Omer XXV Speargun + Other Fast tracking guns?

[GreekDiver]

not yet. I will start doing stuff in the pool next week.

 

[Mr. X]

Hiya

Mr.X, your biggest challenge is going to be switching from a rear handle to a mid-handle. Both guns shoot very differently and it will be difficult to get accustomed to switching between the two. If your primary gun is rear handled, best to get your secondary, dirty water gun to be rear handled too.

Another factor influencing your purchase is the brand you currently use. Sometimes various manufacturer's gun will shoot differently to one another. Thats why you often hear of spearo's using a railgun for the first time and complaining that the gun is in-accurate!! If possible, try and stick to the same brand of gun you currently have. This way, you are always comfortable with the grip, safety(if you use it!!) and the way it shoots.

Mid-handles are AWESOME!! I can't understand why so very few euro spearo's use them!! Understandably, for cave/crevice hunting a small rear handle works well, but for any other type of spearing, a mid-handle is superb!!

Regards
miles

I'm not considering a mid-handle. You and Pastor make a good case for them but they few and far between here - and my modest catches don't justify importing a custom Wong or Tommy Botha. In poor viz/confined gulleys, having great range is not really a benefit, although I guess it helps when the water clears, as it often does.

I would love to stick with Rob Allen and that has always been my intention - figured I'd probably end up with 90, 80 & 70 - and something bigger for a special trip sometime. However, I've been trying to get a 70cm RA for longer than I care to remember. Rob & Jeremy in SA are superb and so helpful. But dealing with the european distribution is like wading through treacle at the moment. So considered Rabitech, Spearo Dave carries them now, but the smallest gun he currently lists is 80cm. You don't have a spare 70cm Pelaj do you Miles?

The Europeans don't make 70's, so I'm now looking at European 75's (/80/82). They do offer some advantages too, the models I am currently looking at (Cressi Comanche, Omer XXV & Dessault) are all particularly light & slim, and considerably cheaper (though probably not as tough), especially if you shop around. Rails, bulk rubber, tri-cut points, mini-sharkfins and/or Dyneema wishbones are options on some - the european makers are increasingly copying the SA design traits & adding their own twists. I reckon SA companies made several good key design decisions early - perhaps because good viz. & big fish forced them to.

 

[Mr. X]

It's the same here I'm afraid, shipping and tax kill the trade in these guns. If your in the states though you could always bring one back with you and avoid that.

You're right about shipping & tax. Our govt. constantly push aid for Africa while at the same time levying punitive taxes on the goods they produce:duh. The customs guys have a book of weird and arbitrary taxes for hand carried goods brought into the country...did you know they levy a different tax for electric guitars than for acoustic guitars (on top of VAT)!:head:head:head

 

[Pastor]

Hey check out the new gun building extravaganza and push for a mid handled euro, it will change your view for life rofl

 

[Pav]

I was using 75 and 90 Commanche.
The 90 Omer Gold replaced the 90 commanche.

I use the 90 nearly all the time. Really high quality. Great advice from Spagetti and Oldmandave.

as the diameter is smaller it seems worthwhile paying for carbon in this case. (for other reasons than the look :inlove !!)

 

[spaghetti]

I think the slim XXV Gold gives it's best in the 90cm size.
In facts I think the 90 is a very paculiar size of gun. It's a gun for agguato, for short shots ranging from 3 meters, three meters and a half, but still it's quite a long weapon, with a length that makes it not so easy to handle in narrow spaces and/or in short visibility. It's got to be slim, it must be light and very manouverable.
On the contrary, for longer guns, from 100+, I prefer guns with a bigger mass to endure the recoil of a more powerful shot. But also as a shorter one I'm loving my Gabbiano 77: it's significantly bulkier and a bit harder to swing than the XXV 82 I had, but for such a short gun this is no serious issue. I mean, a 75/82 gun is so short and compact that it will be acceptably easy to swing even if it has some "mass" to make it sturdier and a bit more accurate.
To resume, for what it's worth, my personal preferences go to the Omer XXV Gold for size 90 and to Seatec Gabbiano 77 for the 75/77/82 category.
These could sound like some weird statements, but I'm sure you understand and, eventually, some will agree.

 

[strangelove]

I think the slim XXV Gold gives it's best in the 90cm size.
In facts I think the 90 is a very paculiar size of gun. It's a gun for agguato, for short shots ranging from 3 meters, three meters and a half, but still it's quite a long weapon, with a length that makes it not so easy to handle in narrow spaces and/or in short visibility. It's got to be slim, it must be light and very manouverable.
On the contrary, for longer guns, from 100+, I prefer guns with a bigger mass to endure the recoil of a more powerful shot. But also as a shorter one I'm loving my Gabbiano 77: it's significantly bulkier and a bit harder to swing than the XXV 82 I had, but for such a short gun this is no serious issue. I mean, a 75/82 gun is so short and compact that it will be acceptably easy to swing even if it has some "mass" to make it sturdier and a bit more accurate.
To resume, for what it's worth, my personal preferences go to the Omer XXV Gold for size 90 and to Seatec Gabbiano 77 for the 75/77/82 category.
These could sound like some weird statements, but I'm sure you understand and, eventually, some will agree.

I definitly agree you , I wish omer sold those guns here (US).

Spaghetti 400 ! You are a great source of knowledge and information !

Thanks for sharing

 

[Mr. X]

Mr X, just to clear up the length thing on my Omer Gold XXV 90. It uses a shorter spear than a "standard" 90cm gun. This makes the OmerGold XXV 90 only 5cm longer than a "standard" 75cm gun.

That's very interesting. I like the idea of a shorter spear -- perhaps that is only possible on the railed XXV Gold & not on the plain carbon tube of the regular XXV? You don't think they sent the wrong spear, perhaps to save on shipping? Pav, have your noticed your 90cm XXV being shorter overall than your Comanche 90?

So, we'd expect the 82cm version to be 3cm shorter overall than a regular 75! That would be good. Also, the 75cm might be as much as 10cm shorter overall that a regular 75...the same length as a "standard" 65cm gun. While that would help compactness (which will be a factor if fishing gulleys/caves or strapping the gun to a float), any reduction in tracking drag would likely be fairly small, I would think, as the tube produces the majority of the drag rather than the thin spear, especially as euro-barbs lay flat (but perhaps I am wrong, the longer length of the spear will give it a proportionally larger turning moment). If the above is correct, I think either size would work well (given the thin 25mm tube diameter): the 82 acting like a 75 with the range of an 82 (-3cm); the 75 would likely give the 70cm performance I was looking but with the range of a 75 (-10cm) - those are attractive combinations.

Regular XXV

Gold XXV with double rubbers

No technical info. on the spears on Omer's XXV datasheet. (Curious to see if both regular & Gold models use short spears with 2 notches for double bands).

 

[UK Spearo]

for what it's worth, and I have dived Dorset for many years now, I use a 75 in the summer unless the viz is exceptional, in which case I use my 90. In the winter I never use any more than a 60. All Beauchat guns with 6.5mm Cressi spears and 20mm rubbers. I do have a 115 Beauchat but only use that in the Med or Azores..... all my guns only use a single rubber. My mate shot a 60lb Amber Jack in the Azores with a singe 18mm rubber (C4 carbon gun) and landed it without any problems, so that shows you don't really need double rubbers.

 

[Mr. X]

for what it's worth, and I have dived Dorset for many years now, I use a 75 in he summer unless the viz is exceptional, in which case I use my 90. In the winder I never use any more than a 60. All Beauchat guns with 6.5mm Cressi spears and 20mm rubbers. I do have a 115 Beauchat but only use that in the Med or Azores..... all my guns only use a single rubber. My mate shot a 60lb Amber Jack in the Azores with a singe 18mm rubber (C4 carbon gun) and landed it without any problems, so that shows you don't really need a double rubbers.

Thanks Clive. Those are useful insights. I don't dive as deep as you but the water quality/vis. I encounter will be similar. I am looking for a "Dorset gun" - although Devon features in my plans for this year too - so very appropriate. I don't expect to use a second band but it's nice to have options. 60lb!

 

[strangelove]

X

It is funny for me to see the gold with double band, sometime ago when some one ask why this gun was not sold in U.S., the reply from Mark Labocceta was people would likely to double band and that may cause breakage.

About the shaft size, in Brazil I never like those long shafts, the ones that stick out too much, the shaft diameter is also a factor on the gun mobility.

Using multiple bands will also make it harder to track, somewhat losing the intent of the gun.

 

[Mr. X]

X

It is funny for me to see the gold with double band, sometime ago when some one ask why this gun was not sold in U.S., the reply from Mark Labocceta was people would likely to double band and that may cause breakage.

About the shaft size, in Brazil I never like those long shafts, the ones that stick out too much, the shaft diameter is also a factor on the gun mobility.

Using multiple bands will also make it harder to track, somewhat losing the intent of the gun.

That's worth knowing. I wonder if folk are just being verly pessimistic or if there is some basis for this? The trigger mech. would have to be up to it too. I guess the railed Gold model would likely be the stronger & more rigid of the two models. [Spaghetti, stop reading now]Should I expect the build quality of Alfa Romeo/Fiat (cars with a great reputation for soul but not so much for robust reliability)? I'm not keen on fragile products - with me, they will break, simple & robust tends to work better. I wonder why they included support for double bands (double notch spear, etc.) -- perhaps 2x14mm or just a feature checkbox for folk like me?!

I don't expect to use double bands though. The standard 18mm bands are fine judging by OMDs performance last year (& Clive's) and I'm keen to try the Dessault 16mm bulk rubber (i.e more likely to reduce the power that over power it).

Good point about upsetting the lightness/tracking of the gun -- it's main feature. I think spear length = barrel length + 40cm (something like that) is fairly universal as "standard size"; maybe a bit less for very small barrel lengths.

 

[Old Man Dave]

More visual evidence on spear lengths. Left is a standard beuchat 75. Middle is my Omer XXV Gold 90. Right is an Omer Excaliber 90. All with their original spears.

Dave

 

[Marwan]

my seatec gabbiano elite 90 is almost the same length of the omer excalibur 100..

 

[spaghetti]

have your noticed your 90cm XXV being shorter overall than your Comanche 90?
So, we'd expect the 82cm version to be 3cm shorter overall than a regular 75! That would be good. Also, the 75cm might be as much as 10cm shorter overall that a regular 75...the same length as a "standard" 65cm gun. While that would help compactness (which will be a factor if fishing gulleys/caves or strapping the gun to a float), any reduction in tracking drag would likely be fairly small, I would think, as the tube produces the majority of the drag rather than the thin spear, especially as euro-barbs lay flat (but perhaps I am wrong, the longer length of the spear will give it a proportionally larger turning moment). If the above is correct, I think either size would work well (given the thin 25mm tube diameter): the 82 acting like a 75 with the range of an 82 (-3cm); the 75 would likely give the 70cm performance I was looking but with the range of a 75 (-10cm) - those are attractive combinations.

Mr. X talking of a 75cm gun well frankly discussing the 3 centimeters more or less is not much relevant in my honest opinion, because I don't think you will often shoot that gun to the limit distance of its shooting range. With my 77 I take most of my shots about 2 meters more or less from the muzzle: it's not the gun you'll often use for snipering from distance, in most of situations it will be more the gun for "surprise" shots in short visibility or narrow spaces between rocks and kelp.
I really love hunting with 75/77: it's so much fun and I predict and wish you will enjoy it so much whatever type or model you decide to get.
Apart from any technical discussion, if your general personal preference goes to robust looking products, I have just two more words (and a number) for you:
Seatec Gabbiano 77.
This is the gun I'm using, and since you kind of asked for my advise for buying a 75/80 gun, I think the most friendly, honest and open hearted advice I can give you is to get the same gun I have chosen for myself: Seatec Gabbiano 77.
Honestly I'd get a XXV Gold for a 90 (and I tried to explain why in a previous post), as I've been loving my XXV Gold 82 until it has been stolen, and I've never heard of any fragility issue related to this gun model. But if you have a preference for guns looking "sturdy", I'm afraid that a XXV (non Gold) 75 will look too skinny and Hi-tech to match your preference.
The Seatec, with its mass, all the metal parts, the stainless steel trigger and line release, the anodyzed alluminum castle, and the "retro" general look (it really looks like the old and glorious Omer Black Master's of the late 80's) is probably more likely to match your liking. It does not swing as fast as the XXV (but it tracks pretty sweetly anyway) and its accuracy is simply beyond description.
Your friend,
Spag

 

[Marwan]

i too can vouch for the gabbiano's performance, that thing is a lazer, great on side tracking, a bit heavier in up/down motion.. if you are interested i wrote a therad about it as a review..its a great gun,
so lets mess with your head some more Just kidding
like spago said, the omer might LOOK fragile but its far from it, same goes for cressi , one of my friends has a cressi apache for over 12 years, no problemo.. i agree that the rabis and rob allen could be sturdier, but that doesnt mean the omers and cressis are fragile..
so lets narrow down your choices a bit:
1 - The rob Allen: On the plus side, youre already used to it and have access to its spare parts, rubber etc..down side is its a tad longer (could be bad for your viz) then your requirement and slightly heavier tracking versus the cressi and omer (not too much in my opinion)
2 - The cressi: Proven , cheap, light, cheap spares, downside is that its aluminum, SO what..
3 - XXV/XXV gold, super light, excellent for fast tracking, sturdy, very nice muzzle..downside could be price
4 - Seatec gabbiano: laser accurate, great sturdy gun, i love the muzzle, line release, and trigger/handle, downside could be the up and down motion, and depending on where you are, price..

if you look at these 4 choices, i think any of them are really a good choice..you basically have to weigh out the pros and cons for your liking...
cheers

 

[Mr. X]

Spaghetti, thank you for the heartfelt advice, I truly appreciate it. However, I have already decided -- and you probably already realise that I tend to agonise over such things (esp. when nobody has anything in stock - prolonging the process:head), although not as much as I once might have. I like the look of Gabianno barrel & the tough contruction would be positive for my 80 or 90cm gun -- but this time, as you reminded me, I am looking for a small, light "Dorset gun" with exceptional tracking. Clive's timely comments confirmed the need for a short gun. As I can't get 70cm from euro-makers a 75cm gun with exceptional tracking is next best. How is exceptional tracking achieved? Have you guessed my decision yet?

Marwan, thanks. The RA 70 would be shorter than most options and would be my first choice but is unavailable (except in a very expensive carbon + RA reel combination - two or threes times the price of the other options considered, which seems excessive. I would have been willing to pay more for the RA but only half the price quoted). I have also been considering the Dessault 75cm recently reviewed by Podge & sourced by Glowworm (tri-cut point, mini-sharkfins, aluminium rail, dyneema wishbone option, the celebrated Dessault rubber and attractive, modern styling with low profile loading pad). The Dessault 75 is a very interesting option with what sounds like a superb spear.

In fact my decision this week came down to the Dessault & the Omer XXV.(Re. the Comanche I'd heard of a few robustness issues with it and was unable to find the site which had the great deal on them). In truth, I think I had already decided before learning of the Dessault option and once the decision was made I was reluctant to change. The Dessault sounds like a superb gun &, had I encountered it earlier, I might have chosen it, as it is more like my railgun in many regards. I plan to get the regular Omer XXV (carbon but no reel, no rail). Italian, so hopefully you will be ok with that Spaghetti? In a way, I was looking for something between your 77 & 60cm guns - a compromise.

My reasoning is as already stated: it boiled down to getting a 75cm with the compactness and tracking abilities of a smaller gun (a 70cm). The Omer XXV is exceptional in using both an unusually short spear (well illustrated by OMD above) and an unusually thin barrel. While not cheap, without the rail & reel, it is remarkably affordable, if you shop around. If the exchange rates & availability were better, I might have gone for the Gold as I like rails but everyone tells me they don't make any significant difference in smaller sizes (although I am used to loading with the help of a rail so might miss it at first) & 75 is definitely a smaller size. A rail would also increase drag & weight slightly. I suspect/hope the XXV will track even better than a 70cm RA - but as a side benefit it has not sacrificed any range to achieve that, should clearer water be encountered. Also I recalled a comment Mark L., the US Omer importer, made on the forum about the new slimmer handle used on several Omer models being several years more advanced than the older models (or competition). As a lot of new technology is rubbish, it wouldn't be significant factor for me - but it is nice to have (I hope!). Besides, two of my spearing heros use them, OMD & Mundial (the mullet :king). I do have some concerns about robustness but I'm hoping Omer parts will be easy to come by if needed.

 

[Spaniard]

I am fascinated by the history of speargun development in Europe, I have no experience of the USA guns. The mid-handled guns of 70's and 80's were almost exclusively pneumatics, Nemrord made Gaucho and Tiburon mid-handled rubber guns but the rubbers were shite! Was the handle placement purely for ease of loading? Was it a balance thing as the air chamber was always rear of the trigger mechanism? In the UK there was never a conscious choice as no-one made guns here, you bought what was available in UK, very little or bought guns when abroad, which was whatever Cressi, Nemrod, Dessault etc, were selling. There was a time here when just about everyone used the the Mares Sten guns... I used to get asked to supply replacement parts for these guns when I was in business by 60 year old guys who had never changed their guns! Now, thankfully, we have a much wider choice; those old boys are still catching plenty of fish with those old guns though...

 

[Mr. X]

The deed is done. The Omer XXV is ordered & paid for. Scubaland.fr had the best price & shipping cost but no stock:duh so I ordered it from Italy (happy Spaghetti?) on eBay. Although I'm quite patient & the exchange rates are particularly poor for both $ & £ against the euro currently, I decided to buy now as (1) the railgun is out of action, (2) having made a decision I felt good about, I didn't want to risk going through all that again and (3) exchange rates can always get worse.

Spaniard, I think Pastor has got everyone thinking about these mid-handled guns. Somebody just started a thread with a picture of a short, double band powered mid-handled gun that looks like it would work well today. You could always upgrade the rubbers to something more modern - Dessault bulk rubber, for example (also much talked about recently). Impressed that folk are using the same speargun for decades (although the manufacturers & resellers probably aren't).

 

[strangelove]

X Great choice !

The dessault gun looked pretty but, the trigger safe system looked kind of strange, specially if you have a mixed set of guns on your suite of gun.