lung squeeze problems, looking for advice

[Giobbi]

Hi all, i too have to join this thread - the squeezed ones. : /

A couple of days ago i did 56m CWT, the dive was beautiful, new pb - love the freefall.

I'm having problems with eq and don't fully master the control of mouthfill, often do reverse packs to eq, below 35-40m. Packing around 60-70%. Usually warm up with one or two 20-25m dives, sometimes more. Thinking of adding some FRC or empty lung warmups. The water here is cold, below 14°/15m. Contractions often comes early.

After the deep dive i felt, i think, that my trachea got squeezed. How can one tell the difference between a trachea or lung squeeze? In theory if i cough pure blood, red as i would bleed from my finger that means trachea? If its foamy and really red its from the lungs?

-Is there a way to stretch trachea?
-Uddiyana bandha (when diving) helps diaphragm and consequently trachea?
-Arms close to body reduce the squeeze risk?
-Contractions are bad (squeeze risk increasing)?
-Cold can contribute to squeeze?
-Bad equalization (reverse packs) contributes?
-Maybe I'm just one of the bad trachea guys? How can one tell?

I've done lots of stretching dry and pool since fall. One thin I've notices is when I tend to push empty lungs or reverse packs, i often cough or get the urge to cough. Bad?

 

[picasso]

I answer what I know from my personal experience:

you stretch trachea when diving, apart of that you can stretch trachea when you fully exhale and can use reverse pack as well and pull up/inflect your diaphragm as you'd like to inhale but you don't because you have your epiglottis closed and try slowly and easy push your chin up as you want to look up. You will feel your trachea stretched.

Arms close to body reduce squeeze risk.
Contractions are bad, because it pulls trachea backward, increases underpressure and when you are not flexible it could cause squeeze
Cold water helps to squeeze very much. We have lake with 4 degrees down there and it makes you more inflexible so more inclined to squeeze
When I tried reverse packs I had squeeze so as several guys I know when they tried it. So I decided it is not good way to dive deep. But I have heart that Umberto Pelizzari doesn't use mouth fill so I couldn't imagine what else apart from reverse packs he could do for diving?
I thing you should avoid reverse packs and focus on relaxation during diving. No force, slow progress, be patient :.

-Is there a way to stretch trachea?
-Arms close to body reduce the squeeze risk?
-Contractions are bad (squeeze risk increasing)?
-Cold can contribute to squeeze?
-Bad equalization (reverse packs) contributes?
-Maybe I'm just one of the bad trachea guys? How can one tell?

 

[Giobbi]

Thanks for your input picasso, appreciate it a lot.

How can i monitor the severity of a squeeze with puls oxymeter?

 

[osusim]

I guess 97-98% is a normal for everybody, after several deep breath must be 99%. If you see 92-94% and several hours later SpO2 is still low then you're in trouble. Of course room for test should be good ventilated and no other health problems is involved.

 

[fpernett]

Dear All,

I'm an italian freediver and I would like to share with you my experience and ask for some suggestions.

Yesterday I was training and after a 4 warm up dives at 15/20 meters in FRC I've started some CWT dives at 40/42 meters (the day before I've been freediving in FRC mode at 24/28m and full exhale with reverse packing at 5/6 meters...I did probably 30 dives in total). Consider that my PB in CWT is 55 and my deepest dive is 63 in FIM.

The first 4 dives at 40,40.4,41,6 and 42 were ok but during the last one I've added some static at the bottom (40 sec) with perception of some soft contractions and than I started the ascent.
On the surface I felt the squeeze in the trachea and I've started spitting some blood. After 1 hour everything was back to normality.
Today I feel some kinda of pressure on the upper part of the chest but if I do a full and deep breath with some packing I do not feel any panic in my chest at all.

Conditions: Water temperature on the surface was 26 deg. while on the bottom it was 16 deg.!!!I was just shivering during the static.
Probably during the turn from the bottom I did force too much pulling on the rope with my right hand and I've stretched too much my rib-cage (which was propably not relaxed any longer due to the very cold water) before starting the ascent in CWT.

Looking forward to hear from you guys.
Thanks to you all!!

Regards

Marco http://www.freediveritalia.it

Hi Marco

I've been dealing with lung squeeze for a long time, and I can say that I'm still fighting with it. At least now I won more battles

I think that you read all the answers, and have a good idea of what to do, but let me tell you what things in your dive, in my opinion, resulted in the squeeze.
1) A personal best doesn't matter. My PB in CNF is 48, but I got squeezed on a CNF dive to 35. (The reason: My PB was after a month of daily training at depth).
2) Full exhale and reverse packings at depht (even 2 meters) can result in lung squeeze. It's better to train at FRC (less stress for pulmonary vasculature)
3) Multiple deep dives. In this case "deep" is relative. For some divers it's 30, for others is 60. As you had this problem at 42, you can try hangings at a shallower depth
4) Cold. Definitely cold induces easily lung squeeze. There are a lot papers describing pulmonary edema in swimmers and SCUBA divers, and cold water increases the chance. Also, you were shivering wich increases tension on your chest wall and decreases compliance.
5) Contractions. Contraction at depth create a huge pressure gradiente and (at least in theory) that will end in a pulmonary edema
6) Strong pulling. For the same reason of shivering, full tension on chest wall.

I know you're freediving frequently, and doing stretching so you don't need more advice on that.

I too hope to see you next year in the paradise.

 

[Giobbi]

How dangerous is squeeze, longterm?
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[picasso]

Frank, nice description and explanation. Giobbi very good question. One of our divers hurt trachea many times and now he spit blood regularly. Dunno about lung squeeze.

 

[m_cosentino]

Dear Frank,

thank you for the detailed answer!
I'll try to keep in mind every advice that you gave me and I'll also try to improve my dry training exercises with reverse packing and lung stretching.

It is true that I've been training at depth almost every week-end (2 days per week) in the last 3/4 months and I've found that cold at depth is (at least in my specific case) highly correlated with such a kind of problem and also with additional difficulties in EQ sometimes.

For example in "paradise" this year, where the water is at constant temperature of 26 deg. in April, I've done several dives below 50/55m and I've never get any squeeze issue....even if I was coming from the winter season with a training mainly based on pool+dry+yoga exercises, so my lungs and my body in general were not used to hydrostatic pressure as they are now.

However, since it is not the first time that I get squeezed, I think that at this point Giobbi's question is THE question

Frank hope to see you soon as well.
Give my regards to Cristina and to your doughter!

Marco

 

[fpernett]

Thank you Marco for the kind regards.

I forgot to add extreme lung packing as a risk. This issue need more investigation to define exactly what is "extreme" lung packing, but I think is related with the pressures generated on the airway. That's why some people can pack a lot without apparent damage.

Agree with all, Giobbi question is the big concern. At this moment there is no significant evidence...but there is some cases of fellow freedivers that had to quit deep freediving due to repetitive lung squeeze. And I think there is chronic lung damage with repetitive episodes (but that needs to be proved).

 

[Giobbi]

Thx for all answers, interesting for sure.

One thing that may be worrying is all the scars generated by squeeze - if there is blood there is a wound.
Scars on trachea maybe not so dangerous (Or?) but scars in lungs would be more dangerous? I mean in theory the scars would lower the lungs capacity to absorb oxygen (since scars are just tissue)? Like having severe pneumonia multiple times (may have the same affect, scars)? So when you get really old you would have lungs like a pigeon... : )

Would you say that the following is true:
Foamy light red color blood = lungs squeeze?
Regular red color blood = trachea squeeze?

 

[picasso]

Maybe some medical machine could find something. X-ray photograph doesn't show anything special, no old scars. I would believe that lung tissue has ability to recover to some level? I don't think we will suffer with respiration problems when we get older . Freedive increases lung capacity regardless some squeeze. Huge paching could have more negative impacts.

 

[picasso]

Would you say that the following is true:
Foamy light red color blood = lungs squeeze?
Regular red color blood = trachea squeeze?

I'd say yes. True.

 

[Giobbi]

Thx Picasso, have you done a X-ray?

Agree, lots of max packing seems to be challenging in my opinion..

 

[picasso]

Yes, I had my lungs "x-rayed" and no squeezes were visible.

 

[timm]

Hey, Hey,

Good thread, I have had a couple of squeezes and this open discussion is very useful.

On the different blood different squeezes

Would you say that the following is true:
Foamy light red color blood = lungs squeeze?
Regular red color blood = trachea squeeze?

I'd say yes. True.

Not sure about this, I have had very bright vibrant red blood from what I am certain is lung squeeze, from the bottom and middle part of the chest / lungs. Maybe wrong, just my experience if it helps.

From my perspective I reached 50+ in 1 year of starting diving and have only been to 55 over the next 3 years, a couple of squeezes and I think adaption is a big part, I need to spend more time at depth . I also can get much more pressure feelings in FRC than deep dives, so dont find it that useful (probably would if I could spend lots of time rather than a weekend here and there).

I am planning on going backwards 10 - 15m in my CW depths and start working on better Eq (mouthfill) and spend more time at depth to let my body adapt to the depth 2m by 2m's.

Tim

 

[fpernett]

The main difference between trachea and lung squeeze is hypoxemia (desaturation).
I'm afraid that a normal X-Ray or CT will not show the damage on lung vessels
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[fflupo]

for me the stretches are very important to avoid to get squeezed :-(

i start doing normal warm up stretches of the torso every day, like hanging down exhale getting up straighten inhale, this kind of exercises, even on neg / pos. packs they help a lot to adopt to the pressure


wolf

 

[m_cosentino]

Stretching and Yoga exercises are important not only to prevent squeeze...probably most of you already know but have a look at this:

EFFECTS OF YOGA POSES AND BREATHING EXERCISES ON VITAL CAPACITY IN A HEALTHY MIDDLE-AGED MAN | Cardiopulmonary Physical Therapy Journal | Find Articles at BNET

Background & Purpose: The Supplement to A Normative Model of Physical Therapist Education: Version 2000 lists yoga as an accepted instructional objective for strength training, flexibility, relaxation, and stress management. Although literature supports efficacy of yoga with patient populations, the literature is lacking relating specifically to physical therapy intervention. Several studies have shown increased vital capacity related to yoga. These studies' durations have ranged from 6 weeks to 1 year, with yoga sessions ranging 40 - 90 minutes. Our study measured the effect of selected yoga poses and breathing exercises on vital capacity. If selected yoga poses and breathing exercises accomplishable in 1 5 minutes daily can increase vital capacity, such a program could be a viable intervention for persons with compromised pulmonary reserve. case Description: A healthy 42 year old man was instructed in 5 yoga poses (asanas) and two yoga breathing exercises (pranayama) by a physical therapist trained in yoga. The subject performed the program 6 days a week for 10 weeks. Measurements were taken at the initial session and at the end of 10 weeks. Measurements included: 1) thoracic excursion measured circumferentially on the thoracic wall at the axilla, xiphoid process, and midway between the xiphoid process and navel; 2) side bending and forward flexion tape-measured on the thoracic wall; and 3) vital capacity measured with the Chest Test Spriometer (VacuMed; Ventura, CA 93003). Outcomes: At the end of the study, the subject's vital capacity increased from 3.93 liters to 4.43 liters, a net gain of 0.5 liters or 9 %. Changes in thoracic expansion and flexibility measures were as follows: circumference at axilla: 7/12 inches; circumference at xiphoid process: 1/4 inch; circumference midway between xiphoid process and navel: 1/3 inch; forward bending: 1/3 inch; side bending left: - 1/3 inch. Side bending right was unchanged. Discussion: This study indicates vital capacity may be increased utilizing yoga. Small changes in thoracic cage measurement may indicate thai the yoga based breathing exercises (pranayama) were the primary agents of change rather than the poses (asanas). The breathing techniques in the study involve full use of the diaphragm and abdominal muscles. Training these muscles may result in increased vital capacity over time.

 

[stingaree]

...
I'm afraid that a normal X-Ray or CT will not show the damage on lung vessels
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there wasn't any scar visible on either X-Ray, nor CT after my lung ruptured, collapsed and healed. Lung squeeze was one of possible suspects for the incident.

Picasso, do you guys freedive Slapy down to 50+ metres? That's bloody hardcore stuff!

 

[Bill]

Thanks for the thread Hawkeye.

This has been a problem for me off and on since the series of operations that kept me out of the water a few years ago. Some strange things are going on with my diving. The strangest of them all is the fact that for three seasons, I'm limited to 45-50 meters when the sun is closer than 92 million miles and 70 when it isn't. Before you laugh too loud, there is also a correlation amongst distance, volcano activity and the quality of the air I breathe.

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that one big mouth-fill is not a good idea. I.E. if I bring up air for every clear, I cannot get to 'squeeze depth'. If I fill my mouth on the surface, empty my lungs (through the nose) and slowly descend past about 15 meters, I can almost guarantee a squeeze.