimosity is pretty clear. A freediver went to a predominately scuba website w/ his agenda. Got shut out there then brought the scuba subject over here to a predominately freediving web site. DUH...ya think there's gonna be some friction?
Where ever you draw the line, it's your business. I'm gonna give the guy the benefit of the doubt and say well done.
Jay
Thanks Jay,
Nice answer. It is something more in the lines I was looking for. I still question the dive, there is a lot more to a descent rate with 5 tanks than how fast you can drop. I suppose what makes me the most skeptical is the beginning of his account when he claimed the grouper aggressively approached him. I immediately thought this story is going to be a whopper.
I guess none of us will ever know what actually took place. Powerheading a fish on SCUBA is something I would not do or respect under any circumstances and I would absolutely not boast about doing so. That’s the way I feel.
Once again, thanks for the professional response. It is refreshing to see someone state their opinion without a personal attack!
Seachaser
Nice answer. It is something more in the lines I was looking for. I still question the dive, there is a lot more to a descent rate with 5 tanks than how fast you can drop. I suppose what makes me the most skeptical is the beginning of his account when he claimed the grouper aggressively approached him. I immediately thought this story is going to be a whopper.
I guess none of us will ever know what actually took place. Powerheading a fish on SCUBA is something I would not do or respect under any circumstances and I would absolutely not boast about doing so. That’s the way I feel.
Once again, thanks for the professional response. It is refreshing to see someone state their opinion without a personal attack!
Seachaser
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Have you ever seen large jewfish? They act the same way...very aggressive. As for freediving on that fish...we can only wish. I know of only one warsaw grouper ever taken by a freediver and it was something like 12 lbs(Chad Palan's "world record"). they are very deep groupers.
The problem I am having with your responses are that you do not want personal attacks on you but every post you have made is slamming these guys you dont know in a very personal way...you are calling them liars! Some posting here are personal friends of the diver in question and Bucket One was even on the trip. He freedove for surface support and shot a dandy of a wahoo on the same voyage.
You also have been blasting people for not answering your questions but have yet to answer any of your own...do you tech dive at all? Is this type of diving in your realm of experience(its definately not in mine
) You have some answering to do yourself in order for many to believe you are not a "sham" yourself and have legitimate questions instead of merely wanting to stir the pot a little.
Mike Freeman
The problem I am having with your responses are that you do not want personal attacks on you but every post you have made is slamming these guys you dont know in a very personal way...you are calling them liars! Some posting here are personal friends of the diver in question and Bucket One was even on the trip. He freedove for surface support and shot a dandy of a wahoo on the same voyage.
You also have been blasting people for not answering your questions but have yet to answer any of your own...do you tech dive at all? Is this type of diving in your realm of experience(its definately not in mine
) You have some answering to do yourself in order for many to believe you are not a "sham" yourself and have legitimate questions instead of merely wanting to stir the pot a little.Mike Freeman
Rig,
Whenever go public with a story you should expect to be scrutinized. Some will go along others will not. It’s a fact of life.
Most marine scientist will tell you fish become conditioned by interactions with humans. Hence, in some area, you will encounter aggressive jewfish. To make a leap from this aggressive type behavior to a Warsaw that mostly likely has never seen a human, not known to be protective of its territory, and has no natural predators at that size, is farfetched.
I’m sorry that I do question their story. I see too many holes. I will leave it at that. Let others examine the issue and decide for themselves.
Whenever go public with a story you should expect to be scrutinized. Some will go along others will not. It’s a fact of life.
Most marine scientist will tell you fish become conditioned by interactions with humans. Hence, in some area, you will encounter aggressive jewfish. To make a leap from this aggressive type behavior to a Warsaw that mostly likely has never seen a human, not known to be protective of its territory, and has no natural predators at that size, is farfetched.
I’m sorry that I do question their story. I see too many holes. I will leave it at that. Let others examine the issue and decide for themselves.
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you still refuse to answer any questions posed of you. Why? Since when has a large grouper not known to be territorial? Even small reef bound groupers can be aggressively defensive of their territories...red grouper for example. They will have a stare down with you, even come out of their holes to confront you. Ive witnessed many, many gags do the same thing. And in ALL areas large jewfish are present, you will see aggressive behaviors.
Why have YOU answered no questions yet demand accountability of everyone else? You're not a politician are you?
Why have YOU answered no questions yet demand accountability of everyone else? You're not a politician are you?
seachaser said:
Sir,
Zeagle, Dive Lab in PC, FL nor any other lab I know of could test a regulator at such a depth. (I personally don't care to venture past 250 fsw at this time.) Because pressure is evenly applied in all directions, regulators work just fine at much greater depths than 400 fsw, and would actually be less likely to veturi open whether the valve was opened by purge or breathing, due to the increased resistance of gas density... freezing temperatures excluded of course.
I've not been lucky enough to see a Warsaw grouper in 33 years of diving on well over 5 thousand dives, most of them hunting dives and easily multiple hundred at 200+ fsw. In the last 3 years I've personally been on boats where half a dozen were shot by buddies. The largest not being over 70 lbs. and none were taken in less than 200 fsw. One I saw at a weigh-in was in the mid 90s at a tournament last year. The divers in Louisiana have more on record than anywhere, and none have been taken over 200 lbs in over 20 years. The LA Council shows only 10 bigger than 200 lbs and the largest was 275 lbs in 1980. These are simply not shallow water fish.
Here is the newest Warsaw record by a freediver: 39.4 lbs. Paulo De Sa' Junior 2004-10-20 BRAZIL
http://www.freediver.net/iusa/world_record_list.php
I'll answer no more questions or fabrications from you sir, since you disregard the answers from credible people.
BTW... who did you say you were? And what exactly were your credentials?
Chad Carney
Zeagle Systems Sales
TDI/SDI Instructor 250
seachaser said:
You are still making baseless acusations, yes the fish was power headed, on the 3rd shot, after it had been shot with 2 free shafts.
Now you are saying you could have free dove to 425'?
Tell me where you live, I will take you out on my boat or a charter to see you free dive down to 425'.
How about you posting some pictures of the fish you have shot.
I think you are a keyboard commando, and are only good at shooting off your mouth.
On another note - I cannot help but notice that record list is all for saltwater types. I should to wax a 3 gram stickelback just to get my name on there
If I could generate some interest in the great lakes maybe I could get the spearfishing laws changed. Right now anglers are the golden boys of the tourist industry here - lakes are crammed full of salmon to where I consider them environmental polution but they apply the same spearfishing laws to freedivers as they do to guys standing on docks with five tine pole spears.
If I could generate some interest in the great lakes maybe I could get the spearfishing laws changed. Right now anglers are the golden boys of the tourist industry here - lakes are crammed full of salmon to where I consider them environmental polution but they apply the same spearfishing laws to freedivers as they do to guys standing on docks with five tine pole spears.
Seachaser, give it a rest.
I pissed off the entire Spearboard by simply inquiring whether warsaw were once available in shallow water (I shot one at 60 feet in the early 60) and now we were just chasing them deeper and deeper. But I don't question the facts as these guys have presented them, and I don't question what an awesome technical feat it was and what balls they displayed. Why not just take them at their word rather than looking for some sinister coverup?
I pissed off the entire Spearboard by simply inquiring whether warsaw were once available in shallow water (I shot one at 60 feet in the early 60) and now we were just chasing them deeper and deeper. But I don't question the facts as these guys have presented them, and I don't question what an awesome technical feat it was and what balls they displayed. Why not just take them at their word rather than looking for some sinister coverup?
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