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New FreeDiver In Training
- Thread starterMorg
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Thread Status: Hello
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Ok. so a purge looks like a hyperventilation. It isn't one because you are specifically attacking C02 concentration after breathing-up and saturating. Hyperventilating is simply stirring air, supposedly to flush your system with 02, and is an unsafe practice.
And I will acknowlege that there are a handful of people who can breath-hold for 8min+ using techniques ranging from no pack or purge to pure 02breath-ups but as far as deep swimming goes, packing is an effective way of bringing enough air with you on a descent, I am not certain why that isn't self-evident. 12liters of air with a saturation will take you farther and longer than 10liters of air with a saturation......
And I will acknowlege that there are a handful of people who can breath-hold for 8min+ using techniques ranging from no pack or purge to pure 02breath-ups but as far as deep swimming goes, packing is an effective way of bringing enough air with you on a descent, I am not certain why that isn't self-evident. 12liters of air with a saturation will take you farther and longer than 10liters of air with a saturation......
I think you are mistaking. The meaning behind breathing fast is irrelevant. If you are lowering your blood's CO2 concentration by getting rid of more CO2 than you are creating (assuming this is not post-excertion ventilation) you are hyperventilating. It's a word with dirty connotations but it's true. There is nothing wrong with adjusting your blood CO2 concentration before a dive, as long as you adjust it the right way. The dirty connotation of hyperventilation came from poeple using it to make the dives easy by getting rid of too much CO2 and thuss endangering themselves. It is possible for most people to lower blood CO2 levels by breathing even as little as 4 long breaths a minute (though I hate putting a number in that statement). Most people might indeed endanger themselves after a certain amount of purging. Getting a better CO2 tolerance would be a better way than hyperventilation to increase dive time and safety (note that too much tolerance could also be a risk, but not common for beginners).lungfish said:
Regarding saturation, artirial blood is usually around 97% saturation anyway. It is possible with a proper breath-up to raise venous blood O2 saturation, but that will always come at a cost of getting rid of CO2 and that's hyperventilation (which, can be done to an optimal point one will have to discover). The problem with getting rid of CO2 is that it actually helps you to maintian cosciousness in lower O2 concentration AND it helps you saving oxygen by working with the dive reflex. For a beginner I would advice to not 'huff and puff' when diving, a slow breath-up, and maybe a few 'natural breaths' should be enough.
Unless you spend less oxygen when having 10 literslungfish said:
. Per Eric Fattah's usual example, would you wanna dive with 100liters of air? What kind of weight would you need and how would you bring it up? Don't forget packing can induce blackouts on their own. The dive response is also conditioned by the amount of air one would have in his lungs. There is an optimal amount of air, and there are different functions of the body one can play to this advantage, there is more than just one right way to dive, or so it seems now. And from what I've seen, when people pack for diving it is usually either from bad habbits or for getting more air for equaliation, packing for increasing a 30 meter dive from 3 minutes to 4 minutes is usually not the choice that wins in the long run.Anyway, this thread has started to relate to things too advanced for a begginer's forum... I'd be afraid some would learn the wrong things from it. Let's keep it to the basics.
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I didn't say that purging was a bad idea, I suggested that describing it and teaching it on this thread probably wasn't a good idea. Purging isn't hyperventilating though the technique seems the same, it is for a different purpose and done in order, after saturating. I use purging myself...
and I pack - but not excessively, there are optimums as you say. I use it for equalizing, as you suggest and also for increased duration because I am not a competitive diver.... and there are definitely limits to its effectiveness.
and for you Newbies.... take a course like I did and learn how to do all this and why with a coach looking at you while you do it. Reading about it on a forum is not an education to stake you life on. www.performancefreediving.com
There are also many styles of diving and some have suprizing benefits within their limitations. For example, negative pressure diving or diving while saturated but with empty lungs is an effective technique and probably a more efficient way to dive under 50meters. But nobody is negative pressure diving 100meters.....
and I pack - but not excessively, there are optimums as you say. I use it for equalizing, as you suggest and also for increased duration because I am not a competitive diver.... and there are definitely limits to its effectiveness.
and for you Newbies.... take a course like I did and learn how to do all this and why with a coach looking at you while you do it. Reading about it on a forum is not an education to stake you life on. www.performancefreediving.com
There are also many styles of diving and some have suprizing benefits within their limitations. For example, negative pressure diving or diving while saturated but with empty lungs is an effective technique and probably a more efficient way to dive under 50meters. But nobody is negative pressure diving 100meters.....
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I agree, because that's hyperventilating and an easy way to over hyperventilate.lungfish said:
I see you decided to stick with the faulty mantra instead of dealing with the explanation in the post above. To each their own, my problem is that you are teaching this to beginners (that purging isn't hyperventliation).lungfish said:
I don't. I feel it's totally unnecessary for me, CO2 tolerance (and relaxation that is still improving quite a lot) serve me so much better nowdays, and it's still not the CO2 that makes me start ascending (and I am also a recreational freediver like yourself).lungfish said:
I agree, courses can take you quite far quite fast quite safely.lungfish said:
Have heard of 70m+ unassited exhales by seb, and although I don't know if his 100m~ dives were inhale or exhale, I have a strong sensation it didn't include packing. Considering the amount of people dedicating themselves to exhale diving over the world it is a little too early to say in my opinion.lungfish said:
Anyway, we're digressing again, this is not the right thread to mention those techniques.
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Deepthought sez "...my problem is that you are teaching this to beginners (that purging isn't hyperventliation)."
It isn't because it is part of a larger process and takes place after a breath-up, it would be hyperventilating if that is all one did before diving...
There are different schools of diving, to be sure. The breath-up, purge, peak and pack is the method currently taught at PFi and while science and individuals may have a lot of different aproaches to diving, this one is the one I use.....
I also practice 02/C02 Tolerance tables and the combination with the breath-up I use seems to be effective
Last time I was in Port Douglas, Sebastian hadn't been below 50meters using neg. pressure techniques.
I agree that we shouldn't be discussing these techniques on a public board.......
It isn't because it is part of a larger process and takes place after a breath-up, it would be hyperventilating if that is all one did before diving...
There are different schools of diving, to be sure. The breath-up, purge, peak and pack is the method currently taught at PFi and while science and individuals may have a lot of different aproaches to diving, this one is the one I use.....
I also practice 02/C02 Tolerance tables and the combination with the breath-up I use seems to be effective
Last time I was in Port Douglas, Sebastian hadn't been below 50meters using neg. pressure techniques.
I agree that we shouldn't be discussing these techniques on a public board.......
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Hi Michael,
Let me see if I can explain the saturate, purge thing. I think (could be wrong) that you are associating both terms with old (and incorrect) ideas. The fast in, slow out pattern slows down the heart and is a very relaxing technique (especially if you restrict exhale with your throat/tongue rather than diaphram), great for getting ready for a dive, and will provide as much 02 saturation as can reasonably be obtained. However, it results relatively high C02 levels because the breathing rate is so slow (I use 1 sec in, 4 sec pause and 20 sec+ out, also the inhales are not forced). For me the ability to be comfortable with more than 20 sec exhale is a reliable signal that I am ready to dive again. The purge is not more than 20 seconds of relatively fast, deep breathing, 4-5 breaths (not forced, though) to blow off some C02, but not a huge amount. The trick is blow off some C02 but not kill your relaxation or raise your heat rate much. Technicly, any breathing rate above the minimum is "hyperventilation", but virtually everybody uses some. What is popularly thought of as "hyperventilation" usually involves huffing and puffing for much longer than what I call purging. It is rightly considered dangerous. I'll readily admit that drawing the line between dangerous and not dangerous is tricky, the say the least.
I don't agree that we should not discuss this stuff on DB. In my posts, I try to caution new divers, but it is really their responsibility to get themselves fully educated. That's what the forums are for IMHO. Of course, if you can take a course, that's the best. It's just not always possible.
Lungfish, I'm missing something. You quoted breathing cycles and time per cycle. Multiply it out and it is a pretty long interval between dives. What did I miss?
Connor
Let me see if I can explain the saturate, purge thing. I think (could be wrong) that you are associating both terms with old (and incorrect) ideas. The fast in, slow out pattern slows down the heart and is a very relaxing technique (especially if you restrict exhale with your throat/tongue rather than diaphram), great for getting ready for a dive, and will provide as much 02 saturation as can reasonably be obtained. However, it results relatively high C02 levels because the breathing rate is so slow (I use 1 sec in, 4 sec pause and 20 sec+ out, also the inhales are not forced). For me the ability to be comfortable with more than 20 sec exhale is a reliable signal that I am ready to dive again. The purge is not more than 20 seconds of relatively fast, deep breathing, 4-5 breaths (not forced, though) to blow off some C02, but not a huge amount. The trick is blow off some C02 but not kill your relaxation or raise your heat rate much. Technicly, any breathing rate above the minimum is "hyperventilation", but virtually everybody uses some. What is popularly thought of as "hyperventilation" usually involves huffing and puffing for much longer than what I call purging. It is rightly considered dangerous. I'll readily admit that drawing the line between dangerous and not dangerous is tricky, the say the least.
I don't agree that we should not discuss this stuff on DB. In my posts, I try to caution new divers, but it is really their responsibility to get themselves fully educated. That's what the forums are for IMHO. Of course, if you can take a course, that's the best. It's just not always possible.
Lungfish, I'm missing something. You quoted breathing cycles and time per cycle. Multiply it out and it is a pretty long interval between dives. What did I miss?
Connor
Hi cdavis,
I suppose I am thinking about my own pattern which involves at least twice the duration of the previous dive on the surface before diving again. That is above 25m. If I am below that, then it is a minimum of 2.5 times the dive duration on top. So, if I am down for 2:30(often considerably longer), I am on top for 5:00 (min) or 15 cycles minimum. Often longer if I am diving deeper. If I am swimming around chasing dolphins or whatever than I stay topside even longer breathing up. I often go 7-9min between dives. I suppose that if one was simply diving on a rope for practice and very inactive except when diving straight down and back again, one could manage with a dozen breaths but I think the same surface duration rules apply based on depths achieved.....
I practice more-or-less the same purge technique and only for a half dozen cycles or so. As for packs, I don't do more than ten or so.
The main thing that makes the difference is diligently practicing C02/02 Tolerance tables and doing an effective breath-up when one is in the reflex.
I am not a competitive diver and I guess I am not talking about diving practice on a rope.....
I think what is missing in this discussion is the idea that we are talking about more than one dive. Say twenty or more progressively deeper dives in an afternoon, along with some deep swimming (extreme snorkeling?) And the deeper the diving or the longer the dive, the fewer dives per hour can be done safely- or effectively using ones full resources and fully preparing for each dive.
Recently there was a discussion about asymptomatic nitrogen build up in deep swimmers... I participated in a study last summer while diving in BC. The indicators were nitrogen bubbles in the blood vessels of the eye. So they took pictures before and after diving and compared them with dive watch data. Apparently they demonstrated in that example that nitrogen buildup was present in those who did not follow a careful regimen of ventilation and breathup for appropriate durations before repeating a dive.
Another point about the breath-up, purge, peak and pack method is that for a beginner who has been properly coached, each section of the method can train him to deal with specific aspects of diving physiology. And a year or two of that before exploring exotic techniques or deviating from proven techniques is a good way to make certain one has learned to tell when one is saturated, what ones C02 tolerance is and how to manipulate it safely as well as how to manage the whole breathing process into apnea while swimming and back again. The whole idea is to train body and mind to work as gauges and sensors that are truly tuned to ones physiology while in the "reflex" and diving safely while swimming deeply....
Also when one purges one can sense tingling in the hands if it is over done, and to counter it one can move some muscles, clench fists etc until the feeling passes......
A good beginner question- what is hypocapnia and what is hypoxia and what does it feel like when you are experiencing either one? Can you sense it, if so, how?
I suppose I am thinking about my own pattern which involves at least twice the duration of the previous dive on the surface before diving again. That is above 25m. If I am below that, then it is a minimum of 2.5 times the dive duration on top. So, if I am down for 2:30(often considerably longer), I am on top for 5:00 (min) or 15 cycles minimum. Often longer if I am diving deeper. If I am swimming around chasing dolphins or whatever than I stay topside even longer breathing up. I often go 7-9min between dives. I suppose that if one was simply diving on a rope for practice and very inactive except when diving straight down and back again, one could manage with a dozen breaths but I think the same surface duration rules apply based on depths achieved.....
I practice more-or-less the same purge technique and only for a half dozen cycles or so. As for packs, I don't do more than ten or so.
The main thing that makes the difference is diligently practicing C02/02 Tolerance tables and doing an effective breath-up when one is in the reflex.
I am not a competitive diver and I guess I am not talking about diving practice on a rope.....
I think what is missing in this discussion is the idea that we are talking about more than one dive. Say twenty or more progressively deeper dives in an afternoon, along with some deep swimming (extreme snorkeling?) And the deeper the diving or the longer the dive, the fewer dives per hour can be done safely- or effectively using ones full resources and fully preparing for each dive.
Recently there was a discussion about asymptomatic nitrogen build up in deep swimmers... I participated in a study last summer while diving in BC. The indicators were nitrogen bubbles in the blood vessels of the eye. So they took pictures before and after diving and compared them with dive watch data. Apparently they demonstrated in that example that nitrogen buildup was present in those who did not follow a careful regimen of ventilation and breathup for appropriate durations before repeating a dive.
Another point about the breath-up, purge, peak and pack method is that for a beginner who has been properly coached, each section of the method can train him to deal with specific aspects of diving physiology. And a year or two of that before exploring exotic techniques or deviating from proven techniques is a good way to make certain one has learned to tell when one is saturated, what ones C02 tolerance is and how to manipulate it safely as well as how to manage the whole breathing process into apnea while swimming and back again. The whole idea is to train body and mind to work as gauges and sensors that are truly tuned to ones physiology while in the "reflex" and diving safely while swimming deeply....
Also when one purges one can sense tingling in the hands if it is over done, and to counter it one can move some muscles, clench fists etc until the feeling passes......
A good beginner question- what is hypocapnia and what is hypoxia and what does it feel like when you are experiencing either one? Can you sense it, if so, how?
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Howdy Connor.
I am well aware of the benefits of this breath-up regarding heart-rate, relaxation and weakening the CO2 trigger a little. Except for packing I used to do it myself. There are also (suspected) aquaired adaptations to hyperventilation, and that makes the issue even trickier.
Purge breathing=hyperventilation. MOST breath-ups infact are a controlled form of hyperventilation.. This issue has been discussed here before actually.
Lungfish, as said, I am also a recreational (inhale) diver who is also very much into serial diving, I am not trying to push a different school of freediving into this thread, I was just trying to get rid of what I consider is a myth.
Since I dislike too long surface intervals (5-9minutes) and that is one of the limitations I put on my dive time I would appriciate it if you could elaborate more about the study you perticipated in.
No offence but I was thinking the same.cdavis said:
True, it is the best way to teach people how to breath-up.cdavis said:
Ok, I will elaborate more on that saturation issue. As stated in the post above and evident from the use of pulse oxymeters, one's artirial blood is already close to 100% saturation anyway with normal breathing, one's venous blood saturation is lets say 40% (encountered this number before). The difference in saturation is the oxygen you use. You cannot get your venous blood to saturate much more, let's say to 60% (encountrered that number before as well) by getting your artirial blood more saturated as it is already (and relaxation and lowering heartrate would get you so far). What I understand usually happens is that getting rid of CO2 raises hemoglobin's affinity to oxygen and therefore less of that artirial blood's oxygen will be absorbed in the tissues, this is why with OVER hyperventilating one would feel tingling, that comes from local hypoxia (and changes in blood vessel dilation). If what you were saying is true, that you are saturating with O2 and also acculmilating CO2 (during the whole process of this procedure, as it can maybe happen in the first few breaths) top freedivers like Eric Fattah would've been ALL OVER this method as this is the optimal way to dive if you got the CO2 tolerance to handle it. CO2 is your friend.cdavis said:
I am well aware of the benefits of this breath-up regarding heart-rate, relaxation and weakening the CO2 trigger a little. Except for packing I used to do it myself. There are also (suspected) aquaired adaptations to hyperventilation, and that makes the issue even trickier.
That is EXACTLY what I was trying to say.cdavis said:
Purge breathing=hyperventilation. MOST breath-ups infact are a controlled form of hyperventilation.
When I said "this forum" I meant the beginner's forum. This discussion does indeed have a warm place in DBcdavis said:
. This issue has been discussed here before actually.Lungfish, as said, I am also a recreational (inhale) diver who is also very much into serial diving, I am not trying to push a different school of freediving into this thread, I was just trying to get rid of what I consider is a myth.
Since I dislike too long surface intervals (5-9minutes) and that is one of the limitations I put on my dive time I would appriciate it if you could elaborate more about the study you perticipated in.
Michael,
What we have (purge vs hyperventilation) seems mostly sematics and shades of meaning that are tough to convey in a thread. I see your point about the beginner forum, its well taken, missed it the first time. I have a hard time differentiating the emphasis of the different forums and suspect a lot of newbies do too. That's also how threads get hijacked (My apologies Morg).
Lungfish,
Your dives are a lot longer that mine. Now the long interval fits. One question, do you sometimes feel your dive reflex slipping away with long (9 minute) surface intervals? I suspect that slips up on me with more than 4 minute intervals in dynamic practice (1.5 minutes down). Shortening my interval seemed to help performance.
Connor
What we have (purge vs hyperventilation) seems mostly sematics and shades of meaning that are tough to convey in a thread. I see your point about the beginner forum, its well taken, missed it the first time. I have a hard time differentiating the emphasis of the different forums and suspect a lot of newbies do too. That's also how threads get hijacked (My apologies Morg).
Lungfish,
Your dives are a lot longer that mine. Now the long interval fits. One question, do you sometimes feel your dive reflex slipping away with long (9 minute) surface intervals? I suspect that slips up on me with more than 4 minute intervals in dynamic practice (1.5 minutes down). Shortening my interval seemed to help performance.
Connor
Hi Connor,
Re: losing the reflex with long surface intervals..... I don't seem to, probably because I breath-up through my snorkel with my face in the water. In fact, I lose time out there - sometimes 3-4hours- and I am certain I am in an altered state.
The main thing is staying methodical with surface durations in between swims. Deep swims and long swims require longer recovery and one can't purge nitrogen buildup from deep swims without adequate surface ventilation. So that should probably be the primary factor determining surface interval even over breath-up time.
Lungfish
Re: losing the reflex with long surface intervals..... I don't seem to, probably because I breath-up through my snorkel with my face in the water. In fact, I lose time out there - sometimes 3-4hours- and I am certain I am in an altered state.
The main thing is staying methodical with surface durations in between swims. Deep swims and long swims require longer recovery and one can't purge nitrogen buildup from deep swims without adequate surface ventilation. So that should probably be the primary factor determining surface interval even over breath-up time.
Lungfish
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cdavis said:
Hey its fine I'm learning while you guys are dicussing. I am holding off on my breath holds a bit now because I don't want to over train myself. So feel free to post in here as much as you want. These guys have helped me out a lot in this thread.
Thanks,
Morg
Wow, a lot of confusion. Hopefully, I can assist in clarifying some things, especially so newcomers don't further get lost in the confusion. First of all recognize that we are using key words to refer to fundamental concepts in freediving, and wherever possible these words have been taken from medicine and/or human physiology.
Hyperventilation in reference to medicine and human physiology, "is the state of breathing faster or deeper (hyper) than necessary, and thereby reducing the carbon dioxide concentration of the blood below normal."
Purging, is a word that was loosely employed by PFI, and/or some other freediving members, to refer to one, or possibly multiple, events. Originally, when I was first presented the word by PFI, in the summer of 2002, they used it to refer to deep, relatively fast ventilations recommended to practice just before your final inhale towards the dive. Purging in general means, an action that removes impurities and/or elements. Refering to freediving, the word was employed by PFI to refer to the act of removing CO2.
Under that use of the word, purging, as Michael clearly and accurately pointed out, is exactly hyperventilation. The only reason many students of PFI and other circles come away with that discrepancy, is because most people think of one type of hyperventilation when they hear the word hyperventilate. This is because it is the most noticeably effective practice of hyperventilating and therefore it has unfortunately become synonymous at large in public comprehension. The fact is though, that the definition is clear and precise in its description, that it most dominantly is referring to breathing styles that reduce CO2, and specifically it acknowledge either fast or deep breathing. Schools of thought have chosen to say that you do not hyperventilate, to remove the association with kids panting rapidly and blacking themselves out, and similar breathing and states.
Connor, what you describe does not fit the idea of purging as originally employed by PFI, and to my understanding still employed. Therefore, unless they have changed their use of the term in the last years, according to PFI's use of the term, it is hyperventilation, it is relatively rapid, and definately deep. That does not in any way suggest you can not call your style of breathe-up "purging", but it should make it clear that there is no strict definition of purging as pertaining to freediving.
Hope that helps set this straight. Remember, PFI is not in the business of training people to have precise comprehensions of topics pertaining to freediving. They are focused on achieving the objective of performance in freediving and therefore do not worry over whether all the physiology details are presented to medicinal standards, or whether they are absorbed correctly by students. They teach people to freedive, not to teach or research freediving. If you ask them, they will most certainly admit the same conclusion.
Hyperventilation in reference to medicine and human physiology, "is the state of breathing faster or deeper (hyper) than necessary, and thereby reducing the carbon dioxide concentration of the blood below normal."
Purging, is a word that was loosely employed by PFI, and/or some other freediving members, to refer to one, or possibly multiple, events. Originally, when I was first presented the word by PFI, in the summer of 2002, they used it to refer to deep, relatively fast ventilations recommended to practice just before your final inhale towards the dive. Purging in general means, an action that removes impurities and/or elements. Refering to freediving, the word was employed by PFI to refer to the act of removing CO2.
Under that use of the word, purging, as Michael clearly and accurately pointed out, is exactly hyperventilation. The only reason many students of PFI and other circles come away with that discrepancy, is because most people think of one type of hyperventilation when they hear the word hyperventilate. This is because it is the most noticeably effective practice of hyperventilating and therefore it has unfortunately become synonymous at large in public comprehension. The fact is though, that the definition is clear and precise in its description, that it most dominantly is referring to breathing styles that reduce CO2, and specifically it acknowledge either fast or deep breathing. Schools of thought have chosen to say that you do not hyperventilate, to remove the association with kids panting rapidly and blacking themselves out, and similar breathing and states.
Connor, what you describe does not fit the idea of purging as originally employed by PFI, and to my understanding still employed. Therefore, unless they have changed their use of the term in the last years, according to PFI's use of the term, it is hyperventilation, it is relatively rapid, and definately deep. That does not in any way suggest you can not call your style of breathe-up "purging", but it should make it clear that there is no strict definition of purging as pertaining to freediving.
Hope that helps set this straight. Remember, PFI is not in the business of training people to have precise comprehensions of topics pertaining to freediving. They are focused on achieving the objective of performance in freediving and therefore do not worry over whether all the physiology details are presented to medicinal standards, or whether they are absorbed correctly by students. They teach people to freedive, not to teach or research freediving. If you ask them, they will most certainly admit the same conclusion.
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