New rules discussion

[subaquaticus]

Maybe the protocol should be only the strict protocol AND NO MORE SIGNS THAN THAT.
If the athlete does for example 2 ok signs he/she is disqualified.
Simple; Breath, Do your 3 tasks and no more and you are ok.

During the preliminary briefing in Nice about these new regulations, Bill Strömberg made a bright intervention explaining that we were allowed to do as many OK signs as we wished...

For example, according to him - if I am not mistaken - if an athlete does an OK sign before taking off his/her mask, he can do a second one after removing it, and then saying I am OK, and then doing again many other OK signs...

I am amazed at the huge amount of energy spent by our Swedish friends with these regulatory considerations...

Some spend their energy breaking records and some other inventing highly tricky regulations :martial to bar the first from recognition :ban , don't they ?

Why making so much fuss about this f--g Surfacing Procedure ? What is at Stake ?

What I like in freediving is the word FREE, the nature, the blue ocean, swimming among multicoloured fish... escaping our overregulated modern world and going back into our Mother Nature's bosom...

In freediving, you can reach kind of nirvana, feel the sweet pressure of the water on your chest...

After intense feelings underwater which bring you close to heaven, it is a real pain in the ass to play the performing dog during 40 seconds before an assembly of facetious judges... For me the real challenge should take place underwater...

 

[cebaztian]

Thanks Sebastian for this most constructive comment
But there was no anti-americanism/anglosaxonism in my remark..

I was just trying to be funny - deep down I just wished I was french

I am amazed at the huge amount of energy spent by our Swedish friends with these regulatory considerations...

You are leading by far in number of contributions to this thread. Strange since you mainly consider freediving a road to nirvana

Some spend their energy breaking records and some other inventing highly tricky regulations :martial to bar the first from recognition :ban , don't they ?

I think you are really on to something here. That must be the reason for people to try to find just and safe rules. Right now our main concern is how to stop TOM from passing 10 minutes. Can we find a rule for that?

Why making so much fuss about this fucking Surfacing Procedure ? What is at Stake ?

Just keep following the debate Subaquaticus, and visit some more competitions and you will soon understand. Good luck.

Sebastian
Sweden
(sorry for all the irony)
PS. And my appreciation for all the brainstorming ambitions. The current SP protocoll probably found its source in the brainstormings of the "Blue paper" writers some year back.

 

[Jason Billows]

Hi Sub,

If freediving's primary attraction for you is the connection to the ocean then simply dive and don't compete.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. Freediving for me is not first and foremost about competing, but if you do choose to compete you have to acknowledge that it will be a different experience with rules and procedures required.

Still, I hope the new rules are changed and we can find better surfacing protocols that more of the freediving community can embrace.

I was glad to hear that the AIDA subcommittee responsible for the procedures is continuing to review everyone's comments and feedback.

 

[tylerz]

What I like in freediving is the word FREE, the nature, the blue ocean, swimming among multicoloured fish... escaping our overregulated modern world and going back into our Mother Nature's bosom...

In freediving, you can reach kind of nirvana, feel the sweet pressure of the water on your chest...

After intense feelings underwater which bring you close to heaven,

What does this have to do with competitive freediving? I likewise treasure the activity similar to your description. But isn't it a bit far-fetched to project that picture as having a a relevance to participation in the competitive activity. You show up and have to focus on a dive time, judges, a depth limit, line violations, scuba safety, coaches, depth guages, etc... Umm... Free? Really!?

 

[subaquaticus]

If freediving's primary attraction for you is the connection to the ocean then simply dive and don't compete.

I went to Nice on the occasion of the CIPA Open ; it was for me the first occasion of the year to dive in the Sea... Taking part in the two trainings and in the comp permit me to enjoy this... and to gather some tips on Dahab...

Competition in freediving is for me not a target in itself but a means to access some techniques which would permit me to freedive in nice places...

 

[jome]

Hey, come on.

First of all, I never thought I'd step in for a swede, but really, that was an unnecessary generalization. I count 2 with the possibility of a third swedes discussing in this thread there's just as many form many nations.

Besides, what does that have to do with anything.

Subaquaticus, I really appreciate your effort and comments, but if you don't like this conversation and find it useless, and if there's nothing more to contribute than insulting nationalities and opinnions, please just move on.

I'm a bit of a geek...A nerd if you will, with very limited access to water. But I'm very enthusiastic about diving and that's why I sit here all day writing this crap. That's my excuse anyway. If you feel like you want just to be part of mother earths bosom or whatever, then what's your excuse? Taking part in a silly internet forum is not mandatory, in fact many many serious freedivers choose just to read this.

The topic of this dicussion is the new rules and it's being beat to death. But please keep the discussion on the new rules, not on the personalities of some or generalizations on nations. It's all fun until someone gets genuinely insulted. Now just to stir that soup, nordic countries may be a bit more keen on being organized and having well defined rules for activities. But that's just one way to live and a perfectly good one. As is enjoying diving for what it is and leaving it at that. No need to bring these two worlds to conflict, they can co-exist.

Some people simply like competitive diving. For them, that's part of the fix. Who are we to define what another person can find enjoyable? I for one find great plesure in competing...And for serious competition you need good rules. It does not mean you have to sacrifice your freedom in recreational diving for that. Just don't take part in such competitions if you find it demeaning somehow.

 

[subaquaticus]

You are leading by far in number of contributions to this thread. Strange since you mainly consider freediving a road to nirvana

I was eliminated in static in Nice for allegedly having done the OK sign and said "I am OK" AT THE SAME TIME...

I had interrupted my apnea early (3'10", which corresponded to the time announced) without pushing and was perfectly clear...

Since my perf was low, I did not want to make any fuss about it but I clearly observed 3 other athletes (and not at all the least ones) making exactly the same "mistake" and receiving a white card... I saw other ones being yelled the procedure at... which led me to think that it is highly UNNATURAL to delay the saying "I am OK" which spontaneously comes as soon as you do the sign...

Even while training in my office doing and saying "OK" at the top of my neuro muscular capacities, it is difficult to refrain from uttering an "OK" while doing the sign...

What questions me is the feeling that the same procedure is not applied fairly to all athletes... It seems easier to apply strictly these rules to anonymous competitors...

Seeing that Claude Chapuis and Christian Charras were eliminated in constant weight because of the Surfacing Procedure astounds me and gives a perfume of mystery to this "procedure"... It seems more difficult and hazardous to persuade the judges of his/her awareness than doing the dive itself !

My DNF (65 m) received a white card but my ruminating this procedure between static and dynamic very much added to the stress of the comp...

Those 40 seconds after emerging from my DNF semt endless...

 

[derelictp]

Subaquaticus;
I think the problems you talk about is because you have not trained with the new rules.

Me and my friends did every training during the week in Nice with the new protocol and we acted judges to eachother.

 

[ggarrett]

I was eliminated in static in Nice for allegedly having done the OK sign and said "I am OK" AT THE SAME TIME...

I understood that you can say "I'm OK" and signal more than once. So, would you have been disqualified if you would have said "I'm OK" a second time after giving both signals at the same time?

Subjectivity enters in the interpretation of the rules rather than in the rules themselves. The new rules simply have shifted the subjectivity to a different focus`.

Peace,
Glen

 

[subaquaticus]

I understood that you can say "I'm OK" and signal more than once. So, would you have been disqualified if you would have said "I'm OK" a second time after giving both signals at the same time?

Good question ! According to Bill Strömberg's view expressed during CIPA Open's preliminary meeting (this view was in contradiction with a previous view expressed...) my perf would have been validated if I had said once again : "I am OK"...

But this is so stupid ! How could I have guessed before seeing my red card, that something was perceived wrong by the judges ?

 

[samdive]

you can say you are ok, signal and hey, probably remove and replace your mask as many times as you like - as long as you do it ONCE in the right order within 20 seconds.. its pretty simple really... just practice! this debate seems to have gone pretty wild for something so straightforward...

my dive in Nice was hard work for me, I dipped under a wave on surfacing and took 21 seconds to complete the protocol - so I got DQd - which I believe was fair. It was not a samba or BO but it was not an easy dive - and I know for sure that if I had put 2m less then I would have managed everything in 20 seconds, maybe if I had trained more with the new protocol I could have done it from the depth I did dive, but I didn't - so there you have it, the protocol works. At least I think so.

s

 

[immerlustig]

subaquaticus,

quote:
How could I have guessed before seeing my red card, that something was perceived wrong by the judges ?

question 1: did you, or did you not practice the surface protocol before the comp?

question 2: since you are obviously pissed off with this, why didn't you protest?

question 3: are you going to sulk forever, or are you going to spend all this energy and time in practising this surface protocol to do clean performances in the future?

chill out, man.

another day, another debt. you win a bit, you lose a bit. another day, another dollar. life's a bitch and then you die. or something like this.

i hope that you get over that issue soon,

sending you honest regards

roland

ps: just by principle i always strongly disagree with someone who says something is impossible. there is simply no logic in that.

 

[subaquaticus]

question 1: did you, or did you not practice the surface protocol before the comp?

I first heard of this new protocol the day before the comp at the CIPA... and there were debates about whether you could repeat as many times as you wish OK...

For me SP was a simple formality to check that you are OK...

I had not measured all the trickyness of the process...

I had taken part in comps organized by FFESSM and SP is by far not so tricky...

question 2: since you are obviously pissed off with this, why didn't you protest?

what pissed me off was to see three other athletes who also simultaneously said and did OK, but received a white card...

then the same rigor was not applied in the same way to everybody...

I not exactly complained but made this remark to a French judge ; he answered me :

1. that the French had not voted for ths new procedure...

2. that this concept of "SIMULTANEITY" which was the cause of my elimination was left with the subjectivity of the judge...

then the more I read the various posts of this thread, the more I feel that French competitors competing in their own country must execute lunatic tricks invented abroad...

In addition it is illegal (Toubon law, enforced by a French Minister of Culture some 20 years ago) to force a French citizen competing on the French soil to pronounce English phrases so ugly as "I am OK"... I completely agree with Joanna from Switzerland and Claude Chapuis who propose that French speaking people should (in fact they must) be allowed to say :

"Tout va bien" or "ça baigne" or "c'est un panard d'enfer" or "Les chaussettes de l'Archiduchesse sont-elles sèches et archi-sèches ?" (in this last case, the competitor would be gratified with 2 additional meters or seconds)...

question 3: are you going to sulk forever, or are you going to spend all this energy and time in practising this surface protocol to do clean performances in the future ?

As I said I trained "dry" at the office with this flicking SP... I stated that this is counternatural to refrain from uttering "I am OK" while doing the sign and up to now, notwithstanding this whole prose on the subject, I have not yet understood the rationale for imposing all that and the connection with a samba problem...

 

[immerlustig]

very well. now that we are closing that issue i have a general question regarding ealier statements about audience friendly rules and image of freediving.

i don't go to competitions. friends do. i like to read and hear about comps, though. i am the audience. so, from my (audience) point of view i don't really see why rules should be made for me. i don't know if in any other sport rules are being made to please the audience. i do believe that rules are made so athletes performances can be judged and compared. something like this.

i don't think that judo rules are viewer friendly. on the other hand i don't care about judo, i never really watch it, and, of course, i never bothered learning the rules.

my point is, if i'm interested in the sport i will learn what the rules are. if i'm not interested in the sport i won't watch it. if i don't watch it, then i'm not the audience anymore and that means that nobody has to consider what i think about rules.

if i ever watch any sports program it's never ever because i like the rules.

also i don't really understand how anyone can say freediving has a bad image. so far i've never met anyone who gave me that impression. also, i don't quite understand why i (as the audience) should be put off by a bo/samba. i am also very interested in motorbike racing. that is wildly popular and more often than not racers are finishing a race on a stretcher. the intensity and drama of a bike crash doesn't quite compare with a bit of muscle spasm or someone nodding off in a pool.

(i'm always amazed how people can call freediving an 'extreme sport', but that's another issue.)

can anyone explain?

cheers,

roland (audience)


ps: i hope nobody misinterprets this post. i don't want to see more sambas/bo's in a comp to make it more exciting or appealing. i just accept the fact that it happens.

 

[Jason Billows]

Hi Roland.

Here are some thoughts...

I don't think anyone wants to create rules to please the audience. I think it is more about making the sport easier to understand and accessible.

Your example of Judo could illustrate a point. Not many people understand Judo's rules and perhaps that's one reason it has a small audience. Sports with simple straightforward rules make it easier to attract and keep audiences involved.

Why should we care if we have an audience? For the growth of the sport. The more audience interest, the more potential participants, the more exposure, the more sponsorship, etc. Many freedivers couldn't care less and would be happy simply diving on the reefs, but for those who want competiton to be part of the sport it is a very important factor. If our rules are not easily understood and the sport does not "appear" to be safe we will not generate that audience in my opinion.

Notice I said "appear" to be safe. As freedivers we know that a bad samba isn't life threatening or killing thousands of brain cells. However, for a lay person who is just being introduced to the sport it can be very disconcerting and make the sport appear to be unsafe. I think most freedivers would agree that while they may have known about the true effects of a samba or BO they were probably pretty freaked out the first time they saw one. I know I was.

I suppose one could argue that it isn't a big deal if there is no audience, but I'd disagree. While having bleechers full of fans insn't all that important, having sponsors, facilities and other support available is necessary for competition and I think that they will all be viewing the sport from the same perspective as an "audience".

I just recently helped to organize the Eastern Regional Championships in Ottawa and we're now preparing for the Canadian Nationals later this month. In some cases we were not allowed access to dive locations and services because people viewed the sport as unsafe. Having a better understanding of our sport would help to eliminate those obstacles and one way to do that is by making the rules easily understood and the sport to "appear" safe.

Ever since Audrey's death a large number of people I introduce to the sport comment on the coverage they saw about her. That and other misinformation create a big obstacle to overcome in gaining understanding for our sport.

I think it is good that this thread has had so much activity and the committee is reviewing everyone's comments. I have had my opinion flip back and forth on some of the new rules a couple of times, but I have always felt that building an audience understanding should be one of our primary goals after safety.

Jason

 

[subaquaticus]

I don't think that judo rules are viewer friendly.

yes they are ! le me tell you why... Judo rules in competitions evolved very quickly adapting to the context.... One example... As you may know, in a judo fight there are two main phases : a first standing one and a second one on the ground... The first phase is obviously the most spectacular using projections and giving judo its image of spectacular sport... In the seventies the Soviets were very strong in the second phase (on the ground) but not so strong in the first one (standing)... Then they used tricks to shortcut the first phase, in particular doing fake attacks in order to bring their adversary to the ground without making a decent "projection"... As a result, it was kind of defigurating this noble sport....

New rules were then edicted prohibiting these fake attacks, to the great benefit of the viewer...

Rules have an enormous impact on the general look of a sport... rewarding some aspects and sanctioning some other, you model the show...

also i don't really understand how anyone can say freediving has a bad image

I am afraid it has to a certain extent...

(I'm always amazed how people can call freediving an 'extreme sport'

It is ! Freediving is extremely dangerous if not practiced in a strict frame of safety rules... I have only done - as a competitor but also as a viewer from inside - 5 comps but I could see some Bos and sambas where the freediver would have been drowned without the imediate rescue of safety divers... Everywhere in French swimming pools it is written : "Freediving forbidden"...

 

[subaquaticus]

Your example of Judo could illustrate a point. Not many people understand Judo's rules and perhaps that's one reason it has a small audience.

You are right ! I attended last week end a Viet-Vo-Dao comp ; it is a martial art which looks like a mixture of judo and karate... ; I firstly asked for explanations of the rules which are very complex like for all other fighting sports... and then I was able to understand what happened...

I have always felt that building an audience understanding should be one of our primary goals after safety.

I think that behind safety, but prior to audience understanding the rules' main objective would be to be clearly understood and accepted by all competitors, which is not yet done...

 

[subaquaticus]

I don't think anyone wants to create rules to please the audience. I think it is more about making the sport easier to understand and accessible.

Some sports are more spectacular than others...
Seeing a guy lying in the water during 9 minutes is not very exciting from a viewer's point of view, is it ? If you look at a swimming race, you see a swimmer ahead of the other and you can understand that he/she will be the winner... Being geometrically ahead of the other doesn't make of you a winner in dynamic apnea... What kind of show can you propose for a comp in constant weight ?

 

[Jason Billows]

Hi Sub.

I have heard a number of suggestions as to how freediving can be made more spectator friendly.

Perhaps when the sport has grown and we have more judges available the static competitors can compete all at the same time or in heets and head to head competitons.

Kirk and the other organizers of the worlds in Vancouver last year made some great strides. Spectators on the barge could watch the spectators prepare on the surface, then watch the underwater portion of their dives on a large screen television.

Dynamic is much more spectator friendly to begin with because you can watch the entire performance and it is an active event.

For all events competitors could be hooked up with heart rate monitors adding another element for people to watch.

There have been other threads discussing these and other ideas. Just thought I'd mention a few.

Jason

 

[jome]

I hate to bring this thread alive again but I was reading some old discussion about lung squeeze and someone (I think it was Peter Scott) suggested that lung squeeze should be penalized in the rules.

If people are worried about what it looks like to the public when someone with clear samba is accepted, imagine the sight of someone coughing up massive amounts of blood, but given a white card. I've seen it happen and even to a HC freediving addict like myself that looked ugly. In fact very ugly.

Now, discussion, brainstorming, whatever...

Do you think lung squeeze should be penalized, how, and how would you objectively judge it?

Personally I think it's a much bigger risk than a controlled samba (diving alone being a totally different area) and should be discouraged at every level.