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Parapsycho warnings in the water? Anyone?

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Gurdjieff and random

Read Ouspensky and Gurdjieff - also bennet etc. Still Love Beelzebub's tales which, when you're not reading it, makes one helluva doorstop . I liked Ouspensky's 'The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution' but otherwise found him a bit dry. One of my best friends was a close student of Pierre Elliot (raised in Ouspensky's house) and attended Claymont in West VA - a school founded by JG Bennet - a former brit Intel officer who met Gurdjieff in India and became a student of his.

Gurdjieff was a Sufi. (felt like I'd discovered something when I figured that out - but everybody just went - 'doh') They've got a whole thing about 'functioning in any atmosphere' (kind of like the Daoists - some schools anyway)...

I've been thinking of Bagua (very intentionally Daoist) myself but have been finding new depths in Taijiquan (Old Yang - Yang, Shou Hou - but I here good things about Chen - they say its the original - but others say it came from Wutang..who knows ) and also feeling a pull to work more with pranayam. It's a big plate, but it'll only hold so much, well.

fab dive today - made friends with a cormorant (posted elsewhere).

Namas te'
 
Re: Gurdjieff and random

Originally posted by Fondueset
I've been thinking of Bagua (very intentionally Daoist) myself but have been finding new depths in Taijiquan (Old Yang - Yang, Shou Hou - but I here good things about Chen
Click to expand...

Of course taiji is a lifetime practice. Just read master Chen's following article about the 5 levels of Taiji:

http://www.tai-chi-centre.com/chen.htm


My interest in Bagua is because it involves fast movements moving in a circle. It's more of a workout. Taiji is more moving meditation, which I enjoy at night, to relax myself from living in society.

Take care and all the best in your Taiji practice. Don't give it up like many do because it takes so long to master it.

Gan bei.
 
Long

It does indeed take awhile - but I reserve the right to drop it without so much as a bye bye note if the spirit moves me

So far it's been pretty interesting for about 28 years - but all relationships are temporary.

theres a form within the form - and you may have heard of this - to me it's been called 'the waving form' - it arises within the structure of any legitimate Taijiquan sequence - but consists of a quite different way of doing ithe same movements.

The movements end up being less defined - never really fully outwardly manifested - and the speed becomes variable because it follows the inner movement - which could be described as a wave moving from the feet out into the hands - usually. It feels like cresting waves of sensation to me and is sort of ecstatic - really completely engaging. Say my form takes half an hour at a slightly fast pace - the waving form would be 1 or 2 hours plus slow - or around 12-14 minutes fast. You can't really get to it though without sensitivity, skill and awareness of the possibility. I don't allways do it that way - depends on what everything wants. Most people who knew a little, watching someone doing it, would think they were sloppy, or had something wrong with them.

The form I do is quite long and expresses Fa-jing (hence fairly 'vigorous". But done as waving form this is no longer necessary. (Bagua is a bit like some Hatha asanas with the intense twisting - I also like the correlaction with the I-Ching and the whole idea of focusing on change.)

<could'nt follow the link you posted, but I did look up your teacher - real article for sure )

If it was between this stuff and freediving though...
 
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Re: Long


Life is temporary too. Clinging to freediving is another illusion as well. Same as Taiji, but in here you're prolonguing your life so you can cultivate your diamond spirit and carry consciousness after deatn. That's in essence Taoist belief plus the internal alchemy stuff (qi-jing-shen). In freediving you're risking an existence for the sake of temporary pleasure. This is only my personal opinion. Please don't feel offended.



Yes the formless form. Can't remember what Taoists call it in mandarin. Qi leads and you follow.



The movements end up being less defined - never really fully outwardly manifested - and the speed becomes variable because it follows the inner movement - which could be described as a wave moving from the feet out into the hands - usually. It feels like cresting waves of sensation to me and is sort of ecstatic - really completely engaging. Say my form takes half an hour at a slightly fast pace - the waving form would be 1 or 2 hours plus slow - or around 12-14 minutes fast. You can't really get to it though without sensitivity, skill and awareness of the possibility. I don't allways do it that way - depends on what everything wants. Most people who knew a little, watching someone doing it, would think they were sloppy, or had something wrong with them.

The form I do is quite long and expresses Fa-jing (hence fairly 'vigorous". But done as waving form this is no longer necessary. (Bagua is a bit like some Hatha asanas with the intense twisting - I also like the correlaction with the I-Ching and the whole idea of focusing on change.)

<could'nt follow the link you posted, but I did look up your teacher - real article for sure )

If it was between this stuff and freediving though... [/B][/QUOTE]









<could'nt follow the link you posted, but I did look up your teacher - real article for sure )

If it was between this stuff and freediving though... [/B][/QUOTE]
 
Re: Long


Life is temporary too. Clinging to freediving is another illusion as well. Same as Taiji, but in here you're prolonguing your life so you can cultivate your diamond spirit and carry consciousness after deatn. That's in essence Taoist belief plus the internal alchemy stuff (qi-jing-shen). In freediving you're risking an existence for the sake of temporary pleasure. This is only my personal opinion. Please don't feel offended.



Yes the formless form. Can't remember what Taoists call it in mandarin. Qi leads and you follow.



The movements end up being less defined - never really fully outwardly manifested - and the speed becomes variable because it follows the inner movement - which could be described as a wave moving from the feet out into the hands - usually. It feels like cresting waves of sensation to me and is sort of ecstatic - really completely engaging. Say my form takes half an hour at a slightly fast pace - the waving form would be 1 or 2 hours plus slow - or around 12-14 minutes fast. You can't really get to it though without sensitivity, skill and awareness of the possibility. I don't allways do it that way - depends on what everything wants. Most people who knew a little, watching someone doing it, would think they were sloppy, or had something wrong with them.

The form I do is quite long and expresses Fa-jing (hence fairly 'vigorous". But done as waving form this is no longer necessary. (Bagua is a bit like some Hatha asanas with the intense twisting - I also like the correlaction with the I-Ching and the whole idea of focusing on change.)

<could'nt follow the link you posted, but I did look up your teacher - real article for sure )

If it was between this stuff and freediving though... [/B][/QUOTE]









<could'nt follow the link you posted, but I did look up your teacher - real article for sure )

If it was between this stuff and freediving though... [/B][/QUOTE]
 
Re: Long


Life is temporary too. Clinging to freediving is another illusion as well. Same as Taiji, but in here you're prolonguing your life so you can cultivate your diamond spirit and carry consciousness after deatn. That's in essence Taoist belief plus the internal alchemy stuff (qi-jing-shen). In freediving you're risking an existence for the sake of temporary pleasure. This is only my personal opinion. Please don't feel offended.



Yes the formless form. Can't remember what Taoists call it in mandarin. Yi guides qi and the body follows, so movement is always changing, unpredictable. That's why Bagua IMO is closer to Tao than the other arts. But this is not always true. It's just my point of view. Need to practice for over 30 years to give a definite answer. And I have just started the Taoist degree.


Originally posted by Fondueset

<could'nt follow the link you posted, but I did look up your teacher - real article for sure )
Click to expand...


Weird. Have you checked that your cookies enable you to open that page. It works for me.


Take care.

BTW where are you from Canada or US?
 
ESP or extra sensory perception is when a person that you both have a closeness with each other speaks to you in your mind when they are physically far from you. I have it happen with me and the other person but it doesn't happen very often and you and the other person have to be really really close in your hearts for this to happen. If something important or catastrophic happens to either you or him/her, the other one will feel it also.
Doesn't happen very often at all, thank the universe that you had it with one of your loved ones...

Don't worry about the definitions or books, this just happens sometimes
 
Originally posted by harbin
thank the universe that you had it with one of your loved ones...
Click to expand...

We have it with every other ones as well. For instance, how do you feel every time you hear the news and talk war stories, killings and tragedies? Not good at all.

It's part of what Jung called the universal consciousness.
 
From Northern Michigan

So.

Freediving is a pretty intense discipline. It involves alot of skills which are also found in meditation and yoga. Working consciously with the breath, deep relaxation, intense concentration and, inevitably, increased sensitivity.

It is a place in our lives where we intentionally enter into a very different environment. Our capacity to exist in that environment directly depends on all the things above. Theres also a sense of wonder and joy and a stillness that comes with these things and drives the whole rig.

It seems pretty reasonable to me that as we step into the totality of the experience that this is, with the best of all our faculties and abilities brought into focus - or at the very least a shift into that very different context that is the underwater environment, we might encounter an unfolding of our senses and capacities. I don't think it really depends on pushing the limits or anything like that - but the openness and focus we bring to it which is really a function of the fact that we enjoy it - just simply that and the doing of it.
 
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Re: From Northern Michigan



Your way of thinking does not reflect that of others. Your approach to freediving is the soul approach, but freediving is also an sporting activity with competitions, regulations, sponsorships, media, and so forth. All of these factors will make that a number of freedivers see it in a different way as you do. There is nothing wrong with this approach either, it's simply different philosophies contained within the same glass.

Personally I love freediving with all my soul but I still think it's an unnatural activity for humans otherwise we would be living underwater. I recall here one of Tao Te Ching's paragraphs:

"He who has virtue is like a newborn child,
free from attack by those who dwell
in the way of nature, the way of the Tao.
The bones of the newborn child are soft,
his muscles supple, but his grip is firm;
he is whole, though not knowing he was born
of the creative and receptive way.
The way of nature is in the child,
so even when he shouts all day,
his throat does not grow hoarse or dry.
From constancy, there develops harmony,
and from harmony, enlightenment.
It is unwise to rush from here to there.
To hold one's breath causes the body strain;
exhaustion follows
when too much energy is used,
for this is not the natural way.
He who is in opposition to the Tao
does not live his natural years.
He who is in opposition to the tao does not live his natural years" (Stan Rosenthal's translation)

And you know that living according to It means living according to the rules of Nature.




BTW, what's your name? If I ask you this is becauseI like to deal with the person that's behind the tag.


Take care, Gerard
 
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Dao

I think your quote there is referring to the tendancy of human beings under stress to restrain the breath. Possibly also a counter to some of the more forceful yogas.

Consider that virtually all Yogas - be they Indic or Daoist involve manipulating, lengthening and suspending the breath at various times.

My experience, and that of others, seems to be that freediving is generally followed by a tremendous sense of well-being, ease and vitality as well as clarity of mind. You may be right, but the point is certainly debateable. Whether it tips over into being harmful I suppose would depend on one's motivation and sensitivity - in part. Alot of people say Taiji is bad for your knees. And there is certainly no question that martial arts practice is dangerous. No doubt for every successful practitioner there are a fair number who are not. Same with spiritual practice - which is also a form of competition in some circles (?!). Some branches of Hatha Yoga are famous for blowing out knees etc. And we've talked about how Qigong can go wrong.

There are also a number of schools of Daoism (as I'm sure you know) with widely differing recommendations in some respects. In some cases one could question whether they are oriented toward spiritual development or merely longevity, powers etc.
In my opinion a major issue with all 'paths' per se is that they are generally and from the get-go based on the presumption of a problem - which is quickly fed into the anticipation of a solution or goal.

That's why I think activities - like freediving - which require what might be called discipline - but are also based - from the begining - in an unalloyed sense of joy and exploration - have tremendous potential - a potential that can be realized in part because it is secondary - that is it arises in a context that is allready complete.

Anyway - we CAN hold our breath. And we want to see what's down there. I'd argue that it's as natural an activity as you could ask for. Moreover theres stuff built into it that enables all sorts of possibilities.

As for commercialization, competition, sport - all hard things to see but our friend Gurdjieff put it succinctly when he declared it a 'sacred duty' to "strive allways to combine the pleasureable with the profitable"

I've spent some time on a few Taiji/qigong and Yoga related web-sites. Frankly - in terms of friendliness, respect, willingness to help and genuinely celebrating the achievements of others - this is a way better place to hang out. It's as unpretentious and open-minded a community as I've seen anywhere.

Name's Chris

____________________________________________________


"...we Love the crocodile" -Australian Aboriginie asked about the significance of the crocodile to his people
 
Re: Dao

Originally posted by Fondueset
I think your quote there is referring to the tendancy of human beings under stress to restrain the breath. Possibly also a counter to some of the more forceful yogas.
Click to expand...

Chris, that little part of the quote wasn't intentional. You know about Taoist metaphors and all that stuff. That's only one translation of the many done on the TTC. It would be impossible to have an accurate translation of something written 2,500 years.

Originally posted by Fondueset


Consider that virtually all Yogas - be they Indic or Daoist involve manipulating, lengthening and suspending the breath at various times.
Click to expand...


However deep abdominal breathing (Yang) is more benefitial than emphasising in the exhalation part and possible retention (breathhold) if chosen, as it is Yin. Taoists will emphasise in the second aspect (breath retention, more water based like freedivers when they practise breathholding) and Buddhists in Yang (fire method). Personally I like fire method of breathing but gently without forcing it otherwise too much qi will be absorbed and problems will rapidly occur. I balance both aspects of the breathing sequence, however exhalation will be a bit longer, but not too Taoist.

Practising this way is safe for me, I don't want to screw my mind, emotions and my spirituality.




I love the sensation of being surrounded by salt-water (due to negative ion content, so high levels of qi), however being under it for too long is too Yin for me and not benefitial for my health. Again, each to its own. We are all different depending on the biochemical structure of our bodies shaped by Yin & Yang influence (and other factors such as Yuan Qi-prenatal).


Yes I know, the roads to Rome are numerous, some less tortuous than others. I choose economy so I like the soft approach.


Originally posted by Fondueset
As for commercialization, competition, sport - all hard things to see but our friend Gurdjieff put it succinctly when he declared it a 'sacred duty' to "strive allways to combine the pleasureable with the profitable"
Click to expand...

Those are mere illusions that deviate us from the real path...

Gurdjieff didn't reach Enlightenment so...

Gautama was one of the greatest teachers in mankind, same can be said of Lao Tzu and Confucius, and other Enlighthened Taoists


Gerard.

BTW how do you know that I live in the country mentioned below? I guess you have developed some sort of Jedi's powers after being involved with Tao for so long

____________________________________________________


"...we Love the crocodile" -Australian Aboriginie asked about the significance of the crocodile to his people [/B][/QUOTE]
 
Strictly speaking

There can be no deviation. Only a 'mistake in identity'.

Wasn't it confucious who started all that value judgement nonesense about yang being better than yin? They say our bodies grown more Yang with age.

Right now my fav pranayam is kapalabhati - which totally emphasizes the exhale.

The Buddhists seem closer to the Complete Reality school of Daoism. This makes more sense to me in the same way that, for example, you can stay down longer if you are interested in something down there - than if you are just all on about technique and how long. I'm fond of Dzogchen.

The yin-yang thing can get to be a balancing act that idealizes balance as something it is not - and strives for it in it's own terms. It is the context in which polarities arise that is interesting - and to which the paradox they are alludes. All these practices make me crazy if i don't have that first.

but alas.. I hold forth :duh

Know anybody who freedives off Tasmania?

If I lived in Australia it is unlikely I could sustain even the pretext of land-based existence.
 
Re: Strictly speaking



Chris, you still haven't answered my question of how you know that I live in this part of the world

Take care,


Gerard
 
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It is

Desire arises - it is not necessary to identify with it.
Heaven and Earth are still part of duality.

The Indic model of the three gunas has been popping into my head lately. It's interesting the Sattwa is not a product or result of Rajas and Tamas. At least insofar as I understand.

confucians brought value judgement to the game - and tried to reduce higher esotericism into terms they could allready comprehend. Essentially fundamentalism. I wonder if this trend toward a degredation via rationalization was endemic to that age at a global scale. Could be Could be.

I have a great translation of the I Ching and Ta Chuan by Karcher. He stripped out all the confucian commentaries and make a very clear interpretation of the Gua. He's got a couple out - mine is the thick one Sounds like you may allready have some mandarin - but as I understand it translating Classical chinese is whole different barrel of eels.

No Idea - just popped into my head to post the Abo quote.

Hope to dive there one day.

I love the long wave I sense with those people. It is hard to explain.
 
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I have to agree w/ the theory that our body language or perhaps electrical impulses or possibly odor alerts animals to our intentions. I spearfish quite a bit and do know if I act agressive towards a fish it usually runs. Even when I try to act "normal" they still run at times. Perhaps they can sense electrical impulses from us. As our hearts speed up and our brain goes into overdrive preparing for the kill. Also the dogs that can sense epilectic fits, it's thought that the body starts producing odors from the chemical imbalances in the body. We can't sense this but w/ their great sense of smell they might. If you've been around some terminally ill people there are certain diseases that you can definately smell b/c of what's going on in their body. Also the horse reacting to body language the man didn't even realize he was doing is a good example of animals picking up on things we don't even recognize. We do the same thing to ourselves. Alot of times people think and say a particular task will turn out bad and subconsiously cause this by their own actions. And then say they "knew" or had a "feeling" it was going to fail.
I think we should be careful trying to bring animals to our level or even trying to put each other on the same level. I have my own ideas why these things happen but will keep them off here.

Just an interesting side note, as seen from prievious posts, if Christianity is brought up the way these ideas have been there would be a raging debate going on by now w/ people getting flamed all over the place. This is after all a thread basically about Eastern philosphy/religion. Interesting, very interesting.
Jay
 
Good points Jay - and a theory

My interest in Daoism - Yoga etc. is not in essence religious. From this position the focus is on esotericism which, in my opinion, is more about technology and direct experience than belief.

In any case - this conversation hasn't caught fire because we're really not talking about belief per se - more theory, technique and observation. The gold standard for all yogic technology - be it Buddhist, Daoist, Indic, Tibetan etc. is direct experience.

The context of a successful hunt is an interesting subject. Sadly here we are not allowed to spear anything edible - and I (again - personally) am not comfortable hunting things I can't eat. That said I still think stalking game under water on a held breath is an absolute blast and it still shapes the way I dive alot. Theres just so much thats extremely cool about functioning under water. Just check out how it's the seed crystal for this whole conversation! The primal thing of the solitary hunter is also, in my opinion, a very grounding human experience in this age. Bringing yourself to that day after day cannot but light up patterns and variables and bring your faculties into focus.

I agree there are many mechanisms by which intent and various other things are communicated in the natural world - just where causality resides in any given situation is another question.
 
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Very interesting conversation going over here, I think i'll join it...

So, i've read you talking about electricity things and such that fishes may sense it, i think that it's believable, but here's my opinion:
When we're afraid, dogs barks, you know why? Because of the scent that our body is producing at such situations. Cant it be the same case? I mean, yes... It would be hard to believe that pike and human makes same scents when they're agressive/hunting, but remember, if we all evolutioned from same organisms (i mean first microbiologic things born), then it's really believable that fishes could recognize the smell of agressiveness. And remember, that carp also likes the smell of vanila, strawberrys, and other things that human ALSO likes. This proves something, dont you think so?
Another thing, back to your thoughts, about parapshycho...
I think i'm also experiencing such things, not in freediving already, but in simple life... The most basic example would be when I forgot one word, and ask somebody saying:
- I forgot it, how it's called...? Then they forgets too, and we need to search for third person to ask.
But if I ask without telling "I forgot", I mean, just a simple question, then it seems that i'm getting the answer in most cases (not allways, but chance to get answer increases).
 
How about times when someone yawns and then the other person yawns? it happen to me on face to face and even on long phone conversations. And sometimes the other person claims to not hearing my yawning just a secodn before.
Now that's parapsycho.
 
Carp

I dunno - but I'm having a helluva time sneakin up on these carp. I'm gettin closer but it's still mostly little clouds and tails. I can hear the bass laughing - right behind my head - they are, to put it mildly, substantially less wary - almost to the point of mockery.

I have to clarify a little for Gerard - there is 'knowing without knowing' - which happens alot. Frequently it translates right into action - perfectly appropriate actions which arise spontaniously and seem informed by non-standard-access. In the case you are talking about there was a kind of flash - which what I wrote came out of - closer to an image. but no thinking 'gerard lives down-under' - more like seeing/feeling then action.

On the non-identification thing - I will try to explain experientially - otherwise it sounds like something from a book.

It's subjective - so bear with me if you will. There may be a pause in the usual psychological continuity - sometimes intentional - sometimes just spontanious (or both). Alot of methods can be used to come to the possibility - but the 'event' is a kind of shift in identity or perspective.

I'm not sure you can exactly 'do' it. It may start with contemplating some problem, or something pleasant or neutral - (or the interesting 'phasing' effect of a repetitive practice like kapalabhati) but there is a moment when the object is known as a kind of gesture - not just the object - but all the associations and the entire gesture of identity is known in a whole feeling-recognition-awareness.

It is seen not from it's own point of view (though that, in itself, is also 'known') - but in a whole sense - as a kind of tension or gesture arising in a living, complete space* it IS prior to any problem or object: as the context of identity. So the usual self is experienced as a gesture or tension - very much like a current or eddy. ( I like the term 'focal setting' in Tarthang Tulku's book 'Time, Space and Knowlege' it alludes more accurately to the kind of effort involved - which is not intellectual) Subject-Object polarities and their variations lose their problematic valence, you see, because they are known within this prior context - which is complete, empty, full, profoundly still and dynamic. I hope this helps - it is what I mean by non-identification. There are probably simpler ways to say it But alot of the traditional language easily lends itself to a very repressive approach. Again - big subject and too much of words

*(I picture this as like unreflected light - or 'light from the side')
 
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