Parapsycho warnings in the water? Anyone?

[gerard]

Originally posted by CEngelbrecht
Nah...

I don't buy that there should a spiritual bond between all biological beings with a nervous system. If there were, humans wouldn't be born as carnivors (well, omnivors). If parapsycho phenomenon is more than just personal hysteria, if we're potentially able to pick up abnormal spinal-electrical activity (in air or water), then it's just a weird side-product to us being born as pack animals, this then enlarged by this big computer our nervous system (ie. brain) has evolved into.

But now we're moving into philosophy...

Chris Engelbrecht, Copenhagen

Chris, I was discussing philosophy since Science will be always limited by the human mind. You may say that philosophy is limited by the human mind too. Fair enough. However intuitive perception and seeing with the third eye as a result of meditative practices is something very different. If you meditate after a period of time (usually long) you'll realise that physical reality is just a dellusion created by the mind. Another path would be experimenting with mind altering drugs, i.e. mescal, LSD, mushrooms, etc. like Huxley's description in The Doors of Perception (1954), or Castaneda's in Teachings of Don Juan (1968). Castaneda also mentions the life force concept (qi/chi) in Tales of Power which was discovered by Taoists let's say thousands of years ago, since there is not a fixed date. Personally, I wouldn't recommend to experiment with drugs due to obvious health reasons.

I hope I have explained myself.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

We might actually be talking about the same thing, but still my interpretation is that the Chinese/Indian Qi is no supernatural force that connects all biological individuals, it's the electricity in the nervous system of the individual, which in humans through various exercises like yoga meditation or kung fu traditions can be brought into a more suitable equilibrium.
The traditional 'third eye' of the forehead is no more than increased electrical activity in the front areas of both brain halves, which is where cognitive and imaginary thinking lies. This 'eye' has absolutely no contact what so ever with anything beyond the immediate human sphere, or though these brain areas quite easily can fool its individual into thinking so.
If humans is really able to pick up another individuals' neural electricity, then it's a very vague method that evolution has only given us because we're a pack animal, and something that aparently we can't control consciously.
Personally, I don't believe science will ever be limited by the human mind, it's more the other way around.

Then again, it might all be hysteria...

 

[efattah]

Descartes showed that each individual can know one thing and one thing only--that he exists. So, you can prove that you exist, that has been established. However, beyond that you know nothing. There is no evidence that the physical world exists. Try to prove that we don't live in a 'matrix' like the matrix movies. If you are able to provide an argument that proves that the physical world exists, then you would win the nobel prize in either philosophy or physics. This is not 'fringe' theory, this is established mainstream. It is just that physicists don't often admit it--unless they need to explain away something, in which case they will quickly say that your experience was nothing but a hallucination--which is not surprising since the whole world could be one elaborate hallucination.

So, since we have no evidence that the physical world exists, then in all likelihood there are only minds, experience the same inter-related 'simulation.' If that is the case, it is not surprising that the minds might interact. In fact, perhaps there is only one mind, and each of our minds is just a subset of the giant mind. Thus, our individualities are only illusions, in fact we are all the same giant mind, and there is no physical world.

I once learned to visualize in 4 dimensions. There are quite a few people who have learned that recently, and the first person to prove they could visualize in 4D was the first guy who solved the 4D rubik's cube without macros (a 4D rubik's cube cannot exist, it can only be shown on a PC as a projection onto 3D).

However, once you learn to visualize in 4D, you will quickly understand that our concept of displacement between two objects is nothing but a fictional mental construct to reconciliate the fact that it takes a finite time to move from one place to another. As you delve deeper into this implication, it becomes obvious that what we perceive as the world has little or no bearing on what the world is really like. All we perceive is just sufficient to allow us to survive, when in fact the 'real world' is either something completely different or just fictional.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[gerard]

Originally posted by CEngelbrecht
We might actually be talking about the same thing, but still my interpretation is that the Chinese/Indian Qi is no supernatural force that connects all biological individuals, it's the electricity in the nervous system of the individual, which in humans through various exercises like yoga meditation or kung fu traditions can be brought into a more suitable equilibrium.
The traditional 'third eye' of the forehead is no more than increased electrical activity in the front areas of both brain halves, which is where cognitive and imaginary thinking lies. This 'eye' has absolutely no contact what so ever with anything beyond the immediate human sphere, or though these brain areas quite easily can fool its individual into thinking so.
If humans is really able to pick up another individuals' neural electricity, then it's a very vague method that evolution has only given us because we're a pack animal, and something that aparently we can't control consciously.
Personally, I don't believe science will ever be limited by the human mind, it's more the other way around.

Then again, it might all be hysteria...

Eric's post is also very clarifying, but let me ask you something else (however I don't want to enter into the realm of I am better than you, or you're wrong and I am right since they lead nowhere):

Do you meditate?

I guess you do as shown in your avatar. If so for how long every day? And how long have you been doing it?


Last thing:

You're quoting Bruce Lee, who took those words from Tao Te Ching, one of the Taoist classic texts. By quoting Lao Tzu you're contradicting yourself.

The entire section is the following:


THE WAY OF WATER

Great good is said to be like water,
sustaining life with no conscious striving,
flowing naturally, providing nourishment,
found even in places
which desiring man rejects.

In this way
it is like the Tao itself.

Like water, the sage abides in a humble place;
in meditation, without desire;
in thoughtfulness, he is profound,
and in his dealings, kind.
In speech, sincerity guides the man of Tao,
and as a leader, he is just.
In management, competence is his aim,
and he ensures the pacing is correct.

Because he does not act for his own ends,
nor cause unnecessary conflict,
he is held to be correct
in his actions towards his fellow man.

 

[Alun]

if you think 4 dimensions is bad, then try 5. i spent over 3 years studying five dimensional spacetime for my doctorate... great way to develop a splitting headache :head many theoretical physicists now believe we live in a 11-dimensional universe :duh

 

[gerard]

Originally posted by Alun
many theoretical physicists now believe we live in a 11-dimensional universe :duh

Why do you have to squeeze your brains so much when by just emptying your mind during meditation and with practice and persistance you'll start to see how things really are. Like surface the pond with stirred waters, once they start to settle down you will see the bottom.

Simplicity is easier to understand that hundreds of complex equations.

 

[YakDiver]

I always worked overtime, but one afternoon I told my mate I was going home early "what for he said" "I don't know, but I have something to do" I left work at 4.15 PM and when I got home I found out my father died at 4.00 PM .......... weird or what
YakDiver

 

[gerard]

Ydiver, that's called ESP.

 

[Ulf]

What is ESP?

 

[gerard]

Do a google search

 

[gerard]

OK. Check this:

http://www.meta-religion.com/Paranormale/Telepathy/telepathy.htm

 

[Fondueset]

Non-spearing

I did a few experiments with carrying/not carrying a speargun. In fact I did them several times within minutes of eachother in the same place. Results as mentioned by EF awhile back in the thread - no fish, fish, no fish etc. This was when I was quite young and first experiencing 'conscience' in regard to spearfishing. I also entered the water with an unloaded speargun - then cleared my mind of the intent to spearfish - and went in with a loaded gun - fish. I reasoned that I could manipulate my intent if I so chose but my preference then as now is to move with a larger sense of things. So now - if I needed to spearfish for food - I would - trusting that if the need was part of the larger movement game would show. This experiment was the end of my purely recreational spearfishing.

Gerard - I believe you are mistaken in your implied criticism of those who work intensively with the mind. It is a predilection and an art - one of many, many forms of expression. At a given point the mind changes orientation.
It is none of our place to find fault with the predilections of others.
It may be worth your while to read 'The Philosophy of Consciousness Without an Object' by Franklin Merrell-Wolff. His language is a bit classical in it's formulation - but he was a brilliant mathemetician and scholar as well as a realized jnanin. His work 'Introceptualism' is a fierce meal for the mind (also, I think, privately published - I got my copy at his home in the high sierras)

For me entering into the water is itself a meditation. Often it feels as though the residues and patterns of the world remain on the surface - like an oily film lifted off by the sea (you can try to take them with you, but they want to float) - the senses are saturated and the mind stretched between them in the long pause between breaths - thus moved in all ways to attend to space - a disruption of our digital conditioned attention. There are many components of Tantric meditation implicit in freediving.

As for the world - kinda like a venetian blind - or a strange poem..
Uni-verse

 

[gerard]

Re: Non-spearing

Originally posted by Fondueset
Gerard - I believe you are mistaken in your implied criticism of those who work intensively with the mind. It is a predilection and an art - one of many, many forms of expression. At a given point the mind changes orientation.

The mind itself leads to nowhere. Quietening the mind in meditation will show you things that a thinking mind can't. Also the mind is the root for many existencial problems.

And about those who use the mind to make a living it doesn't concern me. They're free to do what they want. The flow of life will still continue with or without them.

Take care.

 

[Fondueset]

Of course

It is one thing to say or believe the mind leads nowhere - and another to recognize this directly.

A problem with many traditional meditative approaches is that they impose a model upon the psyche which can create a layer over the naturally arising contours of the individual. One's personal enquiry then endeavors to emulate the dictates and expectations of the system which, however great it's fidelity, is still relatively untrue.

The Advaitin; Jean Klein - speaks of what he calls 'the blank state' - which is a willed stillness sometimes arrived at via various progressive approaches - that is in fact a stilling of the mind - but contains almost no potential. Like the conventional mind - stilling it, in and of itself; leads nowhere.

In his book "Yoga; The Technology of Ecstacy" Georg Feuerstein makes the interesting point that all 'paths' are models of reality only. An obvious enough observation - but still; worth keeping in.. mind....

 

[neshamah]

hi

Originally posted by YakDiver
I always worked overtime, but one afternoon I told my mate I was going home early "what for he said" "I don't know, but I have something to do" I left work at 4.15 PM and when I got home I found out my father died at 4.00 PM .......... weird or what
YakDiver

_______________

YarDiver something similar happen to me- the day before my grandmother die- for the all night while I was slepping I was hearing a very beatiful song- Cristian song- part of the song said "Keep on going"

very early in the morning when I wake up I received a call from cuba saying my Grandma die-

althought I was sad- there where a peace in me-

I know It was God preparing for this -

something that happen There is a Creator that care for us---

 

[gerard]

Re: Of course

Originally posted by Fondueset
The Advaitin; Jean Klein - speaks of what he calls 'the blank state' - which is a willed stillness sometimes arrived at via various progressive approaches - that is in fact a stilling of the mind - but contains almost no potential. Like the conventional mind - stilling it, in and of itself; leads nowhere

How are you so sure?

Try stilling your thinking mind in meditation and you'll trigger latent areas of your brain, sooner or later. I should say later because it takes a long time and practice.

Once you open the doors of perception via meditation (or experimenting with certain substances that I don't recommend due to obvious health concerns) by stopping the action thought and other senses (smell, sight and hearing), you'll eventually connect to different realities, including the spiritual.

The event that you described on the beach on another thread could be classified as the beginning of an astral trip). Ohm chanting has powerful relaxing effects and quickly helps to open certain chakras as well as limiting the role of the busy adrenal cortex in our perception of the world.

Take care

 

[Fondueset]

Sure

I'm referring to something pretty specific in that last post - which occurs when stilling the mind becomes an end in itself. A mistake which is not uncommon. I felt the emphasis on stilling the mind in some of these posts needed a caveat. Perhaps not necessary but at one point it was a huge help to me.

In the case of substances it's been my impression that your guardian angel takes a bit of a vacation, so to speak, at such times. I agree - best not.

Be interested to know what specifically you are studying - and with whom - pm me if you like.

 

[sinkweight]

I know this thread has gone from "spine-chiller" to "fish-killer", but just to sandwich some more info on the subject of instinctual/mental/electrical-field fish/spearfisher theories (wow, that's a lot of slashes)....

In, what I remember to be (not personally), the 1900's to 1920's or so, there was a feller who owned a so-called smartest horse in the world.

What made that horse so smart? He supposedly knew how to do basic math. The owner would gather a crowd of scientists and what not (early American scientists, mind you) and would show flash cards of math problems to the horse. To get the horse to initiate the problem solving, he'd read the flash card aloud to the horse and tell the horse to stomp whatever number the answer was. For example "What is 4+4?". The horse would look around at the onlookers, in the casual way a horse does, and proceed to stomp eight times.

Naturally, this shocked and amazed the small medical crowd, thus research quickly entailed. They [Professional animal researchers] examined and tested the horse's mental capacity, as well as other horses', too. After a while they realized that the horse, though not a terribly stupid animal, was just not a genius after all. The equine trickster had somehow been conditioned to read minute anticipatory reactions in the onlookers, thus knowing when to stop, as the peoples eyes, faces, body language, and the like all settled when the correct amount of hoofing was applied.

Its small things like this that lower animals are blessed with to help them cope without as much logic about their surroundings. I'd imagine it's a pinch of eye connectivity thrown into the electrical sensory conditions that a lot of animals seem to have.

(That's what I think a lot of conscious people feel left out on, personally)

Animals that see all tend to look for, or avoid, eye contact with prey or predator. That's why snakes, bugs, fish, larger cephalopods, and the like, camouflage their eyes (or develope false, or mimicked blank-stare, or scary eyes) for better stalking or hiding.

As for the whole preminition thing, I've had some freaky-deeky shiznit happen more than twice to know that, when in tune, one can tell when something bad is about to happen, if it hasn't already started happening. That's not too wierd to discuss at all.

One's train of logic in explaining it might be. Which is why I'm leaving this reply as is. Good subject. Don't feel strange for having a useful "gift".

 

[gerard]

Re: Sure

 

[gerard]

Originally posted by Fondueset
Be interested to know what specifically you are studying - and with whom - pm me if you like.

Tao & Zen. Still sitting meditation, ZhanZhuang. Taiji (Chen), Bagua. I am currently learning Taiji from a instructor of master Chen Xiao Wang.

I am also willing to explore esoteric stuff like Taoist internal alchemy.

BTW, a good start to understand Eastern philosophy from a Western point of view would be these two books. They make an enjoyable reading:

In Search of the Miraculous: Fragments of an Unknown Teaching (The Teachings of G.I. Gurdjieff) & The Fourth Way. Author: P.D. Ouspensky.


Take care, Gerard.