pool training advice sought

[HJ]

Hi Harald, Here are the tips freely given to me when beginning freediving. You may gain some value from them. Sorry if I am repeating what others have said before me.

Yo, Kman. Your advice is much appreciated. Am studying it. A couple of comments/questions:

< a) Always dive with a spotter or in-pool buddy, >

I seem to keep knocking my head against this with y'all. I'm trying to figure out how to make this happen. Let me explain a little more and maybe there's a solution here somewhere. It's a private fitness center 25m pool. I only go when it's lap/fitness swimming time; no pesky kids, no floaters, no one except adults intent on doing their workouts and getting back to work. There are other pools in the center for therapy, kids, etc. I go midday; sporadic times based on my irregular work; time of arrival is always different. I'm new to this pool so don't know any of the swimmers yet (and they're usually different people). They are all swimmers; I have yet to see anyone do anything underwater. I do know the Aquatics Director and another Manager but I rarely see them around the pool, or if I do, they're focused on something. I do alert the lifeguard, but like you say, they've got a lot to do. So what do you think? What's a clever way for me get a spotter?

< b) never exceed 50m in training especially when training alone (as in pool staff spotting you) >

What about 25m; is this at all practical? The reason I ask is it seems safer and also the lifeguard (and other swimmers) get to see me more often with my head up. Could I work on Quantity @ 25m to help breath-hold and maybe do 50m every once in a while to concentrate on form/Quality? (I can already do 50m in this pool without much trouble but don't want to do it if it's a safety risk) FYI: I'm a bi-fin guy with Mares Avanti Tre mostly (similar to Volo Race).

< c) Technique training is paramount over distance, distance will come in time as technique improves >

I'm with you. I'm a technique kind of guy. Constant kick is working. Wish I could get a video made; good idea. If I ever do, I'll put it on YouTube so you can critique me.

< d) When training technique, never ever swim more than a length so you can analyze it properly. >

See (b) question above.

Keep 'em coming... THANKS.

 

[monkeyhatfork]

Nobody is going to tell you its good to dive alone. People do die, there are many stories of tragedy and near tragedy in these threads, don't remember the name but there was a whole thread dedicated to this subject-trying to come up with some kind of rules for diving alone. Also take into account that in a sport like this your actions can reflect on everyone, it just takes one BO or drowning to get it banned in a whole region of pools. With that said I would guess if you can do 50m easy, than 25 should be fairly safe- but it's not just distance you need to take into account, your recovery time between dives should be extended as well. Also this sport is different than others in that the more water experience you have the more dangerous it becomes because you don't get the same or as harsh warning signals that the average person gets. I'm in the same boat right now, I do 50m lenths, never more without a spotter, I choose the lane directly in front of the guard, discuse what I'm doing before hand and often durring the session, its an outdoor pool and winter so much of the time i'm the only one in the pool, when its crowded I share lanes with swimmers and I just do my dynamics underneath them, try and sinc up with thier laps and ask them to keep an eye out for me.It also depends on the gaurd, some I trust, but if its some high school kid playing on thier Iphone best stick with shorter distance or just swim, stop imediatly if you feel anything out of the ordinary.

 

[Mullins]

This is more representative of the training I do for constant weight, although it is a while since this video was taken. Kick and glide is really only useful in the pool. Hopefully this relates better to the points I mentioned before, though as always I could stand to be a lot better at practicing what I preach. In particular I'm struggling here to get the upstroke to match the downstroke and you can see some pausing/jerkiness as a result. My new monofin makes this a lot easier, this is my old CW fin with low angle.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BFleRM6nas]YouTube - Dynamic training - leaderfins hyper[/ame]

 

[HJ]

This is more representative of the training I do for constant weight, although it is a while since this video was taken. Kick and glide is really only useful in the pool. Hopefully this relates better to the points I mentioned before, though as always I could stand to be a lot better at practicing what I preach. In particular I'm struggling here to get the upstroke to match the downstroke and you can see some pausing/jerkiness as a result. My new monofin makes this a lot easier, this is my old CW fin with low angle.

Wow, this is great, Dave. Can really the upstroke emphasis, the still upper body, and your back flexibility. I will burn this in my mind for the pool.

Thanks for sharing. -- Harald

 

[HJ]

Nobody is going to tell you its good to dive alone. People do die, there are many stories of tragedy and near tragedy in these threads, don't remember the name but there was a whole thread dedicated to this subject-trying to come up with some kind of rules for diving alone. Also take into account that in a sport like this your actions can reflect on everyone, it just takes one BO or drowning to get it banned in a whole region of pools. With that said I would guess if you can do 50m easy, than 25 should be fairly safe- but it's not just distance you need to take into account, your recovery time between dives should be extended as well. Also this sport is different than others in that the more water experience you have the more dangerous it becomes because you don't get the same or as harsh warning signals that the average person gets. I'm in the same boat right now, I do 50m lenths, never more without a spotter, I choose the lane directly in front of the guard, discuse what I'm doing before hand and often durring the session, its an outdoor pool and winter so much of the time i'm the only one in the pool, when its crowded I share lanes with swimmers and I just do my dynamics underneath them, try and sinc up with thier laps and ask them to keep an eye out for me.It also depends on the gaurd, some I trust, but if its some high school kid playing on thier Iphone best stick with shorter distance or just swim, stop imediatly if you feel anything out of the ordinary.

Hey Monkey... thanks for feedback. I'm not discounting the danger; just trying to understand the risk and work with it. Your pool training tips have given me some ideas. Going to the pool tomorrow. -- Harald

 

[HJ]

Hey Monkey... thanks for feedback. I'm not discounting the danger; just trying to understand the risk and work with it. Your pool training tips have given me some ideas. Going to the pool tomorrow. -- Harald

Hey Monkey... thanks for feedback. I'm not discounting the danger; just trying to understand the risk and work with it. Your pool training tips have given me some ideas. Going to the pool tomorrow. -- Harald

Just came back from pool and thought I'd share and see if anyone has additional comments/advice.

I'm now adding underwater to my regular swimming (surface) workout. Timewise, it's about 50/50 now. One hour or so total. Again, pool is indoor 25m. After some practicing technique for a while (single lengths, full-body dolphin, Mares Avanti Tre fins (bi)), I did a set of 12 x 25m repeats. Since one length took me about 21-23 secs in normal mode, I decided on a 1:30 interval, which would give me a 2:1 rest-to-work ratio. I decided to forget about the completion time (hard for me to get out of this mindset), and instead concentrated on reducing my kick beats per length. I started at 14 (each down stroke) and gradually worked my down to 12 during the set. After I was finished (and thinking about what we've been talking about RE: safety) I noticed that another guard had come up to talk to the main guard (only one on duty). So I asked her if she would spot me for a 50 (down and back with turn). She did, and I did. I had to push a bit at the end, but it went fine.

So with this as a basis, what should my training plan be? Again, I'm gearing for a mid-April Bahamas trip for dolphin swimming and fun freediving. Do I:
A. Keep the interval that I've got and continue to reduce kicks-per-length?
B. Find a comfortable kick rate and reduce the rest time gradually?
C. Do more 25m repeats per session with either (A) or (B)?
D. Continue to do occasional SPOTTED kick-for-distance trials and try increase distance?

Thanks for any feedback!

HJ

 

[monkeyhatfork]

sounds like a good plan to start with, you have some time, so do it till it becomes to easy/boring then push forward from there- maybe eventually switching to 50m lenths closer to your trip. You could also do drills in your swimming-(you might already do these) going progressivelly more stokes between breaths, one drill I think can be a good open water prep- I think I got it from the Umberto Pelizzari book, is to do continual lenths- a couple hundred meter without stopping where you basically just continually dive and surface taking 1 to 2 breath per surface- dive, do a few kicks at bottom, surface,repeat- about five of these per length.

 

[azapa]

i have no idea where you live, but you might be surprised to find a few pool training freedivers near you. have a look here or on google, ask at the pool.

I have heard that tolerance tables are good, but hate them myself..

 

[Gwaihir]

Mullins, That video was great,gives me something to try to emulate
Thanx...
Tried my monofin in open water yesterday,for the first time, it was really not the same as swimming in pool's but the speed difference is really noticeable.
"looked up a bit on acende,and my whole suite got flodded with cold water brrr.. 2-3 degres celsius.

 

[paulbonomo]

Having been a lifeguard and swim instructor at an Olympic size pool, and an avid freediver myself, I had plenty of opportunity over the years to test different approaches to improving bottom time, and what I found worked the best is a moderately paced cardio/aerobic workout to increase your general fitness, and then some anaerobic training to increase lung capacity.

I start with a 1000yds. alternating between freestyle and backstroke, followed by a 500yd. "cool-down" of board-kicking. Then, to increase lung capacity, 10 X 25yd. lengths of underwater breaststroke with plenty of rest in between. After a few weeks, you'll find that you can gradually increase underwater distance comfortably until you can reach 50yds. (or 50meters if you try lengthwise!).

Now, scientifically speaking, since there is nothing that you can do to increase the level of oxygen in your blood (hyperventilation doesn't do it) the only way to increase your bottom time is by increasing your lung-capacity or by decreasing oxygen demand (which means less vigorous movement underwater). And, if you avoid hyperventilation altogether, a blackout is very unlikely.

Which reminds me, I've got about two months to get in shape for Abalone season, which opens April 1 in Northern California.

Good Luck!

 

[Mullins]

I really don't want to sound negative, but...

and then some anaerobic training to increase lung capacity.

I start with a 1000yds. alternating between freestyle and backstroke, followed by a 500yd. "cool-down" of board-kicking. Then, to increase lung capacity, 10 X 25yd. lengths of underwater breaststroke with plenty of rest in between.

How is anaerobic work supposed to increase your lung capacity?? I doubt this sort of exercise will increase your VC appreciably, if at all. Anybody done any before/after spiro tests? Packing will increase VC a great deal, but of course it has a down-side.

Now, scientifically speaking, since there is nothing that you can do to increase the level of oxygen in your blood (hyperventilation doesn't do it) the only way to increase your bottom time is by increasing your lung-capacity or by decreasing oxygen demand (which means less vigorous movement underwater).

A good dive reflex helps a bit too..... in fact it's probably even more important than technique, and definitely more important than lung capacity. Dive time/depth is not limited simply by how hypoxic your body is. It is limited also by the way in which that hypoxia is distributed in the body. Your legs can be totally hypoxic but as long as your brain is getting enough, you're fine. If on the other hand you have a poor dive reflex, you can black out while your legs are still happily kicking away, having chewed through all your 02 reserves. I think this is the main thing that separates the leading freedivers from the rest. Look at Sara C's 90m CW dive in Dahab. She looked completely gone with about 20m to go. Legs failed and she even had to resort to arm-strokes, but she reached the surface still conscious. Huge dive reflex.

I am undecided about just how important technique is. Yes, it is a pretty big factor. But to be honest I can swim 200m plus quite comfortably with lousy technique. Even my 244m was done with average form. Herbert also has less than pristine technique, but he holds the CW record. So there must be a lot of other factors in play.

 

[HJ]

I really don't want to sound negative, but...
How is anaerobic work supposed to increase your lung capacity?? I doubt this sort of exercise will increase your VC appreciably, if at all. Anybody done any before/after spiro tests? Packing will increase VC a great deal, but of course it has a down-side.

Paul's workout doesn't seem anaerobic to me (thanks for feedback, Paul!), but wouldn't "going hypoxic" (reducing breathing) help to increase body's ability to lengthen non-breathing time, even if only by familiarity? Here's a very interesting comment from:
http://www.nirsa.info/know/2007/12/risk001.html

<The development of hypoxic training is credited to the legendary swimming coach Dr. James Counsilman of Indiana University. Hypoxic training is 'low oxygen' training and involves the reduction or elimination of breathing while training. In swimming, this typically involves breathing every 5, 7 or 9 strokes or limited underwater swimming. It was originally thought that reducing levels of oxygen would result in physiological adaptations similar to high altitude training. In addition, it is also believed that reducing the number of breaths would increase the swimmer's speed as breathing tends to increase drag. Subsequent research has proven that sea-level hypoxic training does not produce any physiological adaptations. Hypoxic training, however, remains popular as it familiarizes swimmers with the discomfort and stress of low oxygen and can discipline swimmers to keep strong techniques during the stress of a race.

< Some swimmers and coaches have taken hypoxic training to the extreme by combining it with hyperventilation, with tragic results. The scenario is almost always either "lung buster 25 repeats" or underwater swims to maximum distances. For this reason, the CFPSA has defined hypoxic training by limiting it to "exercise at levels of reduced oxygen" rather than no oxygen from extended breath-holding. USA Swimming recommends that "...hypoxic training should be carried out only under close supervision." The American Red Cross states, "Hypoxic training (breathing on a restricted schedule) may be used safely in a training program of experienced swimmers in good physical condition with proper supervision and instruction. The number of repeats of practice sets of hypoxic training should be limited. Adequate time for recovery will vary from swimmer to swimmer. Hypoxic training should be limited to older and more experienced swimmers....To prevent hyperventilation, have swimmers take only one, or at the most, two deep breaths before beginning hypoxic training." Lung capacity diminishes with age, so Kevin Milak, technical editor for Swimming Technique magazine, recommends that "Masters swimmers using hypoxic training should be watched very carefully." Although there are differing opinions regarding the value of hypoxic training, there is large support for doing so only under close supervision. >

I used to know and swim with Doc Counsilman, so I'm familiar with this concept (for swimming). But didn't realize it has been sort of disproven. *** I might try some modified hypoxic swimming next time to pool. (I happen to be "older and more experienced") Like reducing my speed/time and increasing my breath interval. I normally do "every 3rd" breath with freestyle but will try every 5th or 7th to see. I am not able to maintain this at full speed, but reducing the effort should help. I need to get out of the speed mentality anyway. THOUGHTS?

A good dive reflex helps a bit too..... in fact it's probably even more important than technique, and definitely more important than lung capacity. Dive time/depth is not limited simply by how hypoxic your body is. It is limited also by the way in which that hypoxia is distributed in the body. Your legs can be totally hypoxic but as long as your brain is getting enough, you're fine. If on the other hand you have a poor dive reflex, you can black out while your legs are still happily kicking away, having chewed through all your 02 reserves. I think this is the main thing that separates the leading freedivers from the rest. Look at Sara C's 90m CW dive in Dahab. She looked completely gone with about 20m to go. Legs failed and she even had to resort to arm-strokes, but she reached the surface still conscious. Huge dive reflex.

Interesting. But what is there to DO about the mammilian diving reflex? Anything?

I am undecided about just how important technique is. Yes, it is a pretty big factor. But to be honest I can swim 200m plus quite comfortably with lousy technique. Even my 244m was done with average form. Herbert also has less than pristine technique, but he holds the CW record. So there must be a lot of other factors in play.

But wouldn't you say that, all things being equal, why not improve technique? It can't hurt, right?

 

[Mullins]

Anaerobic/hypoxic work is excellent for freediving, most of my training revolves around it. However it does not increase lung capacity (the amount of air your lungs hold).

Also, the intensity mentioned by Paul is probably too low. Repeat 25m lengths with long intervals will probably not get you anaerobic at all, unless perhaps you're sprinting your guts out.

And of course technique is important. However Paul reduced dive time/distance to two factors (technique and lung volume) and I wanted to point out that there were others involved that may be just as (or more) important.

 

[HJ]

sounds like a good plan to start with, you have some time, so do it till it becomes to easy/boring then push forward from there- maybe eventually switching to 50m lenths closer to your trip. You could also do drills in your swimming-(you might already do these) going progressivelly more stokes between breaths, one drill I think can be a good open water prep- I think I got it from the Umberto Pelizzari book, is to do continual lenths- a couple hundred meter without stopping where you basically just continually dive and surface taking 1 to 2 breath per surface- dive, do a few kicks at bottom, surface,repeat- about five of these per length.

Thanks. See other message about breaths-per-armcycle. The "continual lengths" idea is interesting but my pool is mostly 4 feet deep with a short deep end. But I'll try it. I actually do this in my 50m pool (spring-fall) for fun. I used to call this "frog jump" without fins, and as younger swimmers we used to have races doing this. Cool, huh?

 

[Mullins]

There are a bunch of ways you can train or modify your dive strategy to increase the effects of the dive reflex. I won't go into them here because it's a big subject but a thorough search of DB should show up quite a lot of information. Some examples though:

- expose yourself regularly to the discomfort and hypoxia of long breathholds
- get as much of your face cold/wet as possible
- get your limbs chilled, but not too cold and your core warm (not shivering)
- do dives with little or no warmup
- take plenty of C02 with you i.e. no hyperventilating

 

[HJ]

... Also, the intensity mentioned by Paul is probably too low. Repeat 25m lengths with long intervals will probably not get you anaerobic at all, unless perhaps you're sprinting your guts out....

Agreed. I'm currently doing 25m repeats on the 1:30 interval, which is about 2:1 for rest:work. I've heard this is safe. I could gradually decrease the rest interval, or I could maintain the interval and increase the distance (adding a turn). Which would you do if you had to choose? Thanks.

 

[HJ]

I start with a 1000yds. alternating between freestyle and backstroke, followed by a 500yd. "cool-down" of board-kicking. [...] Which reminds me, I've got about two months to get in shape for Abalone season, which opens April 1 in Northern California. Good Luck!

Thanks Paul. The first part is a little too light for me, but we're all different. Good luck with those Abs!

 

[chrismar]

Dead right Dave, anaerobic training won't increase lung capacity. It's a very useful tool though. Interestingly, the medical community does not believe that it is possible to increase total lung capacity AT ALL past adolecence. The LFT results that they got from us and the Aussie freedivers are casting serious doubts on that assumption though. At the end of the day though, Dave is right. Lung capacity is less important than you think. Not that his scuba tank-sized ones hurt his performances...

If you want a good anaerobic workout, I find under/over sprints in short fins to be a good way. I do 16x25m and time myself, trying to minimise the total time. You don't become very hypoxic, but you will be quite anaerobic, hypercapnic and lactic.

 

[HJ]

... If you want a good anaerobic workout, I find under/over sprints in short fins to be a good way. I do 16x25m and time myself, trying to minimise the total time. You don't become very hypoxic, but you will be quite anaerobic, hypercapnic and lactic.

Hey crismar, what is "under/over sprints"? And how short are the fins? (bi, right?)

I just came back from doing U/W 16x25m (bi-fin) and brought my rest interval down a notch (to under 2:1) leaving on the 1:15. Still easy but I can tell that if I drop the take-off time more, it will start getting harder.

 

[chrismar]

Half the length under the water and half on top. More accurately they're over/unders, as I swim on the surface to half way, duck dive then swim the rest under the water. The fins I use are underwater hockey fins, lots more thrust than swimfins but not nearly as efficient as a mono. The mono would also make freestyle pretty much impossible on the surface leg.

My anaerobic training tends to be underwater hockey training. It helps with muscle efficiency as well. Another goodie is FLABs. In a 25m pool, do a length of Freestyle, then Legs only followed by Arms only and finally Bottoms, ie. undewater length. Each rep is then 100m any you leave every 90s for the next rep. The aim is to get 10 done on the trot. I don't really suggest it until you're a little more used to things, but you can do one or two to see what its like.