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Paleolithic diet" and freediving >< problems?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Re: Paleolithic diet" and freediving &gt;&lt; problems?

Everything in my previous post is already public and studied. The mechanism is fairly well understood (at least as much as anyone understands dive response) so not sure what you mean? This is kind of a standard answer to a lot of questions about limits but pulse O2 meters are cheap and readily available these days. If you spend anytime training with one you will quickly see that onset of contractions is variable in regards to a diver's actual hypoxia, and this has important safety ramifications for divers, especially spearos and serial divers.

I hope you find answers to your questions.
Thenx

I believe in humans, being able to control themselves precisely if they are self ewer. being able to answer question (voluntarily) yet precisely can be on step towards this aim. the next one can be controlling your hypoxia level when spear.:king​
 
Im on a very low carb and high fat diet. My freediving results are inconclusive. In september i made pb`s in CNF and CWT. Going back to the pool I end the dives with samba after 75% of earlier results. Contractions are softer. Less co2 production as stated, seems to fit well with my experience. I have even tried to load up on co2 by breathing sub normal and not exhaling totaly before the last breath. Did not work. I also do very high intensity weight training which can be a negative factor.
 
Experimenting with this as we speak. 64 hours ago I switched from the roughly 40/30/30 carb/fat/protein diet I have followed for decades to a true ketonic diet (less than 20 grams carbohydrate per day, primary calorie source is fat, protein adequate and nothing more).

I started the diet after a hard evening workout. First 36 hours were a little rough and worst at the 24hr mark--difficulty concentrating, depression, lethargy, etc. It evened out last night however after going to the gym. Moderate intensity exercise felt good but repeat high intensity training felt harder than usual. I only bought ketostix after I'd started feeling better and according to that measure I'm in nutritional ketosis. Currently I feel relatively normal. I am also probably eating about 10% fewer calories than I normally do. I will probably try to cycle to a carb day about once a week, and start testing to see if glutamine supplementation kicks me out of ketosis. Incidentally I did a brief apnea bike CO2 set last night at the gym. My legs were already a bit gassed from some training last week, but I did feel like my CO2 tolerance was affected, although I need to give it a few days for my muscles to recover so I have a better baseline to test with.
 
Hi Lance.
Depending on your prior diet it can take weeks or even months before your body is completely adapted to burning ketones. So hang in there if it gets a bit tough. I think that a ketogenic diet would be ideal for many sports espessialy endurance activities. However most people quit before they become adapted. There are so many benefits of the paloeo lifstyle, my biggest problem is that people around me are a bit sick of me talking about it all the time :)

When it comes to freediving max performaces and gym training I have a little carb before and after (one banana).

Keep us posted Lance.
 
Thanks, Steiner. I think I am through the worst of it and yesterday did a gym workout that is pretty normal for me. The strict ketogenic high fat/no carb thing is weird but seeing as my previous diet was actually pretty close to the meat/nuts/berries paleo thing, I guess it wasn't a huge leap for my body. The diet is certainly interesting. My energy levels are much more even and I don't experience hunger the same way; during periods of heavy training I used to wake up around 3a every morning, ravenously hungry, and need to eat a meal in order to go back to sleep. Last night I slept and woke without even feeling hungry.

I will go to the pool and see how I feel with some hypoxic cardio, which is something I haven't done since starting this test.
 
Okay, update. Pool lap swim schedule had changed so no pool today. I may go and do some light medium cardio at the gym and basically rest today.

Very interesting though on a quick no warm-up static test: I did 3 minutes suppine dry static wearing pulse O2 meter. No contractions the entire time, no bradycardia or vasoconstriction either and sat O2 on the meter read 95% by the end... basically no dive response whatsoever. I would imagine that my metabolism has indeed shifted and I'm no longer generating anywhere near as much CO2 as I used to. While I have a pretty solid breath hold (6:44 white card in comp) I nearly always experience contractions around the 2 min mark, as well as very strong dive response on a no WU hold. I will do a 4 min no WU tomorrow and see what happens; that is my old benchmark.
 
If this prevents you from generating CO2, you'll convert me instantly!

I already like the diet and it works well for me... But I'm not strict.

If you tell me that statics and long swims will be less torturous.... I'll eat ANYTHING!!! :D
 
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Eh, so I went to the pool yesterday. It was crowded so I couldn't do any of my benchmark sets but I did some 50M swims on the 1:30, which is easy for me, as well as a few sprints. Contractions happened at much the same place while swimming; I do think that based on all this, in my case, elevated CO2 can trigger contractions/DR, and so being in ketosis for statics may reduce the amount of CO2 I generate, but ketosis doesn't seem to interfere with any real aquatic TRIGGERS (flowing water/cold water). And since it doesn't interfere with DR, it doesn't have much bearing when it comes to lactic acid generation in DYN. In general, I felt a bit lethargic and it took a lot of effort to maintain my usual pace, although I am also eating fewer than maintenance calories and haven't been on this particular diet for the recommended 3-4 weeks. So, apneaaddict, for me it has not made long swims easier.

Also went to the gym and did some apnea bike CO2 sets with similar results--no appreciable difference in my performance, and I was a little bit tired throughout although I could get through the set.

The delayed contractions in dry statics may be of use for a longer comfort phase when doing relatively shallow aspetto spearing dives, although that is not something that I find exciting or spectacularly useful. I will probably have time to do some proper dives next week.

*edit: one other thing though is that muscle recovery times are quite good. I have been doing resistance training while on this regimen and I feel like it has helped there, presumably because HGH and testosterone production is very high since there is no insulin to interferre.
 
More update... I had a swimming work gig scheduled for Sunday so I ate carbs (fruit and oatmeal) on Saturday night, so that I'd have plenty of energy to perform at a high intensity. Sunday morning I tested 'trace' on the ketostix. Plenty of muscle energy for many hours on Sunday, for very short bursts of activity. Static was also very comfortable. Didn't eat much because most all food on set was extremely carb heavy.

By Monday afternoon (36 hours after carbs) I was back in ketosis according to the ketostix. Also no headache or mental fog with the adaptation this time. Went spearing yesterday. Pretty typical day, lots of shallow, slow dives with short surface inteval (ie 10M to 15M). They all felt very easy. Went to some deeper water and did some 20M+ drops... they felt slightly harder than usual in the lactic sense.

Carb loaded after spearing, been eating carbs (70% of calories) for a total of about 28 hours, had a couple beers in there. Tomorrow will do some pool sets and see what is the difference. I do feel like I am fully 'keto adapted' at this point--it took 36 hrs at the beginning of the week to get back into ketosis and I didn't have brain fog or headaches, etc, when going back into it like during the initial metabolic shift, and I have had no difficulty with moderate intensity sustained exercise after the first 4 or 5 days. I didn't experience a lot of carb cravings.

Unfortunately, sustained sprint performance, and hypoxic apnea performance as well seems to be negatively affected. I'd say it took about 8 days from the initial start of the ketogenic diet before I felt 'normal' with the moderate intensity exercise as well as just sitting around.

Not sure if it's a training adaptation, but low intensity high CO2 work seems like it may be easier while in ketosis. This however is not useful for anything but a few very specialty apnea stunts where CO2 can be a limiting factor.

I probably won't continue on a strict ketogenic diet for much longer--my apnea performance (when truly hypoxic and working anaerobically, ie deep dives and competition) doesn't seem to be there, and it's kind of a pain to eat this way. A low carb (ie 40% of total calories) but not dramatically carb restricted diet (3% like my current keto diet) seems to have worked in the past and is easier for me to maintain, although I may try and experiment with a carb restricted diet for any meals immediately post exercise.
 
I am not 100% conclusive about the ketogenic thing but I'm feeling like it is lousy for serious apnea... Been experimenting with carb cycling, etc, but generally feel like while it's nice for some stuff (namely endurance, balanced energy,inflammation/fast recovery), it definitely doesn't help with anything DYN related. Did some 4 min breatholds on my O2 sat meter and felt like results were for the most part abysmal considering how much apnea training I've been doing.

I have been reading every study I can find related to EPO, insulin, ketosis, etc. They tend to be done on mice and in human subjects they are done on people with diabetes and various types of metabolic disfunction so results are not 100% applicable.... But a common theme is that EPO tends to regulate insulin sensitivity (the same thing keto/paleo diets are meant to address) in a huge way. It also seems that the catabolic state encouraged by ketosis is counter-productive to EPO generation and RBC increase. Assuming a hypoxic trigger, a lot studies point to the necessity of protein for EPO release (not surprising) and some seem to also indicate that just glucose alone will trigger EPO. Finally, a whole ton of studies seem to point to a very strong link between insulin and the stimulation of EPO. Keto diets lead to very, very low levels of insulin.
 
I've been doing the primal / keto thing as well for a few wks now.

It definitely is producing less CO2 for me, leading to easier medium-attempt breath holds and a more gradual / gentle onset of contractions.

Can't speak to max wet attempts yet, altho single-attempt dry training is looking positive.

Overnight muscular recovery doesn't seem as good, as compared to a high-carb post-workout feeding.

I don't find high fat and protein to be catabolic.

It eliminates my appetite and allows me to go 6-7+ hrs without eating before an apnea session, which really helps I think.

I think that hyperventilation and low CO2 production is not only very dangerous, but also really inhibits the dive response - so is not recommended.

This diet might kick my ass on Thursday after a vigorous UWH game though - will have to wait and see. Huskys can run an 2-week sled race full out just burning fat... So I should be able to swim flat out for an hr, right? ;)
 
I've been farting around with this for about a month. I feel like I'm fully 'keto-adapted'. It's terrific for anything endurance related while I'm breathing, aerobic exercise of any kind is incredibly comfy and I feel like I can go for ever, but I am going to start cycling off it since I feel like going further will be detrimental to apnea.

It might not be bad for U/W hockey where I imagine CO2 is a limiting factor but in my case it limits the amount of on-demand explosive power I have at my disposal, and changed the way deeper dives feel. The explosive power might be something missing for U/W hockey though. For general shallow spearfishing I've found it to be very comfortable. For deeper stuff and DYN sets I had to slow my pace down. For pool swimming, I feel like it definitely affected my lactic threshold in the speed sense more than in the distance sense. Normally, I can easily do UW 50's all day at a 1:1 pace going 42 sec swim + 42 sec rest. When in ketosis it feels better to do something more like 50 sec swim + 50 sec rest.

In regards to dry holds/statics, they are noticeably more comfortable when I am in a state of ketosis but based on my O2 sat meter I was burning much more O2, and experiencing very little dive response. I do still experience healthy dive response on dry dynamics and anything aquatic while in ketosis. For divers where CO2 is a limiting factor ketosis might be useful but it would seem to be safer from a limit to perspective to increase CO2 tolerance, even more-so given that CO2 is usually a limiting factor for new divers.

re: catabolic. Medically, ketosis is very much a catabolic state since anabolic hormones (those that promote fuel storage or muscle growth) such as insulin and testosterone are reduced, with insulin being the major one. HGH is probably increased a little bit since I think insulin blocks HGH. Cortisol is very much increased; cortisol + insulin is at the very least cosmetically bad although at the end of the day anabolic since it promotes fat storage but cortisol + HGH/super low insulin (ketosis) promotes fat burning, again a catabolic state.

Again, very little study on freedivers but there does seem to be positive correlation between insulin, glucose, and EPO production. True ketosis results in staggeringly low insulin and blood glucose. I don't necessarily think it has wrecked my freedive training since at least I was experiencing plenty of hypoxia and I don't feel like I have lost muscle when it comes to any resistance training but strict keto for apnea seems to limit the benefits (ie greater RBC production) and would also be poor for max attempts. Since fat cannot be used for energy without O2 ketoadaptation doesn't help competition freediving. Ketoadaptation which leads to greater metabolic efficiency is certainly not a bad thing in the long run, but extended training while in true ketosis doesn't seem smart. I also played around with cyclic and targeted keto but my performance when I was carb loaded doing some benchmark DYN sets wasn't anything stellar. In fasted rats (ie starved), EPO production was completely blocked. While it can be 'gamed' to some degree to spare muscle and such, and isn't necessarily unhealthly, the endocrine state of ketosis looks almost identical to starvation.

I saw my biggest apnea gains in the past when I ate what felt good to me, which was a diet high in various meats (seafood, red meat, whatever), no conscious fat restriction (although none of this adding huge dollops of lard to every meal like in a keto diet), very little cheese/milk although a fair bit of whey protein, limited much grain/bread, and with most carbohydrates coming from moderate to high GI fruits as opposed to veggies. I love my coffee although it appears to interfere with iron absorption, as does tea. Hence the whole 'cutting caffeine' for freediving is probably more rooted in the iron absorption aspect (which is likely the limiting factor for many serious divers when it comes to RBC generation) than in the actual caffeine aspect.
 
Have you tried beetroot juice?

no. I know it works but I'm not sure if it is legal for competition. I think in studies it showed some surprising benefit for DYN but for serial deep spearing it looks less effective and I don't see the reduction in BP as entirely safe in that situation.
 
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The adventure continues. Yesterday was first day back in the ocean on a line after starting the keto diet experiment. I'd been re-introducing low GI carbs (I had no hunger for them) the few days before, particularly after a hard workout. Still testing with ketostix and was surprised to see that I could actually eat a lot of carbs and remain in ketosis, but I was also working out hard--plyometrics/resistance + hypoxic cardio + aerobic for warmdown. Anyway, performance on the line was relatively good. The time in ketosis didn't seem to have hurt me and once I was diving again with some glycogen and under a non-keto metabolism performance returned and seemed more commensurate with the training I'd been doing while in keto.
 
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Played some flat-out (as centre, sprinting for each faceoff) UWH last night at 9:00-10:00pm.

My last meal (keto / no grainy carbs... Salad, olives / olive oil and 3 eggs with sprinkling of pumpkin and sun flour seeds) was at 1:00, with a handful of macadamia nuts around 4:00.

I had tons of energy and was as fast as ever, despite not having played in almost 2 mos (although the new fins4u K8 fins didn't hurt either!).

I felt like I was running the Ididarod!
It wasn't the performance nightmare I half-expected!
 
The main objective of this research was to determine the effects of a long-term ketogenic diet, rich in polyunsaturated fatty acids, on aerobic performance and exercise metabolism in off-road cyclists. Additionally, the effects of this diet on body mass and body composition were evaluated, as well as those that occurred in the lipid and lipoprotein profiles due to the dietary intervention. The research material included eight male subjects, aged 28.3 ± 3.9 years, with at least five years of training experience that competed in off-road cycling. Each cyclist performed a continuous exercise protocol on a cycloergometer with varied intensity, after a mixed and ketogenic diet in a crossover design. The ketogenic diet stimulated favorable changes in body mass and body composition, as well as in the lipid and lipoprotein profiles. Important findings of the present study include a significant increase in the relative values of maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max) and oxygen uptake at lactate threshold (VO2 LT) after the ketogenic diet, which can be explained by reductions in body mass and fat mass and/or the greater oxygen uptake necessary to obtain the same energy yield as on a mixed diet, due to increased fat oxidation or by enhanced sympathetic activation. The max work load and the work load at lactate threshold were significantly higher after the mixed diet. The values of the respiratory exchange ratio (RER) were significantly lower at rest and during particular stages of the exercise protocol following the ketogenic diet. The heart rate (HR) and oxygen uptake were significantly higher at rest and during the first three stages of exercise after the ketogenic diet, while the reverse was true during the last stage of the exercise protocol conducted with maximal intensity. Creatine kinase (CK) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) activity were significantly lower at rest and during particular stages of the 105-min exercise protocol following the low carbohydrate ketogenic diet. The alterations in insulin and cortisol concentrations due to the dietary intervention confirm the concept that the glucostatic mechanism controls the hormonal and metabolic responses to exercise.

Hi Guys, I just bumped into this discussion because I was researching it myself and I found the above text. I think the conclusion of a ketogenic diet is that the blood can hold more oxygen, which should be a good thing for us freedivers.

I personally have found myself to feel a lot calmer and more peaceful on a diet with lots of fat.

Magnesium oil really helps for this purpose also.

However its my personal opinion that your glands have to be functioning properly before you remove too many carbs or protein. If we have a problem with our Adrenals or thyroid you cannot do the ketogenic diet. A lot of people have problems with their adrenals these days. This has to be solved first.
 
Hi Guys, I just bumped into this discussion because I was researching it myself and I found the above text. I think the conclusion of a ketogenic diet is that the blood can hold more oxygen, which should be a good thing for us freedivers.

Not really sure about that, I concluded the opposite. It was spectacular for low intensity aerobic endurance (relaxed kayaking for 10 hour stretches on not much more than nibbles of keto dark chocolate fudge), and okay for relaxed spearing for instance which would translate to recreational freediving, but I was much more hypoxic on long holds and higher intensity serial work.

While I could find no studies that examined O2 carrying capacity of blood or EPO (ie hematocrit) of athletes in ketosis vs glycogen fueled athletes, the hormone shift of ketosis doesn't seem to promote RBC production to anything more than 'normal' levels. It isn't negative enough to matter for breathing sports but there also seemed to be a change O2 binding for static holds--in tests I did I was very, very comfortable but I burned through O2 at the beginning of the hold much quicker than normal.

Diet is something highly individual and it seems to be terrific for general fitness, especially compared to alternatives, so not to knock it unduly but it wasn't magic for freediving, and for diving at or near limit it was detrimental.

One interesting thing which I discovered however was that in a typical 'day' of hard spearing I can stuff myself on carbs the night before and in the morning, and eat fruit throughout the day, and be in full blown ketosis (as tested by strips) by the end of the day, and after experimenting with the diet I realized this has been going on all along even before messing with this diet. Not surprising since a 'day' of spearing might involve 6-8 hours of constant hypoxic cardio, and it all lines up with apnea in keto--long easy statics, no hunger, reduced ability for very deep ascents, etc. When I consider my results on an O2 sat meter I also think it accounts for why there seems to be a disproportionate number of fatal BO's for spearos 'at the end of the day': when in full ketosis, comfort increases for statics + extremely low intensity apnea but the body is burning O2 at a faster than usual rate.
 
Im still on a low carb high fat diet. It is great for everyday life, but my max dives are not as long as they used to be. Did You try loading up on carbs before Max atempts Lance?
 
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