-
Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:
- Join over 44,280+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
- Participate in and browse from over 516,210+ posts.
- Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
- Post your own photos or view from 7,441+ user submitted images.
- All this and much more...
You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!
New STA record attempt pending
- Thread startertrux
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Yes, of course you are right, it was with fins - it was just a short circuit when I typed it. Thanks for the heads-up.
ITS THE RULES THAT CAUSE THE PROBLEM. If at such a prestige international event, Stephane exceeds the time that Aida claim to be a world record (and we will all see it happen, including many Aida International judges that wont be wearing their official hats). Then clearly it becomes the new world record. The problem is Aida have listed dozens of extra hoops that Aida insist their athletes have to go through as well as simply holding their breath the longest.
Of course we dont expect Staphane to claim a world record if he is on drugs, breathes 02 beforehand or has an lmc afterwards but why do we expect him to conform to dozens of red tape Aida rules if he is not a member of Aida.
Stephane is simply a person who will smash the longest time that an Aida athlete has recorded as the existing Aida world record. That makes him the new world record holder in my book. And if he flicks the Vs or makes a different OK type two fingered gesture at the judges to show he is OK, it should make no difference to the fact.
I expect Stephane will comply with all the rules that Aida insist upon anyway. Except he did not invite them to officiate because its a different organisations event. If Aida wish to claim that they alone have world record responsibility to validate records, then they should attend. Of course Aida wont attend (officially)because the rules allow them to choose not to (not being invited, not being paid type exuses come to mind).
What I am saying is that Aida have say 2000 members and one out of 2000 is the deepest, longest, furthest and Aida call that athlete a world record holder. They ignore the billions of other non Aida members, one of which becomes deeper, further, longer etc. And I am not talking about an unknown individual here, but a recognised world class athlete.
What has happened here is that Stephane and perhaps Umberto, Pipin, Patrick etc are in different camps , but regardless of that, if they beat our athletes performances than we should relinquish our claim on an Aida world record holder and hand it over as being held by a CMAS or other organisations athlete.
Bringing different organisations together is absolutely the answer and it seems its happening anyway in this case. That is real progress and looks great for including the Russians, Chinese, Italians etc into the mix. Agreeing a fixed set of rules should be childs play and then we will have true and worthy recognition for whoever becomes the real world record holder. It is not the answer to ignore the performance of non Aida members and pretend our athletes are the real champions.
I am playing devils advocate here to some degree and in fact would ignore claims by stunt teams and wacky unknowns. But I cannot ignore bone fide athlethes performances during recognised international competition events. The challenge is for Aida to become as worthy on a world stage as the athletes they represent.
Of course we dont expect Staphane to claim a world record if he is on drugs, breathes 02 beforehand or has an lmc afterwards but why do we expect him to conform to dozens of red tape Aida rules if he is not a member of Aida.
Stephane is simply a person who will smash the longest time that an Aida athlete has recorded as the existing Aida world record. That makes him the new world record holder in my book. And if he flicks the Vs or makes a different OK type two fingered gesture at the judges to show he is OK, it should make no difference to the fact.
I expect Stephane will comply with all the rules that Aida insist upon anyway. Except he did not invite them to officiate because its a different organisations event. If Aida wish to claim that they alone have world record responsibility to validate records, then they should attend. Of course Aida wont attend (officially)because the rules allow them to choose not to (not being invited, not being paid type exuses come to mind).
What I am saying is that Aida have say 2000 members and one out of 2000 is the deepest, longest, furthest and Aida call that athlete a world record holder. They ignore the billions of other non Aida members, one of which becomes deeper, further, longer etc. And I am not talking about an unknown individual here, but a recognised world class athlete.
What has happened here is that Stephane and perhaps Umberto, Pipin, Patrick etc are in different camps , but regardless of that, if they beat our athletes performances than we should relinquish our claim on an Aida world record holder and hand it over as being held by a CMAS or other organisations athlete.
Bringing different organisations together is absolutely the answer and it seems its happening anyway in this case. That is real progress and looks great for including the Russians, Chinese, Italians etc into the mix. Agreeing a fixed set of rules should be childs play and then we will have true and worthy recognition for whoever becomes the real world record holder. It is not the answer to ignore the performance of non Aida members and pretend our athletes are the real champions.
I am playing devils advocate here to some degree and in fact would ignore claims by stunt teams and wacky unknowns. But I cannot ignore bone fide athlethes performances during recognised international competition events. The challenge is for Aida to become as worthy on a world stage as the athletes they represent.
Last edited:
Haydn, what dozens of red tapes exactly are you speaking of? AFAIK, there is not so many of them at STA: principally it is the surface protocol and a doping control. It is Stephan's choice not to supervise the record by AIDA since he is pissed off with them because of previous disqualification cases. I do not see why AIDA should recognize any record it did not judge. AIDA is certainly not the only organism that has the right to ratify world records, but it is the only organism that can ratify AIDA world records. AFAIK, FFESSM can only sanction national records. He may indeed do a better performance than the current WR, but so did already many other freedivers - as long as the attempt is not official, it is simply no official record - same for Stephan as for Tom or others. And same as for thousands of other athletes in any other sport discipline.
...a record without an official doping test is`n`t a record!
I will know that the urinary from the champion is in the safe from a trustable organisation.
"Trust is good, control is better"
my 2 cents only.
I will know that the urinary from the champion is in the safe from a trustable organisation.
"Trust is good, control is better"
my 2 cents only.
I agree with you Trux to the extent that records in training with a buddy or a bunch of onlookers cannot be ratified. But its different when the record is performed in an international competition with other freedivers and their affiliated organisations taking part. Records are set to fall at such events and we aught to recognise the results even if they beat our own Aida athletes. I do expect a dope test to be mandatory though as far as world records are concerned, and Stephane may not be able to afford one.
The red tapes I disagree with are mainly those that have no bearing on the performance, eg having two international Aida judges present rather than two suitably qualified other judges. Having to perform Aida surface protocols rather than the protocols which their own organisation has chosen. (why cant Aida accept different protocols, as long as Aida agree the standard). Just because Stephane is cheesed off with Aida, should not be a barrier to Aida. Aida should respect Stephane and even ask to be invited and go there without Stephane paying a fee. Qualified Aida officials will no doubt be there anyway and if Stephane is successful and otherwise would be ratified, why should he not be ratified just because he didnt ask Aida to be there?
What if Aida does attend without Stephanes invitation. Stephane suceeds and Aida ratifies the record. Do you think Stephane would then ask Aida not to add his name to the Aida list of World Records? Surely, Aida attending and making a fair judgement based on Stephanes performance could be ratified. Judge the performance rather than the letter of the law.
Who really cares if the athlete didnt give Aida sufficient notice, or do a training dive near enough to the existing record. Who cares if the athlete didnt do Aidas surface protocol but did a different equivalent protocol instead. What matters is his performance, so lets get down and judge the performance, then either ratify it or not.
The red tapes I disagree with are mainly those that have no bearing on the performance, eg having two international Aida judges present rather than two suitably qualified other judges. Having to perform Aida surface protocols rather than the protocols which their own organisation has chosen. (why cant Aida accept different protocols, as long as Aida agree the standard). Just because Stephane is cheesed off with Aida, should not be a barrier to Aida. Aida should respect Stephane and even ask to be invited and go there without Stephane paying a fee. Qualified Aida officials will no doubt be there anyway and if Stephane is successful and otherwise would be ratified, why should he not be ratified just because he didnt ask Aida to be there?
What if Aida does attend without Stephanes invitation. Stephane suceeds and Aida ratifies the record. Do you think Stephane would then ask Aida not to add his name to the Aida list of World Records? Surely, Aida attending and making a fair judgement based on Stephanes performance could be ratified. Judge the performance rather than the letter of the law.
Who really cares if the athlete didnt give Aida sufficient notice, or do a training dive near enough to the existing record. Who cares if the athlete didnt do Aidas surface protocol but did a different equivalent protocol instead. What matters is his performance, so lets get down and judge the performance, then either ratify it or not.
An AIDA WR is exactly that - an AIDA record - not a Guiness record, a CMAS record, or a F.R.E.E record.
I do agree that AIDA should work with other agencies but the rules should be the same for everybody. If Stephane wants to use a different okay signal than AIDA requires then that is his choice. He obviously does not care so much about their opinion anyway.
I think the core of this issue is not the doping tests or the surveilance before the performance. This is about the athlete showing they are in control of their functions during and after completion of their performance. To do this everyone needs to know beforehand what is expected of the athlete upon surfacing. Stephane clearly has his own ideas in regards to this.
I do agree that AIDA should work with other agencies but the rules should be the same for everybody. If Stephane wants to use a different okay signal than AIDA requires then that is his choice. He obviously does not care so much about their opinion anyway.
I think the core of this issue is not the doping tests or the surveilance before the performance. This is about the athlete showing they are in control of their functions during and after completion of their performance. To do this everyone needs to know beforehand what is expected of the athlete upon surfacing. Stephane clearly has his own ideas in regards to this.
Some key points:
- Mifsud became angry after the 8'24" static, because the judges gave him the white card, and told him that he should take the doping test. So he paid 500 Euro for the doping test. Later AIDA says he passed the test but the record doesn't count because of errors on the part of the judges. So, Mifsud said that since it was AIDA's error to give him the white card, he wants AIDA to refund the 500 Euro doping test. AIDA said no. AIDA is not supposed to make an athlete take the doping test unless everything else in the performance is clean. So that's how it started.
- Everyone is saying that unless AIDA is there and the athlete does a doping test, the record is 'worthless.' But, the best performance enhancer for freediving is EPO, and AIDA's IOC doping test cannot detect EPO. The athlete will stop taking it before the record, making it undetectable. The only way to detect it is to do doping tests during training, which AIDA does not do. So even if AIDA is there and does a doping test, it says nothing about whether or not the athlete is cheating. In fact, I have heard rumours from several sources that several recent AIDA world records (in the last 2 years) have been done under the influence of EPO. I can't divulge the names of the athletes since there is no firm evidence. But the possibility is there, and the current anti-doping method is far from accurate.
- Mifsud became angry after the 8'24" static, because the judges gave him the white card, and told him that he should take the doping test. So he paid 500 Euro for the doping test. Later AIDA says he passed the test but the record doesn't count because of errors on the part of the judges. So, Mifsud said that since it was AIDA's error to give him the white card, he wants AIDA to refund the 500 Euro doping test. AIDA said no. AIDA is not supposed to make an athlete take the doping test unless everything else in the performance is clean. So that's how it started.
- Everyone is saying that unless AIDA is there and the athlete does a doping test, the record is 'worthless.' But, the best performance enhancer for freediving is EPO, and AIDA's IOC doping test cannot detect EPO. The athlete will stop taking it before the record, making it undetectable. The only way to detect it is to do doping tests during training, which AIDA does not do. So even if AIDA is there and does a doping test, it says nothing about whether or not the athlete is cheating. In fact, I have heard rumours from several sources that several recent AIDA world records (in the last 2 years) have been done under the influence of EPO. I can't divulge the names of the athletes since there is no firm evidence. But the possibility is there, and the current anti-doping method is far from accurate.
In the case of someone with a large packing volume I wouldn't have thought EPO will give that huge a boost. The larger the packing volume the less your red blood cell count will matter. In the case of static surely Beta Blockers would be the no1 performance enhancer ?
The only drug rumours I have heard before seem to come more from rival atheletes and their friends, I wouldn't exactly give them any credit. We had the same thing in Australia every time one of our swimmers did really well there would be drug rumours, the athletes themselves were tested constantly. :t
Wal
The only drug rumours I have heard before seem to come more from rival atheletes and their friends, I wouldn't exactly give them any credit. We had the same thing in Australia every time one of our swimmers did really well there would be drug rumours, the athletes themselves were tested constantly. :t
Wal
Last edited:
Eric - that is not what EVERYONE is saying.
What you say about some apneists allegedly using EPO is interesting. It seems that no one really agrees on the accuracy of current testing methods - at least from what research I have read. If we can't accurately test for it then we either have to give the athlete the benefit of the doubt or keep them under 24 hour surveilance for a couple of weeks before their attempt. What would you suggest is the solution?
Well, in Renens in 2005 I think the static medalists were tested 2 or 3 days after the performance! I'm not sure how it is handled nowadays, but I would not call that doping control...
In a real doping control, the athlete never leaves the eyes of the controller after the performance before he has pissed in a cup. Not for one bleeding second. They certainly do not go out for 2 days doing what ever they please.
And as Eric points out, EPO cannot be detected after a few days and the new human based one not even then. A blood test might give some info, but it could also just lead to false accusations since a lot of talented divers will have pretty thick blood via completely natural means. Of course one way would be to set a limit for example for hb, as they do in crosscountry skiing for example. But what would the limit be so that it would be fair? I really don't like that as a solution.
Which isn't to say I don't value doping control - I think it is vital! All I'm saying that doing it for just a show doesn't have much value. Doping will certainly make it's way to freediving if it hasn't already.
I'm also not making any accusation against Mifsud - good luck to him on his attempt. Certainly it cannot be considered and AIDA world record, and currently AIDA is pretty much the only organization with any real credibility in that area. Maybe that will change, maybe not. I don't think any organization can just claim that they have a monopoly on world records - it just comes down to credibility...
In a real doping control, the athlete never leaves the eyes of the controller after the performance before he has pissed in a cup. Not for one bleeding second. They certainly do not go out for 2 days doing what ever they please.
And as Eric points out, EPO cannot be detected after a few days and the new human based one not even then. A blood test might give some info, but it could also just lead to false accusations since a lot of talented divers will have pretty thick blood via completely natural means. Of course one way would be to set a limit for example for hb, as they do in crosscountry skiing for example. But what would the limit be so that it would be fair? I really don't like that as a solution.
Which isn't to say I don't value doping control - I think it is vital! All I'm saying that doing it for just a show doesn't have much value. Doping will certainly make it's way to freediving if it hasn't already.
I'm also not making any accusation against Mifsud - good luck to him on his attempt. Certainly it cannot be considered and AIDA world record, and currently AIDA is pretty much the only organization with any real credibility in that area. Maybe that will change, maybe not. I don't think any organization can just claim that they have a monopoly on world records - it just comes down to credibility...
you know thats a god point, but what im about to say is not really professional. some athletes in my opinion are more credible than others. to give an example fom the past, there was some doubt in pipins credibility by some people, but no so much for say mayol or umberto... i think that for the more "credible divers", if they do an attempt that was witnessed by others (no necessarily judges of a ratified organisation, AIDA or otherwise), to them they achieved a record, i would imagine that MIfsud may consider himself in that sort of category, an when he claims he held the WR in dyN, he probably didnt mean to be arrogant. Of curse all that could be crap, im really inexperienced here, but i just gt out of the technical side of things and attempted to analyze peoples behaviour in general...
just my opinion
just my opinion
Don`t forget, the situation in AIDA is completely changed. Our board is not Sebastian Nagel and Dieter Baumann anymore (they where the persons in charge for the mistakes(?). The rules are different also (no f***** LMC-video-decision anymore!)
AIDA is`n`t perfect, but I can`t see the reasons for an attempt without AIDA.
The only way to stop the rumours is an official attempt with AIDA (incl. dopingtest).
Every other way will be a shame!
AIDA is`n`t perfect, but I can`t see the reasons for an attempt without AIDA.
The only way to stop the rumours is an official attempt with AIDA (incl. dopingtest).
Every other way will be a shame!
Last edited:
We have a world championship going on right now in Maribor. Every performance made there will have my greatest respect and credibility because it is done under the eyes of fans, rivals, judges. Done according to the same rules and conditions for everyone.
I have also great respect for Stephane Mifsud (especially because he is a bifiner as I am
). But what he is doing with this STA attempt, taking place same time as the WC, is behaving like a 10 year old boy. I cannot understand why he does not go to Maribor and gain the respect than belongs to him. Instead of that, he is doing a performance that is pretty much worthless in the freediving world.
I have also great respect for Stephane Mifsud (especially because he is a bifiner as I am
). But what he is doing with this STA attempt, taking place same time as the WC, is behaving like a 10 year old boy. I cannot understand why he does not go to Maribor and gain the respect than belongs to him. Instead of that, he is doing a performance that is pretty much worthless in the freediving world.hm... nice to came across this discusion... as I was just starting to take this sport and my competitions a tad to seriously. Now with all this bullshiting about different organisations and clashes among them and doping tests and who is ethical and who is not.... I am just starting to see that this is becoming a dirty sport like any other... and freediviers are becoming obsesed: not by sheer pleasure of freediving but by the speculations of who is on drugs, who is cheating and under which organisation a certain diver did the performance. It is a shame. See you in Maribor or anywhere alse where there is water and nice people!
And good luck to Mifsud just so that I stick to the subject.
Miha
And good luck to Mifsud just so that I stick to the subject.
Miha
Miha,
Don't get disheartened by the above competitions are only one part of this fantatsic sport as you seem to know only too well. What I love about it is that despite all of the above I will still visit the ocean and experiance its beauty and silence,peace etc. Comps are only a small part of this sport imho but they do make for interesting discussions and are great pushing boundries. As far as i know in other sports like triathlon athletics etc you have to let the doping control body know where you will be at all times for weeks before the race/comp they can literally land at your door and do a test and if you are not there or cant be there within an hour or so there are penaltys. If you miss one or two its a big deal and you may not be allowed to compete. I know there was an issue with triathlon world champ Tim Don at one stage in that it took some hours to appear or he was at another location. I think it got sorted out in the end but and heres the kicker, a doping test currently at E500 is gonna cost a whole lot more if the athlethe has to be followed or surveyed for a period of time beforehand. I am sure this cost would be outside the remit of most competitors without major major sponsership. I think at this stage we have to go on their word at the end of the day its about pushing the human body not seeing what we can do with boosters etc. Also where do supplements iron/vitamins etc and performance enhancers crossover where is that line?
On a side note someone on a radio show here muted the idea of having a druuged olympics let all competitors take whatever they want before hand should be a laugh.
Don't get disheartened by the above competitions are only one part of this fantatsic sport as you seem to know only too well. What I love about it is that despite all of the above I will still visit the ocean and experiance its beauty and silence,peace etc. Comps are only a small part of this sport imho but they do make for interesting discussions and are great pushing boundries. As far as i know in other sports like triathlon athletics etc you have to let the doping control body know where you will be at all times for weeks before the race/comp they can literally land at your door and do a test and if you are not there or cant be there within an hour or so there are penaltys. If you miss one or two its a big deal and you may not be allowed to compete. I know there was an issue with triathlon world champ Tim Don at one stage in that it took some hours to appear or he was at another location. I think it got sorted out in the end but and heres the kicker, a doping test currently at E500 is gonna cost a whole lot more if the athlethe has to be followed or surveyed for a period of time beforehand. I am sure this cost would be outside the remit of most competitors without major major sponsership. I think at this stage we have to go on their word at the end of the day its about pushing the human body not seeing what we can do with boosters etc. Also where do supplements iron/vitamins etc and performance enhancers crossover where is that line?
On a side note someone on a radio show here muted the idea of having a druuged olympics let all competitors take whatever they want before hand should be a laugh.
Sadly, that is just inevitable in any seriously competitive sport...The harder the competition gets, the stronger the emotions...In the future AIDA will probably move to measuring performances in cm and tenths of a second. Getting to the top will mean starting training from childhood and working on training really hard 2 times a day for a decade - and even not then in all cases can you reach the top. None of this "I started diving last year and now I'm a finalist in the WC"-stuff. Imagine the emotions then?
The good news is, we still have the option of diving for our selves and not minding the sillyness of competitive freediving. In a way I guess that is what Mifsud must feel like he's doing. He just wants to see how far he can go and have someone witness it. I believe in AIDA and believe that the work AIDA does is good and important. However, I also believe that people always have the freedom to make their own choices. Stephane may well claim his performance is a world records - he has every right. The point is, which claim is more credible in the eyes of the public? I guess currently the state is that "the biggest one". In the eyes of freedivers, of course AIDA, but that is such a minority still...The good that AIDA has brought to it is that even Stephane will have to generally follow similar protocols in his attempt to be taken seriously, even if he does not want AIDA there - his performance and the criteria for it will definitely be matched against AIDA versions. So in that sense the "standardization" work has worked rather well...AIDA is not "absolute", or any other federation in any other sport. It is just the most experienced and credible one when it comes to judging freediving performances.
Freediving has not been "ruined" - only competitive freediving will unfortunately get uglier and uglier as years progress. It is still a relatively nice sport. But in, say 10 years, it will be completely different story...Sadly I don't see any way around it.
Last edited:
I think Guiness are rightly hailed as the governing body for validation of World Records. And I believe I am right in saying that where they are unable to validate a record due to inexperience in the event, they authorise each sports governing body to act on their behalf. This means (and I may be wrong), but I thought Aida had been authorised by Guiness to act for them. If this is so, then Aida are the only organisation that Guiness will accept as World Record judges in our sport.
If I am right, Aida should extend the hand of friendship to any dis-allusioned athlete. Aida should be pro active in resolving these issues. Perhaps it would be a start if Aida made contact with Guiness to check this out.
If I am right, Aida should extend the hand of friendship to any dis-allusioned athlete. Aida should be pro active in resolving these issues. Perhaps it would be a start if Aida made contact with Guiness to check this out.