Paleolithic diet" and freediving >< problems?

[avidag]

[FONT=&quot]Next week I`ll meet three divers which are extremely physically active, but they are on a "Paleolithic diet" (protein &fat but no[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] carbohydrates[/FONT]), and I`m alert. They work on fat instead of carbohydrates(low CO2). Few years ago I had person on similar diet (no carbohydrates) and he had problems with the contractions >>> they appeared late ( two contractions and he was in small samba).[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Does anyone here have any [/FONT]Experience[FONT=&quot] with this?
Thenks
[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Andrey[/FONT]

 

[growingupninja]

Re: Paleolithic diet" and freediving &gt;&lt; problems?

Much freediving literature talks about foods in the diet that make blood acidic or basic in pH, which in turn affects CO2 buffering. According to that logic a paleo diet which is very heavy in animal protein would definitely push blood pH to an extreme. I wonder if that is what is happening? Please post results/observations.

 

[avidag]

Re: Paleolithic diet" and freediving &gt;&lt; problems?

Much freediving literature talks about foods in the diet that make blood acidic or basic in pH, which in turn affects CO2 buffering. According to that logic a paleo diet which is very heavy in animal protein would definitely push blood pH to an extreme. I wonder if that is what is happening? Please post results/observations.

I think that the most realistic problem is the low production of CO2 because of fat burning and almost total absent of carbohydrates. ( 30% lower co2 production for the same energy production when you are on fat and no carbohydrates)​

 

[Phil34289]

Actually I do. I'm on it as well. It's not literally no carbs but it is a low carb diet. It mainly focuses on vegetables, meats and fishes, things of that nature and skipping processed foods.

They focus on fat because fat helps you become full by making the food tastier. Also fat helps you burn other fat, I know it's ironic but that is how it works.

Paleo Cookbooks – Complete Paleo Recipe Guide To Healthy Eating | Cook Like a Cave Man

This is the one that I am on. Definitely something that I would recommend to someone else because it really does work, and it doesn't take much to follow. It's just an adjustment to your lifestyle.

 

[anthropisces]

My diet is high in saturated fats including meats with tons of fat, lots of vegetables with still more fat, and low in carbs (but not devoid of them). I went on this diet after I experienced a very weird set of symptoms several years ago. I did a lot of experimenting with diet and have found this Paleo type diet to be the one I feel best on.

I can't say for sure what its effect is on my freediving; I'm still experimenting. I've been experimenting with eating a sweet-potato before a day of diving to up to 30 meters.

I can't say for sure how I'd judge the effectiveness of my diet. I only know that I feel better than if I eat carbs, which make my skin itchy and cause other problems if I eat them for long enough.

 

[hogphish]

Paleo is an alkaline diet. Typically it involves 35% protein, 32-33% fat and 32-33% carbs. The carbs have a low glycemic index and load. High protein diets affect BP in a beneficial manner. The LCKD (low carb ketogenic diet) will cause more of an acidosis. This diet entails less than 20 grams of carbs per day (about 1 slice of bread or 1 apple). This is a great diet for overweight consumers but not freedivers. Paleo may seem low carb but only in relation to the poisonous diet of 60% carbs that most modern humans have assumed as the new "normal". This is the leading cause for metabolic syndrome and its sequela. It was theorized that we need to consume 120 grams of carbs daily based solely on brain metabolism...we can however manufacture this amount in the liver and kidneys on a fat/protein diet only. This is a rapidly expanding field of research and study. The old theory of a high carb diet for freedivers prior to competition needs rethinking. The key is glycemic control over a long period of time since insulin inhibits lypolysis (fat breakdown through oxidation).

 

[anthropisces]

I'm trying not to go too far overboard. I'm moving toward a small sweet potato every day, a decent amount of saturated fat from coconut oil or meat (mostly lamb), and protein from the meat, with lots of (rather heavily) cooked vegetables thrown in the mix. Raw vegetables and fruits don't seem to agree with me.

 

[growingupninja]

Re: Paleolithic diet" and freediving &gt;&lt; problems?

The calorie breakdown Hogphish is describing is close to the 'zone' diet, although I don't think zoners consider glycemic index... I have roughly followed it my adult life. Started when as an age group comp swimmer I read studies about the Stanford University swim team, many of whom were on the US Olympic team. They had great success with that diet and we called it the Stanford diet back then. Formerly swimmers were encouraged to eat a diet that was extremely high carb, middling protein, and low fat...

 

[efattah]

As someone mentioned, if your diet puts you in fat burning mode, your RQ=0.70 vs. 0.95 for carb burning, meaning almost 30% lower CO2 production. Thus, on a fat burning diet, you MUST breathe much less before starting the apnea, otherwise the effect is almost like hyperventilation.

Note that all marine mammals dive with RQ=0.70 (100% fat burning and low CO2 production). I guess when a seal holds his breath for half an hour on an exhale, there is not much place for the CO2 to go, so producing less of it is good.

 

[Tommy_R]

But isn't the oxygen consumption higher in fat burning mode ( 8% more oxygen used as far as i know ).

The maximum breathhold should be shorter in fat burning metabolism ?


Tommy

 

[hogphish]

There is a significant difference between the "fat burning diet" and the metabolic efficiency point of aerobic or fat burning heart rate (typically less than 60 % maximum heart rate).
A fat burning diet is a low carbohydrate diet that produces ketones. We normally have approximately 1200 to 2000 total calorie carbohydrate stores to provide energy. However we have an estimated 40-50,000 thousand calorie fat energy stores. To improve the fat burning capability we have to achieve long term glycemic control. The exercise issue is a fine balance of anaerobic and aerobic conditioning....fat burning vs carb burning. I personally think that the benefits of high intensity interval training combined with long term glycemic control through diet is the key to conditioning...not plodding on a tread mill at 60% heart rate. Then as free divers we go far beyond the average training regimes with hypoxic cardio. This is an area understudied.

 

[avidag]

Da......
lots of information about fat burning :king

but,
"not so much" about the consequences of combining freedive & "carbon free nutrition"
​

 

[hogphish]

That's called photosynthesis and when you figure how to do that let me know.

 

[anthropisces]

Not quite true...CO2 is involved in photosynthesis (thus not carbon free)

 

[avidag]

That's called photosynthesis and when you figure how to do that let me know.

You can start from recognizing that this information is great as algae fertilizer.
​

There is a significant difference between the "fat burning diet" and the metabolic efficiency point of aerobic or fat burning heart rate (typically less than 60 % maximum heart rate).
A fat burning diet is a low carbohydrate diet that produces ketones. We normally have approximately 1200 to 2000 total calorie carbohydrate stores to provide energy. However we have an estimated 40-50,000 thousand calorie fat energy stores. To improve the fat burning capability we have to achieve long term glycemic control. The exercise issue is a fine balance of anaerobic and aerobic conditioning....fat burning vs carb burning. I personally think that the benefits of high intensity interval training combined with long term glycemic control through diet is the key to conditioning...not plodding on a tread mill at 60% heart rate. Then as free divers we go far beyond the average training regimes with hypoxic cardio. This is an area understudied.

 

[hogphish]

I will try to make it simple for you Avidag..."fat burning diet". Produces ketones. Fat burning diet is acidotic. The decreased CO2 production or RQ .70 means less efficiency. CO2 production Is not a limiting factor for Freediving, it is the efficient utilization of O2. Acidosis shifts the oxyhemoglobin curve to unbind oxygen from hemoglobin which is fine if you are a trauma patient but not a free diver. Feed that to your algae.

 

[avidag]

I will try to make it simple for you Avidag..."fat burning diet". Produces ketones. Fat burning diet is acidotic. The decreased CO2 production or RQ .70 means less efficiency. CO2 production Is not a limiting factor for Freediving, it is the efficient utilization of O2. Acidosis shifts the oxyhemoglobin curve to unbind oxygen from hemoglobin which is fine if you are a trauma patient but not a free diver. .

I`ll tray to sharpen my question

As I see it, in the end, only two parameters are important >>

​

1. Will the person have the contraction on the same place (same place > compared to his limits-O2) as if he was on carbs`
2. Will the same person be able to extend his limits if he start working on carbs`
3. Will person how is on such diet for long time will be different in the parameters 1+2 compared to person how occasionally gets to fat burning condition

Is this less efficient ? is this more dangerous ?
​

 

[growingupninja]

Re: Paleolithic diet" and freediving &gt;&lt; problems?

Avidag, the first part of your question is rather moot. Contractions are not a very good way to judge whether a person is approaching their limit, paleo diet or not. They are incredibly individual and can change over the course of a day of diving and for the same diver on a day to day basis. I can experience strong contractions when my blood O2 is still high nineties and then after training/diving for hours may not really notice them until my blood O2 is in the eighties (actually getting a bit hypoxic). It easy for people to teach/talk about contractions but they are a very poor absolute when balancing safety and performance.

 

[avidag]

Re: Paleolithic diet" and freediving &gt;&lt; problems?

Avidag, the first part of your question is rather moot. Contractions are not a very good way to judge whether a person is approaching their limit, paleo diet or not. They are incredibly individual and can change over the course of a day of diving and for the same diver on a day to day basis. I can experience strong contractions when my blood O2 is still high nineties and then after training/diving for hours may not really notice them until my blood O2 is in the eighties (actually getting a bit hypoxic). It easy for people to teach/talk about contractions but they are a very poor absolute when balancing safety and performance.

I can understand your attitude. (and I promise to support you as much as I can, if >> you will put it in public as an independent post)
yet
The questions are not yet supported with answers.



​

 

[growingupninja]

Re: Paleolithic diet" and freediving &gt;&lt; problems?

Everything in my previous post is already public and studied. The mechanism is fairly well understood (at least as much as anyone understands dive response) so not sure what you mean? This is kind of a standard answer to a lot of questions about limits but pulse O2 meters are cheap and readily available these days. If you spend anytime training with one you will quickly see that onset of contractions is variable in regards to a diver's actual hypoxia, and this has important safety ramifications for divers, especially spearos and serial divers.

I hope you find answers to your questions.