lung squeeze problems, looking for advice

[ploum]

I've discovered Uddiyana Bhanda after reading this thread. If I understand it well, it means pushing your diaphragm in your chest as much as possible.

The strange thing is that, for me on dry land, it means increasing the negative pressure in my lungs.

1) I exhale forcefully then reverse-pack
2) I push my diaphragm into my chest as much as possible. I can feel the negative pressure on my trachea. It's even visible that the trachea is going deeper in my ribs cage.
3) Without taking any air, I relax the diaphragm and let it down, pushing gently my abdomen lower :*my trackea goes up and I feel less pressure.


What does it means ? That I don't understand Uddiyana Bhanda ?

 

[cdavis]

UB stretches the diaphragm, so that it will deflect more when you descend, effectively reducing your RV and increasing the depth at which you can equalize. You are correct that while doing UB, it increases negative pressure. Some care is needed, as it is possible for the negative pressure to cause injury, i.e. don't overdo it. Be especially careful with reverse packs and UB. UB is normally done as a dry exercise. You can do it underwater, just be careful. Also, making the same movements while descending seems to increase equalization depth for me. Not sure exactly how or why that works.

Connor

 

[laminar]

A couple of quick thoughts on squeeze and adaptation:

* There is nothing to suggest that a linear depth progression of 1 or 2m makes any difference in terms of preventing squeeze. (see my next point below)

* Most of the factors mentioned can play a role and unfortunately, I am speaking/guessing from experience, they often happen in combinations that might be random! For example: body temperature, descent speed, contractions at depth, your fitness level, the elasticity and strength of your diaphragm, chest wall elasticity, tracheal flexibility or sensitivity, your mental state (fearful or relaxed), your current and lifelong history of diving, time at depth, equalizing method, equalizing comfort, equalizing skill, body posture, vasoconstriction, effort during the dive, lung volume, air pressure in lungs (packing), and existing medical conditions. I've probably left out a few. Oh yes: volcanic activity, smog, allergies, emotional state, and how many coffees you've chugged in the past hour. :inlove

* It seems to work for me that gentle and regular FRC dives to relatively shallow depths (10-25m) without negative pressure dives of any kind, make a huge difference in my avoidance of squeeze. This is also combined with: staying warm, being fit (good lung function and circulation), relaxed and slow descents, working on making equalizing as relaxed as possible, avoiding exposure to contractions at depth, diving as much as I can, and never packing. I can't say which of these factors is the biggest one, but so far so good after about 8 years since my last major squeeze.

* If you've had squeezes, my best advice is to really back off and take a holistic approach. In my experience, few "progressions" in the sense of the word that we as human beings would expect results from have worked. For example, if I was off from diving for 6 months straight, I would want to dive for 3 months straight in the 10-20m zone on FRC with some subtle and gentle variations on lung volume, physical states and the variables mentioned above before even thinking about any kind of real "progression" for depth. I have done this in the past and it worked, amazingly well (for me). Taking things slowly can teach you so much about your own freediving approach and how your body and mind react to it.

* This is what works for me, in general. I know other people who seem not to need much acclimatization (10-14 days), like to use negative pressure warm-ups to accelerate things (don't work for me very well - they just seem to stress my body too much), and then they are going super deep. But very often the story of what they do when not training for deeper stuff is left out. I only really know what a handful of good divers do when they are between competitions or deep diving trips. I know of two who do lots and lots of diving in the 20-40m range and seem to remain perpetually ready for deeper dives to more than double those depths. And in fact, they improve because of it. Personally, I would still be more cautious. I think the only time I've really felt I could dive to any depth without fear of squeeze was after about two months of diving every 3-4 days and with long diving days.

I'd love to hear what a typical years' worth of diving looks like from your perspective and compare that to squeeze incidents.

Pete

 

[Giobbi]

Great input, thanks Laminar.

p

 

[cdavis]

My year's diving is way too erratic and a recipe for squeeze. Virtually all diving is exhale, so squeeze depth is well within my capability. Most years there are a couple of long summer diving trips, 5-10 days, depth ranging from 20 to 90+, During the rest of the year maybe 3 or 4 widely scattered days diving 70-90+ ft in fresh water. Training used to be regular, 3 days a week, in a pool, but in the last 6 months very erratic, no buddy.

I'm susceptible to mild squeeze and complete healing takes a very long time. Last time was about May and I'm not fully recovered yet. Even with some symptoms still, I'm getting deeper. Not sure if this is physiological adaptation or just learning to better relax. I was really surprised last trip to be diving deeper than the level that squeezed me a few months previous without consistent training. Still can't mouthfil, so equalization near my limit is tricky.

Connor

 

[Delfino]

Informative thread.

 

[Bleeth]

Just had some kind of squeeze (lungs or trachea ?) today at 10m (please don't laugh ). I'm a recreational spearo so i don't go too deep (PB 28m). Last summer the same thing happened to me when i was doing some shallow no fins dives, so i did not dive at all until this summer (had about ten squeezes in my life, only one serious (the 1st one)), so this year i was trying to go real slow with the depth increasing, diving for a month and a half now to max 14m, and now this shit again. Am i doomed to fish at 2 m to prevent traces of blood in my saliva, must say i'm pretty depressed right now.

 

[picasso]

Zdravo, my buddy has very similar problems. He had first squeeze very serious about 2 years ago and he is even able to get squeeze after max STA. He went to the doctor to examine him after a squeeze and after more tests they said it is nothing serious. So he use to dive to max 15 m and some times he got squeezed a litlle and doesn't care too much. He enjoys his diving so he does it :crutch.

 

[Bleeth]

Does diving without fins and wetsuit increase the probability of the squeeze ? I've noticed i'm fighting contractions on the bottom much easier if i have my full gear on. If i dive just with my mask and snorkel every contraction on the bottom feels like a potential squeeze.

 

[Simos]

Does diving without fins and wetsuit increase the probability of the squeeze ? I've noticed i'm fighting contractions on the bottom much easier if i have my full gear on. If i dive just with my mask and snorkel every contraction on the bottom feels like a potential squeeze.

I don't see why fins would make a big difference, other than the fact that if you are talking about the same depth you'd be less likely to get contractions with fins on as it'd be easier to get to the target depth (ie less CO2 etc).

The wetsuit on the other hand does seem to make a difference. I don't get big contractions but I have heard others mentioning that even in static the suit seems to help with contractions. Also the fact that the suit keeps you warm also helps prevent squeeze as the cold is a contributing factor.

You don't mention anything about a weight belt but I am assuming that when you use a suit you also use a weight belt, allowing you to fine tune your buoyancy better and hence get to the target depth with less effort - so that might be helping too.

 

[Giobbi]

I have made some huge progress in my squeezing problems. Used to get squeezed on every deep dive.
I notised, in depth, that the first contractions were big "inhales reflexes". I have trained a lot, on land, to change that to get the contractions in stomach instead, even made them exhale instead. this works about 90%. Sometimes do make inhales ones but they are way softer now.

I also stopped packing (will starta again when needed). I used to pack for 45m cnf last year, no warm up. This year i have done 54m no pack ( i do pack 5 packs just to get the sensation of full a inhale), no warmup. This in freezing water of Sweden. I should also add that i can do mouthfill now, if i remember to take it in time, not to deep/late and keep the pressure up.

When i fail, and if i get squeezed, it always, always stress related. If im stressed, or having mouthfill problems, i can't fokus on contractions, relaxation, and get squeezed.

So stay cool, know your gameplan when you decent in to the depth, it will make you relaxed..

My 2 cents..

 

[timm]

Hey bleeth,

I think CNF can make it easier to squeeze, for me the additional effort to get down using your arms means I need to concentrate on relaxing my shoulders more in the glide, and I find eq a little more challenging.

The other thing with nf is that when you turn at the bottom and are the most empty, you will arm stroke and need to be careful as there is a lot of upper body movement which could cause squeeze.

I am Hopng to have the same story as Giobi as have stopped packing and concentrating on mouth fill, it's nice diving to stop packing and not be chasing that elusive 1 or 2m more.

Tim

 

[sai]

A common advice to avoid squeeze problems is to keep your head in a neutral position. But how am I supposed to know when to slow down the freefall? Twice I almost hit my head while descending to the bottom. :duh

 

[solera974]

Hello,

it seems I'm continuing a thread that has closed for some time.

If anybody is still tuned, I'd like to share some infos et get some feedback. I won't qualify myself as an experienced freediver even though I have been diving over six years now and I'm a regular in the ocean and do on a regular basis some pool training.

I've had a mild lung squeeze last week and this has surprised me. I've been doing some intensive swimming for more than 10 years, I would not be the last in a run session of 50 mns and I'd say I'm in an excellent physical condition for a guy of 34 years.

I had a squeeze in a shallow water session (9m in average on a 2 hours session) while looking for some new shooting angles. I didn't realise I had a squeeze before getting out of the water even though I felt my dives were tirefull. I drove myself to the emergency after having coughed some bright red blood for 10 mns (that stopped by itslef)

To make it simple, could anybody tell me whether this is going to stop me from freediving (which may be hard to digest) or even doing intensive sports (which is going to blow my brain away) ???

Thanks

 

[Steinar]

Hi Solera

Im not a doctor but I think you will be ok.
I have had squeeze several times and staying out of the water and taking it easy seems to be be the only cure. Some say that beeing squeezed one time, makes you more vulnerabel, but I dont know if there are any studies supporting that.
I believe that doing to much strength exercise can make you more prone to getting sqeezed. I took a guy freediving that had done a lot of weight training and underwater rugby. He got sqeezed from a 16 m dive.​

 

[Nick_V]

Many thanks 4444, a few days ago i did my first 50m dive and got squeezed. I had many contractions on the way up and i was definitely to tense. I mainly put it down to the fact that i overdid myself as i was aiming for 45 and blacked out on the surface (oops, this is the first time that this has happened and i've learnt a valuable lesson).

 

[solera974]

Rello,

thanks for replying. Could you tell me a bit more about your lung squeezes. How many have you had, how the followings occured etc.

This one being my first, the doctor tells me to get on complete rest for two weeks (actually three 'cause I'll have to get through a scanner and cardiologist before getting back to some sports).

After a week, I still have a light pain in my chest. How do you assume I can prevent getting another one in the future ?

 

[xristos]

I haven't had any squeeze cause I am cautious and dont push things, but I have few questions.
Is there any way to know you are close to it and turn for the surface? The feeling of getting squeezed lungs and thoracic cage is a sign you are just close to RV and not squeeze?

After some a bit deeper FRC dives (when they are just a bit less volume than pasive exhaIe) get feeling like i want to cough but not intense just a bit. Never seen blood ,after coughing on my hand, although the cough urge is really mild.

I do FRC dives everyday for one month every day with about 5 dives a day. Do you think I would be better with different schedule like more dives each day and less days?

 

[cdavis]

Thought I had replied to this, sorry for the delay.

Doing frc dives everyday is the right way to adapt to exhale diving. I wish I could schedule that. It produces a lot of protection against squeeze, I think by thickening the walls of the alveolar blood vessels making them better able to stretch and accomodate more blood shift, also more resistant to damage. How many dives a day I don't know. Search Laminar's posts, he mentioned somewhere how many dives he found effective.

The cough results from negative pressure that forces blood serum from the alveolar blood vessels into the alveolar air space. First you get a mild urge to cough, next is a harder urge and some phlem. Push deeper, something will tear and you get blood.

The feeling of tightness around the chest and thoraic cage is a function of decreasing chest size with depth, chest flexibility and relaxation. If you are feeling very tight in the chest, you are probably well beyond RV. When those factors bring on a squeeze is highly individual and varys a lot from dive to dive. I've done dives that were deep for me which felt great and got thoroughly squeezed on the next, indentical dive. You just have to work out for yourself what it feels like and what is too much

Some threads you should read:

Exhale diving: theory and practice, a laymans view.

Exhale diving for the "average" diver

Exhale diving and blood shift, musings.

I might not have the titles quite right. you can do an advanced search for threads by cdavis, key word "exhale". that will bring up all three.

Good luck with your diving, I am envious.

 

[xristos]

Thought I had replied to this, sorry for the delay.

Doing frc dives everyday is the right way to adapt to exhale diving. I wish I could schedule that. It produces a lot of protection against squeeze, I think by thickening the walls of the alveolar blood vessels making them better able to stretch and accomodate more blood shift, also more resistant to damage. How many dives a day I don't know. Search Laminar's posts, he mentioned somewhere how many dives he found effective.

The cough results from negative pressure that forces blood serum from the alveolar blood vessels into the alveolar air space. First you get a mild urge to cough, next is a harder urge and some phlem. Push deeper, something will tear and you get blood.

The feeling of tightness around the chest and thoraic cage is a function of decreasing chest size with depth, chest flexibility and relaxation. If you are feeling very tight in the chest, you are probably well beyond RV. When those factors bring on a squeeze is highly individual and varys a lot from dive to dive. I've done dives that were deep for me which felt great and got thoroughly squeezed on the next, indentical dive. You just have to work out for yourself what it feels like and what is too much

Some threads you should read:

Exhale diving: theory and practice, a laymans view.

Exhale diving for the "average" diver

Exhale diving and blood shift, musings.

I might not have the titles quite right. you can do an advanced search for threads by cdavis, key word "exhale". that will bring up all three.

Good luck with your diving, I am envious.

Alright, thanks for info and taking the time to answer cdavis.
Indeed I enjoy my diving every day and can't seem to get bored at any point. Yesterday there was a group of 2kg ~ amberjacks I counted 19 fish and they came in 2 successive dives at touching distance, loved it.

So its not squeeze just yet. I can dive no problem today then right? When I started this type of diving my thoracic cage felt pressured even during the next day. Do you think you get faster adaptation with longer hangs at the bottom? I will search that post about number of dives. Read already big frc topic and other topics as well.

No problem on delay it is forum not business