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Rundown of Sebastian's course

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

BennyB

will freedive for beer
Staff member
Forum Mentor
Sep 25, 2004
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Hi all,

Loopy recently attended Sebastian Murat's course in Perth, Australia and has posted an interesting account of his thoughts on the Extreme Spearfishing Australia website.

Go to http://www.extremespearfishing.com.au/ and click on Spear Forum, then The Perfect Dive, and it is posted under "Seb's Course".

Cheers,
Ben
 
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cdavis

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2003
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Thanks to loopy and Bennyb for some great information. Fascinating stuff.

Connor
 

loopy

Deeper Blue Hypoxyphiliac
Oct 24, 2002
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Hey guys, no sweat - hopefully what I wrote made sense. There seems to be an awful lot of views and not many replies though - I'm not sure if that's people agreeing with me or thinking I'm off my nut... :)

Cheers,


Brad
 
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quasimoto

New Member
Oct 27, 2004
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im agreeing with you!:)
i thought it was very clear and well-written, and it sounds like a ton of fun. I second the notion of a course in the USA as well, i'd definitely take it!
 

sebastien murat

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2004
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Hi Brad,

Thanks for the plug.

A couple of quick points about blackouts and the applicability of exhales for spearing:

Firstly, BOs can still occur in the pool. Part of the problem is that there is insufficient pressure, achieved through depth, to protect the diver. Certainly, hyperventilating before submerging on exhale will precipitate this effect. In this respect, there is no difference between 'inhale' and 'exhale'. It should be obvious to everyone that diving efficiency increases with depth so that long breath-holds in the shallows were access to air is readily available are irrational; at depth access is restricted and so it stands to reason that there will be greater protection. In fact the more pronounced the dive response (DR), achieved through hydrostatic pressure and relative cold of depth compared to the surface, the lower the risk of a BO. A stronger DR is associated with a reduced rate of oxygen desaturation. Trained divers generally have are more prompt and accentuated DR and are therefore at reduced risk of succumbing to a BO, all other things being equal. Furthermore, exercise, e.g., swimming, during the descent will oppose the effects of the DR, which is why we aim to descend passively to depth, that is, at least until the DR is well established and not likely to be undermined by an exercise response.

Exhale diving for spearfishing does not automatically result in a switch to anaerobic metabolism and concomitant production of an excess amount of metabolic waste products and, hence, undue fatigue. A moderate dive response, one that wont completely shut-off circulation and hence oxygen to the working msucles, can still be achieved if the diver warms-up before diving. The purpose of the dive response under these conditions is not to cease the flow of oxygen to the exercising muscles but rather to render, other,temporarily not essentail organs, e.g., non-exercising muscles, skin, gut, etc., hypometabolic. If blood flow to these areas ceases or is greatly impeded then these organs/tissues will cool very quickly to ambient (water) temeprature. This is advantageous because it slows metabolic reactions in those tissues. Under these circumstances and for the duration of the dive these tissues/organs do not necessarily have to switch over to anaerobic metabilsm for lack of oxygen, they can simply use less oxygen.

For extreme dives on the other hand, there must be a switch to anaerobic metabolism even in those working muscles. This is better achieved by doing exhale dive, not warmin-up and not swimming down. Of course, we don't want to render the muscles to 'lactic', too early in the dive. We can achieve this by swimming as little as possible (=> sinking instead of swimming), shuting off blood supply, everywhere except the most vital of organs, e.g., heart and CNS. All other organs can have their circulation clamped down, cooled and slowed down. This effect, if frequently repeated in training, will result in enhanced MbO2 stores. This in itself will delay the build-up of waste products and premature fatigue in non-vital organs by maintianing them aerobic.

Lastly, its true that my exhale breath-hold duration is about half of what I can achieve on inhale. There is however one very important difference: exhale statics in themselves are a pointless unless they simulate descents and are followed by dynamics, which simulate ascents. In this respect, my exhale simulated descent/ascent are now longer than my constant-weight dives.

About BOs being degrading: although I don't encourage BOs they are sometimes a good educational tool in bringing awareness to those who may have thought themselves immune and demonstrating, in parctice, what not to do. In this respect, they have the desired result of scaring the 'bejesus' out of those who may think they are beyond them.


Cheers,
Seb
 
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quasimoto

New Member
Oct 27, 2004
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wow seb, you and efettah seem to have an unending source of dive-related knowledge:) I wish ine day i coyuld be as well informed as that
but yeah, do you think that you would ever do a course in the US? Im sure that you would be able to get enough people for a class in many major locations (california, vancouver, hawaii possible) I think it would be an awesome chance to practice your technique under the supervision of the one best at it-you!:)
 

Bill

Baron of Breathold
Oct 17, 2001
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"About BOs .............................................they have the desired result of scaring the 'bejesus' out of those who may think they are beyond them."

Worked for me Seb. Thanks for all the info.

Aloha
Bill
 

sebastien murat

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2004
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Quasimoto and Roy,

Actually, I'll be in Vancouver, southern California and Hawaii in mid/late August of this year visting several universities involved in apnea diving physiology. Perhaps if there's enough interest I'll consider staying a few more days to run a clinic. Mind you, a lot of the stuf I practice and teach is way out in left field and so, not everyone's cup of tea. I know Kirk Krack and co. run courses in those areas and you might be better served by doing one of their clinics if your're stuggling.

Cheers,
Seb
 

roy_nexus_6

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2003
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Sebastien, thanks for the reply. I understand that what you pracitce and teach is not "mainstream" . Could you explain the "if your're stuggling" part ? Does your course requires certain perfomance levels, before one can take it (as in minimum static / dynamic breath hold times / depth ? ).
 
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laminar

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2001
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Hi Seb,

Are you coming to Vancouver this summer? If so, I'd be very interested to meet you (Eric, too) and I'm sure there would be many long discussions to have about a whole bunch of different things including some goodies waiting for you to see.

O emerald waters and sharp thermoclines are waiting for you..... :cool:

Mi casa, es su casa.

Best,

Pete
 

sebastien murat

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2004
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Roy,

The course does not require one to be diver per se, but one must be able to actually swim underwater. Previously, I've had great swimmers who've been able to make the grade of swimmming 200m and treading-water for 15' but, quite surprisingly, freaked after just 15".

By struggling, I mean psychological, not physiological, struggling.

Laminar: sounds great! We could make an evening of it. I'll bring the wine if you guys cook dinner!?


Seb
 

ADR

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2004
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Pete - I've sampled Seb's cooking and can say that it's almost as impressive as his diving...my suggestion is you provide the wine and get him to cook! :)

Andy
 

tylerz

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2002
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There is a hand full of people out in left field on Vancouver Island! Just the fact that they are on the island already proves that. ;) Might be some interest if you are coming. If you are not interested in visiting the island, I am sure some could be convinced to set foot in Vancouver, if only for a short time.

Cheers,

Tyler
 

quasimoto

New Member
Oct 27, 2004
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Seb-

Yes, i know about the clinics by kirk around here and have taken them and loved them, I just also feel very interested in your method of diving and would like very much to have the opportunity to learn it (or at least try it out and see if its for me) safely.:)
 

sebastien murat

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2004
424
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Tyler,

Great! I should feel right at home in Vancouver then. About the cooking...I think Andy (ADR) is probably just use to eating 'Macas' which makes my cooking seem that much more palatable.

Also, for those in my neck of the woods we're running some experiments next month and were looking for any potential subjects with experience with both exhale and inhale startegies. Nothing too stressful but test-subjects must be able to do exhales comfortably to depths of between 10-20m. Subjects must have problem-free ears to such depths, i.e., on exhale. Unfortunately, we cannot compensate you financially for your troubles, and as such I guess it's really only for the more passionate amongst you. If you're interested please get back to me asap.


Cheers,
Seb
 

roy_nexus_6

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2003
368
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Sebastien,
Thanks for the reply.
Which part of So. Cal. are you planning to visit and where are you planning to stay ?
 

laminar

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2001
1,129
206
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Hi Seb,

Yes, I hope Tyler does leave his paradise for a day or two for us to feast and hang out in Vancouver...are you doing the research at UBC or SFU? (the two main universities in Vancouver). And of course, we'll have to take you out diivng. And we may have to drag you over to the island, even for just a day, to see the kind of underwater scenery that keeps us from moving down to the tropics.

Any ideas on what dates might see you in Vancouver....gotta start planning the feast! :p

***okay folks, back to the thread***

Seb, are you planning on attending the Scientific conference in Italy in December of this year. Apparently, it will be the largest forum on apnea medicine and research ever. So I hear, anyway. Lots of big sponsors and Apnea Academy is quite involved. A local diver who is Italian let me know about it and was especially interested in the idea that seems to held in by Italian divers of Apnea Academy that packing is bad news and may cause long term damage. My friend is concerned that he may have developed emphysemea-like symptoms (abnormally high residual volume and lung squeezes from less than 20m) which for him seem to have only occured after he began packing. Anyway, lung volume, whether it be FRC or extra high from packing, seems to be the hot topic these days.

What I find interesting about that is that I seem to remember hearing that Haggis Statti, the famous guy from Greece who apparently dove over 70m to retrieve the anchor had a horrible wheeze on land and was judged unfit for physical exertion by a navy doctor.... or was that just part of the story to make it sound better. :hmm

I will try to attend this conference, given all the unanswered questions I have about lung barotrauma and the advantages that FRC seem to offer for me.

Thoughts?

Pete
 
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