New rules discussion

[DeepThought]

I also think that lung squeeze should be disqualified.
But I think that even if the SP was:'I'm ok, sign, cough, spit on ref's hand' some cases are still hidable. Also I think I've read here that blood can apear later after the dive and not straight after, not sure if that's true though.
I think that there's a damage potential if the athlete tries to keep it as a secret and not asking around researching to avoid the next time... and the cumulative damage may be bigger.

 

[Jason Billows]

That`s a tough one. It would be so difficult to monitor. Perhaps a penalty could be given if someone spits up blood, but that would be the only way I think you could determine is someone has been squeezed.

Even then, someone could be spitting blood because of a sinus squeeze. I tend to get minor sinus squeezes now and then and end up with blood in my spit draining from my sinuses. They`re not always painful, but the blood is noticable. Would that disqualify me?

 

[pat fish]

I hate to bring this thread alive again but I was reading some old discussion about lung squeeze and someone (I think it was Peter Scott) suggested that lung squeeze should be penalized in the rules.

.
Very interesting topic- shouldn't this be worth a thread of its own?
In my opinion there is the same problem as with sambas: where is the limit between no squeeze -small squeeze and big squeeze. Small lung squeezes are often not recognizable for other people, sometimes not even for the person itself. Sometimes the person tends to hide it as well. If one can find an objective test to it, it would be a good thing to take into account for disqualification. On the other hand I like the idea of self-responsibilty of each diver. One thing is clear: it will be more of a topic with deeper and deeper dives of people with few adaptation and that's what we see these days.

yours
Pat

 

[immerlustig]

hi jome,

yesterday i tried to post a poll about exactly that (but couldn't figure out how to do that :hmm ). maybe someone could help me out there?

i'm absolutely amazed that many regard a samba or blackout as something dramatic (which, of course, it is), but spitting blood is generally accepted as part of the game.

i see it as a proven fact that any depth that is reached with spitting blood can also be reached without spitting blood. it might just take a bit longer, that's all.

the freediving development that i can observe in my neighborhood is one that causes me some grief. people mostly come to dive only to break their pb's. in 1 or 2 weeks, usually. not much priority is given to any other aspect of a freedive. only the gauge rules.

for sure it's everybody's own decision, but i would certainly see it as reasonable and also sensible to try to induce some more common sense into freediving. therefore accepting/ tolerating lung squeeze (or trachea squeezes, whatever) should be discussed. and for the benefit of all eliminated.

telling everybody to never dive alone and in the next sentence having a laugh about a bo or some specs of blood doesn't do much to beginners, other than get them to do the same.

i like to see people going as far as they can, but i am also concerned when competitive attitude starts overriding common sense. i just don't like to see people around me bleeding all over the place.

to me it's just damn stupid und completely unecessary.

just my opinion...

roland

 

[tylerz]

Lung squeeze, even minor ones, can be detected through a forceful maximum exhale. At the end of the exhale you will hear bubbling/raspiness. Whether there is blood in it could take a little while to arrise, but one could check an athelete for the fluid in lungs as I described and if that occurs, then have them on a 20min wait for judging with blood checks every 3-5min.

 

[DeepThought]

Being asthmatic I can produce those sounds (or similar whizzing sounds) due to the narrowing of my lower airways regardless of diving. Though I think one should dive while having an asthmatic episode as I suspect it decreases the ability of the lung vessels to stretch and may cause a squeeze.

 

[pat fish]

Lung squeeze, even minor ones, can be detected through a forceful maximum exhale. At the end of the exhale you will hear bubbling/raspiness. Whether there is blood in it could take a little while to arrise, but one could check an athelete for the fluid in lungs as I described and if that occurs, then have them on a 20min wait for judging with blood checks every 3-5min.

good idea but not exactly true i guess. in deeper dives there is plasma entering the lung without capillaries or alveoli beeing ruptured. this may cause the raspiness in breathing sounds as well. so is this a lung squeeze or not? it's a question of definition.

yours
pat

 

[immerlustig]

my concern is not at all how to judge that (a solution will present itself) but rather that freedivers are permanently injuring themselves in training and accept that as normal.

interesting also, that there are hardly any posts about this issue, but everyone is writing like mad about the samba/bo situation.

i think that a bo/samba is far less dangerous to my health than a bleeding lung. i've heard freedivers say things like "no problem, i'll be in the office the next months anyways. so no diving'.

bad!

roland

 

[DeepThought]

i've heard freedivers say things like "no problem, i'll be in the office the next months anyways. so no diving'.

So now you're claiming sitting in an office for a few months is not a reason to kill yourself?

 

[immerlustig]

not really. i'm sure you get the idea, though.

i still would be interested to hear some opinions.

bring it on, guys.

roland

 

[Jason Billows]

I think that part of the problem stems from the fact that most divers don't realize the potential consequences of a squeeze.

Many divers have had minor squeezes, or know of others who have had them, and it hasn't slowed them down much. However, very few divers have first hand knowledge of how serious they can be.

It's kind of like telling a kid not to touch the hot element on the stove. They may or may not listen, but if they do end up touching it, they'll know for sure why they shouldn't have.

I also think that many divers have the mindset of "I did X meters yesterday so I can do it today". The problem is that if they're cold, didn't stretch enough, etc, and don't listen to their bodies they can get squeezed, sometimes without realizing it until after the dive.

 

[jome]

Lung squeeze, even minor ones, can be detected through a forceful maximum exhale. At the end of the exhale you will hear bubbling/raspiness.

Hmm, this is not at all uncommon for me. Never had any blood though...So I'm getting squeezed all the time?

Anyway, when writing the original post I was thinking on the lines of clear and visible amounts of blood being spit out, a serious squeeze that leaves no room for interpretation. The kind I'm talking about could not possibly be mixed with squeezed sinuses. I'm not sure you could hide that kind either, as the coughing doesn't seem that voluntary.

 

[tylerz]

Seems there was a bit of misinterpretation of my post... I wrote that lung squeeze can be detected... I didn't say "nothing else is the cause of the symptom". If you have lung squeeze it will be detected by the symptom I mentioned. To confirm that the symptom is lung squeeze, I mentioned you would have to do further steps and I gave an example in that post. Esentially I was stating that lung squeeze would not go undetected if you do a maximum exhale. Get it?

So, yes what I said is true, unless someone can give evidence of a lung squeeze that on max exhale did not produce the sympton. And, no I am not saying that if you have wheezing all the time then you are constantly lung squeezed.

Tyler

 

[jome]

Sorry I should have read you post better. But all the same, it's a relief to know I just jumped a head and figured you guys have some how determined that that's a definite sign of a squeeze.

True, if you make someone who has been squeezed severly forcefully exhale, I don't think there's any way he could "hide" it.