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mysteries

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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I alos sink Alun, and breath up through a snorkel, but just cannot pack through it! I am vertical in the water and keep a hand on the float line. One thing about vertical breathing is that I find one must pack to get even a normal lung volume before a dive.
And my heavy monofin situates me vertical no matter what I'm wearing, especially in fresh water.
Cheeers,
Erik Y.
 
packing through a snorkel is just a matter of practice. eventually you'll learn to do it really fast. the important thing i found is to take a massive normal breath first, so that you have less packing to do.
i think what you said about packing when vertical is definitely true. overall it will probably take longer to reach the state of having fully packed lungs.
when using my snorkel, my legs are quite heavy and they do dangle down in the water when wearing a 3mil, but my torso remains at surface level. when wearing a 7mil, my whole body is pretty much flat in the water.
cheers
alun
 
Several comments.

Lately I have been diving either in:
A) 3mm top, no pants/trousers, and 2kg neck weight
B) no suit, 2kg neck weight
C) no suit, no weight

In each case, the monofin is heavy, and my legs are extremely heavy, and so I end up in a vertical position, breathing through my snorkel. This makes breathing a bit hard, and I have to pack just to get a normal inhale. Reaching a full pack is impossible, which is why I do a little trick. Once I can barely pack anymore, I flick my ankles, pushing the monofin forward, which pops my legs to the surface, putting me in a flat position. My lungs are now so buoyant that I stay in that position long enough to finish a full pack.

Concerning diving heavy or diving light, it depends on the target depth. Imagine it this way. Suppose you choose a terminal velocity of 0.8 m/s in Case A, or 1.2 m/s in Case B. In case A, you need to use much more energy to get down. In case B it is very easy to get down. Now, suppose the target depth was 60m, and terminal velocity is reached at about 35m. In one case you must overcome a 'negative' buoyancy equivalent to 0.8m/s (case A), the other case you must overcome a negative buoyancy equivalent to 1.2m/s (case B). Of course, the ascent in case A is easier than in case B, but that ease only lasts from 60m to 35m, and after 35m the ascent is pretty easy in both cases. So the penalty for the heavy dive is a difficult 25m in the start of the ascent--no big deal.

On that note, I have found that doing a 55m dive is easiest with an insane amount of weight -- 5kg or more, doing one monofin kick and sinking the whole way! However, for obvious reasons this would not work for a deeper dive.

Imagine now that the target depth was 100m. In the earlier example, in case A the whole ascent is easy, and in case B the ascent from 100m to 35m is hard (a distance of 65m). So in case B, you must have a hard ascent for the immense distance of 65m--why? Why are you putting yourself through such a torture? Because you wanted to save a few kicks in the beginning. In case B, being heavier, you probably only saved about ?3-5 kicks with the monofin...? And yet you have to pay the penalty on each of the 60+ strokes on the ascent.

So, the deeper you get, and the longer you sink for, the more important it is to have a terminal velocity below 1 m/s. You can imagine in the extreme case of a 1000m constant weight dive, saving a few kicks in the beginning would not make up for being very heavy on a 965m ascent.

In that sense, the deeper you go, the less weight you should use. Pelizzari probably recommended little weight because he was diving quite deep himself, and maybe it never occurred to him that shallower divers need more weight.

The question now is this: for an immensely deep dive, say 200m+, what is the ideal terminal velocity? At 0.8m/s, the ascent is easy, but the descent takes longer, and at 0.9m/s, the ascent is a bit harder, but the descent is a little faster... etc... For such a deep dive, you can neglect any extra energy in the beginning of the dive, because the dive is so deep those few kicks are of no consequence, and all that matters is the terminal velocity. Of course, the ideal terminal velocity also depends on the stiffness/shape of the monofin and the technique used on the ascent.



Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 
Snorkel packing

Erik

If you have problem doing the snorkel pack, try first to pack without a snorkel while the lips are not sealed but the jaws are closed. You sort of pack with your tongue and the air slips in between the teths.
You will make a sound like TS, TS, TS..... everytime you do a pack.

...then you can do the same with the jaws open..

..AND WITH A SNORKEL

..and then you can pack in the same way trough your nose!!:)

I hope this helps.
 
I can pack through my nose, and can pack through a snorkel, but the volume that I can pack using the snorkel is so small that it would take me over a minute to fully pack my lungs. Conversely, I can pack massive amounts with my mouth in a short time.
But I'll keep working on it!
Alun, my legs will float in the sea with a 5mm suit and mono, but not in fresh water. I do miss the feeling of floating face down horizontallly, but that's the price I pay for using a monofin.
Cheers,
Erik Y.
 
Peter (derelictp).... what is your terminal speed? i'm curious to know, since you dive in a similar way to me. mine is almost always 1.0m/s, but i think it may be beginning to creep up towards 1.05m/s, possibly due to the gradual compression of my 3mil. i've given it a real beasting this summer :)
i may need trim off some lead if i keep speeding up, because i don't like to do more than 1.0m/s in constant... because it makes equalisation harder.

that's a good way to learn the technique Peter - i just tried it. it seems to simulate the action well.
 
hi

Eric for spearfishing would it be better off to be much heavier than freediving beacuase the depths are no deeper than 25m. You say that on the ascent it only really makes a difference below 35m as to how heavy you are, so with spearfishing im never that deep anyway. Maybe I could throw on 15lbs of lead with my 3.5mm suit :hmm

cheers
 
hmmm.... i think i've now convinced myself that my suit really is beginning to compress.... did another fairly deep dive this morning and i reached a terminal speed of 1.10m/s.... my speed is definitely creeping up. plus i sank from 16m.... i'm sinking shallower too. strangely, it was the fastest ascent i've ever done for a deep dive.
i think it may be useful to bear this factor in mind when weighting yourself for performance dives. i will now probably make another neckweight of 0.8 or 0.9kg. i'm not sure if that will bring my speed down to 1.00m/s, but best to do these things in small increments.... so i don't get any nasty surprises! :)
 
Peter and Alun,

You described your technique for freefalling with your hands at your sides . Thats what I usually do, but recently I've tried a very tight streamline, arms out, head below the arms, minimum cross section. It takes some O2 to maintain the position, but not too much if I stretch before diving. Velocity seems much higher, both in the way it feels and in observing other divers (we are diving around 30 m). Have you tried it both ways? Has anyone done any careful comparison of different streamlining styles? Does the best technique vary with the depth you are diving? I would be very interested in the experiances of others.


Thanks for the info

Connor
 
yes, i've tried that.
i'm quite flexible in that way. i can touch the bottom of my left shoulder blade with my right hand, going over my head, but personally i definitely prefer the relaxed approach. i think having arms outstretched may work ok when wearing no suit or a very thin suit, but i really doubt its effectiveness with a thick suit. around here we dive in thick suits most of the year... so it makes sense for me at least to keep diving one way.
consider a 50m dive
with arms by your side at 0.9m/s you hit the bottom in 55 secs
with arms outstretched at 1.1m/s you hit the bottom in 45secs.
so, you have to ask yourself what is greater:
1. the O2 used during additional 10secs of relaxed sinking or
2. the O2 used in the arms and shoulders during the entire 45sec descent.
it's not an easy question to answer, but my guess would definitely be #2

best technique vary with depth... yes, i definitely believe that.
 
Alun,

A 50m dive for me takes between 1'35''-1'40''.

Descent: ~49-52sec
Ascent: ~45-48sec

I don't know what you mean with terminal velocity but my lowest speed on descent is around 0,90m/s (~10-20m) and the fastest is around 1,15m/s (~40-50m).
 
thanks Peter,

that confirms what i expected really. but it sounds like your descents are just marginally faster than mine. my initial sinking speed is barely 0.8 and i never go faster than 1.1.

terminal speed (or terminal velocity) is just your fastest sinking speed. the term is mainly used in skydiving, but i use it in freediving also.

i made a slightly lighter neckweight yesterday and tried it out today. it made no noticable difference to my descent profile or terminal speed, so i may as well keep using it!
 
Andrew, how do you stay afloat during breathup with all that weight on?
 
hi

Are you reffering to me ;)

If so I dont do Freediving like the up and down the rop thing, so I dont really do serious breathe ups. When spearfishing Im mostly moving along and just take 3 quick breaths before diving. But seriously I dont know how you guys dive with less than 10lbs even in a 3mm suit, heck with no suit on I throw on 6lbs. Must be just me cos I dont like kicking against bouyancy :confused:

cheers
 
Originally posted by ivan
But seriously I dont know how you guys dive with less than 10lbs even in a 3mm suit, heck with no suit on I throw on 6lbs. Must be just me cos I dont like kicking against bouyancy :confused:

Bouyancy seems to differ a bit from person to person and there are a few factors that affect this. For instance (and don't take this as an insult Ivan!) fat is positively boyant while muscle is negative. I guess that the size of your lungs would matter too as well as your bone structure.

An older UW-Rugby player I know told me that when he was in top condition (less fat and more muscle) he was quite negative while his buddy (who was in equally good shape) was positive, so if one started at the surface and the other at the bottom of the pool, they would meet in the middle! :)

So Ivan, you probably have large lungs and a light bone structure! Myself, without a suit I am neutral around 10 meters down.

// Johnny
 
Alum,

Thanks for the reply. The suit comment makes sense. I'm in Florida and avoid any suit that restricts my lungs or shoulders. I will be experimenting with different streamlining techniques in the pool (about 70 m dynamics) and will report what I find out.

Ivan,

it sounds strange, but different weighting really works. I always used 6 lbs or more spearing in 20-50 ft (no suit). My lungs are a little larger than average, light bones and I'm skinny. Neutral about 20-25 ft. Recently I've started reducing weight while spearing, down to 5 lbs. It seems to work better and I might go lower.
Diving down a line with a hooded vest, I wear 2 lbs to be neutral at 33 ft, with a 3/2 full suit, 4 lbs is equivalent. That works much better for pure freediving in deeper than 20 meters.

Connor

.
 
hi

Beaky not insulted at all man ;) But to tell you the truth I am actually really skinny im 180cm tall and only 65kgs, where as my mate I go diving with is 180cm also but he weighs 84kgs with quite some more fat, I try to eat more so that I can put on weight.

I only have 4.8L lungs last time I checked a few years back in a dive medical. And yes I do have a light bone structure.

Anyways On the weekend I was spearing with my 3.5mm suit and 13lbs belt and I was sinking from about 5m down then when I would turn at around 12m after stringing a fish My omer millenium comps felt really soft even though they are supposedly Omer's stiffest plastics :hmm I think I might take a lead off when trying in deeper water I think those fins would bend like noodles coming up from 20m.

cheers
 
Remember Sebastien Murat's rule: If you have a samba/BO at the end of your dive, and your legs did not 'fail' during the dive, then you were not blood shifted enough.

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

Is this also true for dynamic apnea ? In that case I'll have to read a bit more about blood shift and how to induce it in a pool as I recently had a samba doing a dynamic and my legs weren't failing.
 
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