My Method Wrong Or Right

[Dylan Baker]

I have another question growing up my method for holding my breath and for freediving was taking in 3 deep breaths in a row followed by 3 short breaths in a row with no pause inbetween breaths I dont do this fast but slow to make my heart rate go down I figured the slower my heart is the less oxygen it would burn up wich would make me beable to stay down longer Iwould breath like this for about 3-5 minutes and then go down or just try to hold my breath my best time static is 3 and a half minutes and my best dive is only around 70 feet. . Is this hyperventalating or is that only when you breath in and out fast?
Is my method that I use good or bad. Another question that I have is that I tryed packing and I could do it 60 times, what I did was inhale as much as I could then when I couldnt take in any more I sucked air in through my mouth like a straw, I then would let the air go into my mouth then I would squeeze my cheeks [face cheeks HA HA] and push the air back into my lungs I did this 60 times, through the 60 times that I did it I never tryed to breath any fresh air in at all only used the air that I breathed in from the first atempt. IS this right or wrong. Well to all of you that try to help me god bless. All I can say is that I trying to read all the forums and figure out what is best and I can trully say it is kind of overwhelming. I dont want to hurt my self and I didnt know there was this much complicitie about freediving well thanks to thoes who try to help.

Dylan B.

 

[ickledevil]

Hi Dylan
Basically everyone has a different 'breath up' routine for me I take LONG breaths in hold for 5 LONG breath out I guess I try to spend 8-10 secs breathing in 5 hold and 8-10 out again.
Your method could be hyperventilation, although this is fast breathing really, try breathing your way for a longer period of time without holding your breath, if you get light headed or dizzy your hyperventilating, I think anything more than your normal everyday breathing rate could be seen as hyperventilation. Also try breathing from your stomach... when you breath in force you belly out before your chest then from the bottom of your chest to your shoulders, you should find you can breath deeper like this. As for the packing it sounds like your doing it right, 60 sounds a lot though try a bigger deeper breath to start with, I think a large breath followed by a couple of seconds packing works best (max input min output) For packing you should fill your lungs then mouth, by sucking in, this mouthful should then be forced into your lungs using your cheek and throat muscles, then your mouth should be empty, suck in a new mouthful do this over until FULL!.
Your right about slowing your heart rate, lots of people use Yoga etc, but just find somthng that works for you, I just concentrate deeply on each breath then when holding, each heartbeat. I know Freediving doesnt sound this complex! but theres a lot of things disscussed INDEPTH here, just try and enjoy your self and you will progress naturally. The two things I think you should do before freediving above all else are:
1; Learn about SWB and dont tempt it (see MANY posts!)
2; Find a dive buddy preferably experianced (try the buddy pages)

Good luck and dont be afraid to ask!
Joe

 

[andrsn]

thanks joe!

i've been spearfishing for quite some time now, and i still find out things that should have seemed logical many moons ago! can't tell you how amazed i am about your tip on "belly first". i've always kept it sucked in. i feel i can get in about 20% more! seriously!!! i owe you one.


tip to dylan:

and i know this is oversimplified, but then again simple things amaze even the most experienced as i just have proven. but, find a really really good snorkel. one that has minimal air resistance but still has a nice purge valve. there are a few out there, but i couldn't reduce my heart rate significantly until i found a snorkel that would let me suck in a good deal of dry O2.

later,
anderson

 

[crazyfrenchmen]

snorkel

Which snorkel do you use?

 

[ickledevil]

No probs glad to be of help, let me know how you get on.
Another thing to consider is the 'volume' of your snorkel Use the lowest that you comfortably can, too large a volume and half your breath up is 'dead' air youve breathed out that hasnt left the snorkel... i.e. no or little O2 Too small volume (mainly diameter) and you put resistance on your lungs this is good for training but not so good when trying to get the maximum volume of air in.
Cheers
Joe

 

[Cliff Etzel]

Going out on a limb here

After having attended Kirk Kracks Performance Freedive Clinic over the weekend, I am now very concerned about mucn of the advice that is being given on the forum.

Don't get me wrong, I believe the exchange of information is important to this sport, but I now see much of the information being given as being borderline dangerous.

I talked with Kirk to some extent about how our community of participants here on Deeperblue.net has grown, but he expressed some concern's over much of the training advice that is given freely - much of it he considers dangerous. And after having attended the clinic, I have to agree with him.

I promised him that I wouldn't divulge the training techniques he gave to those who paid good money to learn.

And I am going to abide by that promise.

For those of you who have the opportunity to, I STRONGLY recommend that you attend the clinic - not only will it improve your freediving, both competitive and spearfishing, but it could very well save your life one day.

Yes it is expensive - but what is your life truly worth.

This might rub some of those who feel that Freediving shouldn't be regulated, and I was one of those people - until this clinic. Now I feel that training should be compulsary to those who participate in freediving.

Let the flaming begin...

 

[andrsn]

flaming

sorry cliff, i'm as straight as my spearshaft.

i'm saving like crazy in order to have a chance to make his class in miami next february. i've opted to take the entire class instead of just the saturday. i'm starting to believe it would be worth it. i just really want to get into a pair of strong carbons before then.

sounds like you're going to have a tough time in the future reading some obvious mistakes and not being able to really get into the do's and don'ts. bon chance and we're all anxious for your story.

by the way, the SNORKEL i use is the Tusa Hyperdry. it's the only one that's been able to let me get comfy on the surface.

later,
anderson

 

[Ossi]

Irresponsible

IMHO it's totally irresponsible not to correct obviously hazardous advise, especially from an editor!

Do you really think that those courses would lose customers if you would tell about the content? I think the only obvious reason to attend a course is to learn by doing what you can't learn by reading.

And then there's the majority (I quess) of us who are never going to attend a course anyway. Let us ignorant people drown, or what?

ossi

 

[andrsn]

whoa there, partner

Ossi,

with all due respect, i think you need to take another, more conservative approach to this forum. deeper blue assumes that we are intelligent enough to see all this information for what it's worth. merely suggestions and techniques that work for those individuals posting on this forum. yes, these threads are interactive and it may seem people are eager to take new ideas into practice, but no one is sought to have these added to their bibles(figure of speech).

the comment i directed towards cliff was personal and a joke. obviously cliff has a little compassion for this forum and was kind enough to point out that there are better and more effectively safe techniques out there. you should be smart enough to realize that if you are going to seriously get into freediving at considerable depths, you should seek out the advice and techniques of professional freedivers.

so, don't you dare go off on one of our guys that helps bring the rest of us the opportunities provided here at deeper blue.


anderson

 

[Cliff Etzel]

LOL, andrsn!

Ossi - I understand you POV on my last post, but as andrsn pointed out, If you are truly serious about this sport, then do yourself a favor and take the clinic.

In no way am I trying to be elitist in any form. But if you made your living off of something that you were a professional in and then after I assimilated that information I gave it away to others for free, wouldn't you feel like someone was taking $$$ from your pocket?

It would be the same as stealing.

There is also an integrity issue here, and if Deeperblue is to maintain the highest level of integrity in the sport of performance freediving, all of us should feel compelled to maintain that high level of integrity.

Finally - I can respond to your final statement of

Let us ignorant people drown, or what?

with this answer:

Ignorance is no excuse for not finding the truth

 

[laminar]

Sorry Cliff but your cute reply "ignorance...etc" does nothing to help the 16 year old diver in Michigan who can't afford a trip to Miami and a clinic from Kirk and Brett.

I often wonder what would have happened if I had never met the Vancouver freediving group and Eric had offered to lend me his gear and his freediving knowledge. Probably I would be surfing the net, trying to glean information from deeper blue and other sites. But would I be practicing the sport safely? :hmm

If Performance Freediving is trying to keep the things they teach from the rest of the freediving community, then I think they are on the wrong track. Information is notoriously difficult to keep to yourself. A successful business gains its success not by the service or the information they provide, but by how they provide it. I've heard much positive feedback about their clinics (Cliff, for example and Erik Young, and also many local divers) mostly because of the attention Kirk and Brett pay to the divers in the clinic and the advice they give that is tailored to each person and their diving experience and skill. That's what you should be paying for, the one-on-one attention. Kirk and Brett apply their years of experience to novice freedivers. You can't get that kind of individual coaching from a website or a book.

Anyone can tell you how to stay safe if they take the time to explain it properly (it is possible to do it over the net). But it takes the qualities of an experienced freediver, a good teacher and a professional coach to help you become a freediver with poise, confidence, grace and skill. For that you need Kirk and Brett, Umberto, Aahron and MT, Eric, etc... Or you can try to learn on your own through trial and error.

I think that if Performance Freediving wants to attract MORE business, it could benefit from supplying the freediving public with its safety guidelines for free. How about a monthly safety feature like an "Ask Kirk and Brett about safety?" column where some of the common questions of deeper blue get answered by the experts?
After all, they need novice divers to survive long enough so they can eventually take their performance clinics, do they not?

Kirk's criticism of some of the discussions and advice given freely by divers on this website indicates to me that there must be a lack of clear, expert knowledge in the greater freediving community if he's so worried. So maybe it's time for some guidance by people with years of freediving experience like Kirk.

I agree with your idea that freedivers should be certified ONLY if it's free (or very cheap) and widely available. Keep it voluntary. If you pair up with a buddy, you can ask them if they know how to rescue you (did they take a basic safety course?). Then it's up to you whether or not you want them as your dive buddy.

I hope my comments are taken as constructive.

Pete

 

[Cliff Etzel]

Although I see where you are coming from, the issue of personal responsibility needs to taken into account.

It's a catch 22 situation from my position.

My reply wasn't meant to be "cute" - it was a response to someone who came across as wanting someone else to do all the work and then reap the benefits of another person's efforts in seeking the information.

That seems to be the trend nowadays and I have grown weary of it.

An informational site like Deeperblue walks the fine line of accountablility and liability when information like this is dispensed as it is on the forums.

To expound on your example - the 16 year old looking for freediving information will find some information, but look at the big picture in this? You were 16 at one time - did you make very good decisions, even when you were given the necessary information on anything? And did you apply it or do it your way, regardless?

I know that I was young and cocky at that age and thought I was invincible- well, too many young wannabe's have ended up drowning in their parent's jacuzzi's because they wanted to see how long they could hold their breath - even after repeatedly being advised against the practice. I have heard too many tales of how only part of the information was acquired without the proper professional instruction to show how to correctly apply that information.

I know my mortality, but many aren't willing to think that deepely - it's too much work for them (as is many things - at least they think they are)

If someone is really compelled to freedive, why should they get the information the easy way - I am all for helping someone get started, in fact after discussing it over privately Kirk, He feels my practical experience and the additional information I acquired from the clinic puts me in a position of teaching intro level freediving courses, which I am about to begin doing through a local dive shop.

On the flip side, I am beginning to define the boundaries by which I am willing to dispense more advanced information without proper instruction. I will be taking within the next year a full instructor level course to be fully accredited to teach freediving to anyone who wants to learn.

Too many people feel that life owes them something instead of having to work for it. They complain that "It's too difficult to get there from here."

I have a quote from a book I read recently that put's this topic in perspective I think:

Life is difficult. This is a great truth, one of the greatest truths. It is a great truth because once we truly know that life is difficult - once we truly understand and accept it - then life no longer becomes difficult. Because once it is accepted, the fact that life is difficult no longer matters. - M. Scott Peck, M.D. - Author, The Road Less Traveled

I had to work hard at learning what I know. It will be difficult to study to become an instructor.

LIFE is difficult.

Maybe it should be more difficult to acquire the more advanced information - it might just make the sport a little safer.

Who knows...

 

[Lou]

Reading this thread finds me finding good and bad points on all sides, we musn't find ourselves thinking that Kirk, Terry Maas, our homegrown talent - Howard Jones and team at freediver, are all knowing! I'll bet that they are the first to admit that they are all continuously learning and we have to have forums like this so that we can each evaluate the information given, ditch the rubbish and learn from others.

There are probably kids reading these pages now who are getting a kick from our enthusiasm for the sport, learning how to start, buying a mask, snorkle and fins and in a couple of years will be breaking records.

I agree training must be given but you've got to try a sport and decide it is for you before you go spending money on courses.

It's up to us to give the best information and advice that we can to eachother thats been learnt through solid in water time and has been proved to work so that these beginners are armed with the basic knowledge that may save their lives.

We've obviously got real experience on these pages and as I've seen, if someone comes up with a wrong idea or dangerous technique they are soon put back on track - that is how learning is done and better it be done shoreside before they get in the green and lumpy. People shouldn't be put off from shareing information, but it must also be policed by the more experienced
among us.

Thats it - ranting over!

 

[crazyfrenchmen]

information

The beautyfull thing about information is that you can give it away to anyone you want and you'll still have it. Holding back information on the other hand is not a good approach on forums. Off course, if the only think you're looking for is to market your product, then forums are a good way to touch the public, but i dont believe people are here to see adds, i thing they're here to get advice.

 

[Erik]

Learning

This subject is analogous to a lot of other situations in life if you look at it broadly.
I do not believe that witholding information serves any purpose, except to boost the power of the holder, and to disempower or opress the would-be student. It's what Dictators do to keep the masses from becoming educated and thinking that maybe there is a different way to exist. I wont get any deeper into that, but the reason I brought it up is that it's got to be one way or the other.
You either give information freely, or you withold it for your own purpose, or because of some misdirected purpose, thinking that you're helping people by not giving them opportunities until you think that they are ready to experience those opportunities. Granted, the person with the information thinks that he (or she) is doing the "right thing". If you remember, Pinochet and Hitler sincerely believed that what they were doing was the "right thing". One's belief that he is doing the right thing is never enough. A mandate from the masses is a good start.
Making drugs illegal will never stop people from taking drugs. Banning pre-marital sex has never and will never stop that activity. Not telling freedivers techniques on how to improve their ability and safety will not stop freedivers from diving. Freedom of speech, and open discussion are the hallmarks of a truly free and evolving society. Education about everything we can imagine is the answer. Teaching each other how to use the information and learning self-discipline (personal responsibility, Cliff) are key points.
I would like to see the stats on freediver deaths before people like Eric Fattah started giving information on teachniques compared to now, or 10 years from now. I remember when Mayol and Pellizzari were viewd as some sort of super-humans or freaks of nature. The reason for that is because nobody was talking about the process of freediving, methodically and physiologically, among other things. Is this what we should revert to? I don't think so, and consider the fact that it will NEVER happen. We will communicate through this medium or another, helping and warning, teaching and learning.
There will always be masters and students. There may always be Masters like the ones who taught martial arts only to a select few, sworn to secrecy to protect the amazing powers that one could have if only you would go to them. There will also always be Masters who give their "secrets" freely and willingly for all to see. This removes the mysticism from the equation and usually upsets those that would retain that information, ususally for their own purposes.
Whew!
Masters like Kirk Krack, Le Master, Pellizzari etc, have no need to worry about losing their power, whether they believe it or not. We can communicate all day, but there is no communication that can match one on one personal training. Kirk could publish his Instructor Book on the internet for free, and people would still line up for his clinics. I knew all the techniques before I went to Kirk's clinic, but I never dived as well as I did after the clinic. I talked to Peter Scott about "Being in the presence of Greatness", and how it has turned a pack of Canadians into some of the best divers in the world. They dive with Kirk and Eric all the time, and they are all very good divers.
Real Masters have nothing to fear.
With apologies for the post length, and respect for all,
Erik Young

 

[laminar]

I like the way Lou puts it.

If I want to try baseball the worst that can happen is that I get beaned in the head with the ball.
I can join a team where a coach can help me stay out of harm's way.

If I want to try freediving (at 16 years or 46 years old), I can jump in the water, hyperventilate, dive alone, go too deep, etc.... and possibly kill myself. Since freediving is not a popular sport like baseball, it would perhaps be wise to have basic safety info widely available and easy to find.

The difference (obvious, I think), between SCUBA and freediving, is that I can watch the big blue and then go buy a mask and snorkel and fins for $50 at most sporting goods stores and jump in the water.

You are ultimately responsible for your own safety, but if you choose to look for guidance, it should be out there somewhere. So I think Deeper Blue is doing fine in the way we help each other out. But if the experts are worried about the quality of the posts here, then they should share their knowledge, too.

Pete

 

[laminar]

well said, Erik!

 

[Dylan Baker]

hola

I would just like to thank everyone for replying to my thread. I did not meen to start any trouble and hope that everyone one can get along lol. And my personal insight to all this that you guys are discussing is, I am very greatfull for all the information that I have gotten off the forums. Some of the information I totally understand and some of it I wish you guys would explain a little better but beggers cant be choosers so I will learn what I can from all of you guys. But I think the only way to get really good at freediving would be to go to a clinic or have someone teach me one on one all the tips on how the sports works. But again I trully am very thankfull for all your guys tips and warning about the sport there is alot of do nots that I have learnd in a couple of weeks of reading the forums. If there is one thing that I can stress that I have seen since I have been reading the forums and I know that I might be alittle slow some times lol. But when people try to give help, warnings, tips, does, dont, if they could always try to explain in detail what they are talking about I think it would help alot of the new guys out. And I understand the more experienced free divers understand what others are talking about but you guys have to remember there are beginners reading these forums all the time so again Please try to explain everything in detail. Well thanks to every one for replying to my post and sorry its so long. GOD bless Dylan B.

 

[andrsn]

can-o-worms

i think we need to call that ethics hotline!

now it's Cliff "Machiavelli" Etzel! i guess my initial intentions were to redirect the heat from cliff. i still don't think that just cause he took kirk's course he's obligated to conform all these posts to kirk-ology. safety, on the other hand, is a different story. but, it's still a grey area when it comes to reading about someone packing 60 times before a dive when you just read that he's not too experienced at it. i don't think kirk has anecdotes for all these scenerios.

i think the issue is becoming how people are interpreting these advanced techniques and if they are being practiced correctly.


mi dos pesos,
anderson

 

[Cliff Etzel]

Kirk-ology non-conformist here...

What the clinic did for me was really bring to light the FULL aspects of this sport. When you watch someone samba in a controlled environment like we all did during our first day of pool training, you realize that maybe you should reconsider some of the things you do and have said.

What I have noticed is that many who have given freely their advice had good intentions in trying to promote the sport as much as possible. But as I have been doing lately (quoting adages), the adage "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" may seem somewhat appropriate here.

We are now going through a growth step here on the forums where we are all realizing the enormous impact we are beginning to have on the sport.

Like anyone who has come to self-realization, I may have gone a little overboard on this, but like any checks and balance, it needed to be said so that at least the discussion could be started to work through the real issues. And would lead to a middle ground that was more balanced as a result.

And I think that we are all a little wiser for it.

I know I am. I may not initially like some of the flaming that I get for speaking my mind, but I am also willing to really examine myself and ask the question "Is that person seeing something I'm not?"

This meta-talk has become crucial in my reason for freediving now. It is mentally healthy and it allows me (or anyone for that matter) to check my psychological and physical well being not only at the moment I take my last breath to do a dive, but in my everyday life.

I encourage any of you to express your concerns and opinions about these things - only then will we get to the level of safety and mentorship we want for our sport.