Sambaaaa !

[adolphin]

I got a saambaa .. I got a saaambbaaaa .. :thankyou
huh ?! .. don't ask me about how did it look like .. ask sands ..
just ask me how did it feel .. surprisingly comfortable !!! .. actually all I remember is me approaching the end of the pool (trying to make 50 m Dyn w/fins) and then all of the sudden I saw my self standing up in the pool totaly fresh looking around, to be honest if Sara didn't tell me that I had a fully fledged Samba I would'nt have noticed it or even believe it .. my God this is scarry !! .. oh sands, I gave you a very hard time .. I'm sooo sorry ..

 

[sanso]

Whhoooaaaah! That does sound scary!
Is 50m much for You or was that a distance You expected to manage easily?
Anyway, glad You're still around.
Btw, Sands: thanks for taking care of adolphin! Here's a toast to buddies!

Hey, here's an idea! How about making February the 8th Buddy Appreciation Day?

 

[adolphin]

Oh yes it does sound scary sanso .. actually in my case for me it feels scary,not only sounds !! .. reading all the articles about BO and Samba is something and experiencing one is totaly different, the idea that you just pass out without notice other than some eager to breath .. that easy !! .. but anyway it was my first try with a buddy (so it's my first time that I would try it up to my limit, well actually past my limit to be exact, coz I've always been very conservative and will break out so soon after feeling my contractions coz I didn't have a qualified diver with me as a buddy, I mostly did dry statics, and only afew times wet statics and dynamics, no deep freediving yet).

Is 50m much for You or was that a distance You expected to manage easily?

Well I used to do 40 m with ease sanso! .. so I thought if I push little bit harder I should do the 50m with no problems, the thing is that yesterday I had a weight training session at 12 noon, it was legs and shoulders .. and then I went back to work (office) then drove about 2 hours to Dubai (not to mention 5 hours sleep only the last night- thanks to my new born baby) so after 5 hours of my weight training session with no rest I got to the apnea training, maybe my metabolism rate was still high, so I consumed the O2 faster and build CO2 faster as well !! .. (looking at Sara .. yes I didn't tell you) .. :chatup ..

Btw, Sands: thanks for taking care of adolphin! Here's a toast to buddies!

Oh yes, she is my saving angel .. :inlove

Hey, here's an idea! How about making February the 8th Buddy Appreciation Day?

Great idea sanso .. specially that I would be remembered year after year .. .. I know I know .. being the naughty boy !

 

[OceanMan]

I got a saambaa .. I got a saaambbaaaa .. :thankyou
huh ?! .. don't ask me about how did it look like .. ask sands ..
just ask me how did it feel .. surprisingly comfortable !!!

Be carefull, when reading your post a non native english speaker (and we are legion out there) could think you are actually happy with that.

I am not sure, but if you experienced a memory loss, you probably experienced a BO more than a samba...
At least, Eric Fattah said so in a different thread ( http://forums.deeperblue.net/631240-post16.html ).

 

[Waterysmile]

Well I used to do 40 m with ease sanso! .. so I thought if I push little bit harder I should do the 50m with no problems, the thing is that yesterday I had a weight training session at 12 noon, it was legs and shoulders .. and then I went back to work (office) then drove about 2 hours to Dubai (not to mention 5 hours sleep only the last night- thanks to my new born baby) so after 5 hours of my weight training session with no rest I got to the apnea training, maybe my metabolism rate was still high, so I consumed the O2 faster and build CO2 faster as well !!

Hmm, the answer might well be found in this paragraph!

Training legs and then doing dynamic - I'm trying to leave 3 or 4 days between them.

 

[island_sands]

rofl

Adolphin said that he came around from a nice dream... it was my first experience in assisting someone with a samba and imagine adolphin came around and we were standing at the steps of the pool with my arm around him rofl rofl rofl he must have thought that he did something right ! rofl

Seriously though, it was quite scary, his whole body stiffened , his jaw locked and his chest contracted in and out, he is a lot bigger than me (in a good way Adel!) and to hold him was difficult.

the lifeguard came running up (and i was thinking NOW I AM IN THE SH-T) and by that time Adolphin came around and he was "fine".

Good practise and experience was had by all....

sanso, buddy appreciation day? i am all for it

 

[adolphin]

Be carefull, when reading your post a non native english speaker (and we are legion out there) could think you are actually happy with that.

I am not sure, but if you experienced a memory loss, you probably experienced a BO more than a samba...
At least, Eric Fattah said so in a different thread ( http://forums.deeperblue.net/631240-post16.html ).

Yes OceanMan, I am surely unhappy with having a BO/Samba .. no one would ever be happy for being seconds away from death ! .. I was trying to face the incedent with sense of humar, appreciating that it ended safely -thank God then thank sands - also, as it is my first ever attempt to push my self and got the chance to experience what does it feel when I exceed my limits with in safe conditions (having a qualified responsible buddy), I assume my self being very lucky, coz it could have strike me in the worst possible conditions instead .. now I declare that I would be extra care about the warnings my body gives, and although I never try to challange my self when no qualified buddy is around, I assure you that the caution is now doubled ..
thanks for the comment and for clearing up this point to others OceanMan ..

Then regarding it being a BO or Samba, I'm new at that .. as I told you I was swiming and almost reached the end with both hands .. then the vision came back to me standing in the pool (at the end corner) .. doesn't the black out require complete loss of conciousness, which means that I wont move anymore? .. while in my case sands told me that I was having extensive compulsions in my whole body .. I sinked for about 2 seconds and after she pulled me out again I continued the same shaking for quite long (about 2 min) .. Sara can clear it up if I missed some details .. now what would you diagnose it: BO or Samba ? or is it something else!
Reading Fattah's post, it would be a BO I guess, I remeber once I was breathing deeply on the ground (no diving here) while setting down then I suddenly stand upright and had the worst night mare, the whole vision is rotating around me and I was trying my best not to fall down (specially that deep in my mind I knew that the swiming pool is near by) it took me some time before I was fully in control without falling down, now is that a Samba ? because if it is then BO is much better .. .. I am kidding again OceanMan .. lol .. just kidding ..

 

[adolphin]

Oh sands .. there you are ..

and imagine adolphin came around and we were standing at the steps of the pool with my arm around him he must have thought that he did something right !

Okeey ! .. now I understand why my spirit was quite high when I'm back .. :hmm .. rofl .. unfortunately I wasn't concious yet on that part sands .. :head

 

[adolphin]

Hmm, the answer might well be found in this paragraph!

Training legs and then doing dynamic - I'm trying to leave 3 or 4 days between them.

Well Waterysmile .. I assume so, adding to that, when I do 40 m I prepare by reaching to about 3' to 3' 30" static, yestreday I reached only 2' 30" or so before I slap with my fins for the dynamic .. I would surely from now on seperate the days of gym from the days of apnea, specially dynamics and deep diving.
Oh my God sands, didn't you want not to tell me about it at that time, and just see what would be my reaction ?! .. rofl .. I wish it was filmed !!

 

[adolphin]

it took me some time before I was fully in control without falling down, now is that a Samba ? because if it is then BO is much better .. .. I am kidding again OceanMan .. lol .. just kidding ..

Just to clarify .. actually this is exactely the opposite of a Samba, coz Samba is a body reflex to the extremely low amount of O2 reaching to the brain just before BO, the whole body muscles contracts strongly trying to bring as much O2 up to the brain .. while in this case, I was breathing deeply on the floor, I got saturated with O2 and the deep long exhales slowed down my heart rate alot and lowered down my blood pressure, standing up suddenly caused the blood pressure to drop down sharply even more (standing up blood pressure reads less than lying down) and that's when I got dezzy .. :hungover
That's why when any of us wants to do walking apnea and thought of relaxing first in a flat position, then he/she should stand up very slowly .. in case it happens anyway just go down back to your previous position then try standing up after few seconds even slower ..

 

[trux]

Adolphin, you are incorrectly confusing several terms and physiological effects. I think it would be worth of reading some freediving book containing basic info about the physiology and freediving theory - that would help you avoiding such accidents like you had.

Samba or correctly LMC (Loss of Motor Control) is a neurological failure due to hypoxemia. The shaking is not necessarily the same as convulsions, contractions, or spasms trying to deliver oxygen to the brain.

And what you experienced after you breath-up was a blackout (or a state close to it) due to brain hypoxia induced through hyperventilation (and accelerated by the pressure change) and not because of relaxation and low heart rate. When you hyperventilate (it means breathing (even slightly) faster or deeper than normally, lowering so the CO2 level in your blood), the body reacts to the low CO2 level by vasoconstriction of the carotids supplying the brain, and the higher blood acidity (due to the CO2 excess) causes stronger binding of oxygen to hemoglobin, which also means the oxygen cannot be easily released where needed (in brain in this case). So paradoxically, after hyperventilating, you can easily blackout due to brain hypoxia.

 

[adolphin]

trux, thank you for your advice, I surely need alot of info regrading freediving physics and chemistry .. I hope we'll have loads of these information through the freediving courses we shall have next month, and reading speciality books is very important too ..

Samba or correctly LMC (Loss of Motor Control) is a neurological failure due to hypoxemia. The shaking is not necessarily the same as convulsions, contractions, or spasms trying to deliver oxygen to the brain.

So if I got it right, there's no relationship between those movements in a LMC case and the body trials to deliver O2 to the brain. or could it be associated with such trials, what do you mean by "not necessarily" ?

And what you experienced after you breath-up was a blackout (or a state close to it) due to brain hypoxia induced through hyperventilation (and accelerated by the pressure change) and not because of relaxation and low heart rate.

I'm not quoting the whole paragraph, it can be read in your post ..
Now excuse my poor english trux, but didn't you say that the hyperventilation is reducing the CO2 in blood ?! .. which is correct.. how come there will be CO2 "EXCESS" which would increase the blood acidity and causes a stronger O2 hemoglobin bindings?!
Plus, if I am not mistaken, isn't the hyperventilation as a term descripes FAST SHALLOW breaths, which will decrease CO2 level in blood SHARPLY without increasing O2 levels? while DEEP SLOW breaths will both increase O2 level and decrease CO2 level but NEVER to the extend of delaying the body reflex toward higher CO2 levels?
I was doing very very slow and very deep breaths for about 20 minutes before standing up all of the sudden. It is very clear in my post that the major reason for the dizziness in my understanding is the sharp drop in blood pressure, which you agreed that is an accelerating factor.
Anyway, what you said could make alot of sense .. I just think I'm missing something in between ..
It's a good luck for me that a cardiologist is visiting our home for couple of days, I think I'll have a conversation with him about the subject, he might be able to explain to me .. Thanks alot bud ..

 

[sanso]

.. hyperventilation as a term descripes FAST SHALLOW breaths, ...

The 'hyper' in hyperventilation refers to the fact that You're breathing (ventilating) more than You need. It doesn't describe the speed of in-/exhalation.

 

[wet]

And what you experienced after you breath-up was a blackout (or a state close to it) due to brain hypoxia induced through hyperventilation (and accelerated by the pressure change) and not because of relaxation and low heart rate. When you hyperventilate (it means breathing (even slightly) faster or deeper than normally, lowering so the CO2 level in your blood), the body reacts to the low CO2 level by vasoconstriction of the carotids supplying the brain,

[?] and the higher blood acidity (due to the CO2 excess) [?]

causes stronger binding of oxygen to hemoglobin, which also means the oxygen cannot be easily released where needed (in brain in this case). So paradoxically, after hyperventilating, you can easily blackout due to brain hypoxia.

Trux, is that right?

I thought: HV causes blood alkalinity, thus stronger O2-hemoglobin chemical bonding, thus reduced O2 flow to brain and resulting hypoxic dizziness.
Am I mistaken?
DDeden

 

[trux]

I'm not quoting the whole paragraph, it can be read in your post ..
Now excuse my poor english trux, but didn't you say that the hyperventilation is reducing the CO2 in blood ?! .. which is correct.. how come there will be CO2 "EXCESS" which would increase the blood acidity and causes a stronger O2 hemoglobin bindings?!

Ah, sorry, mea culpa! Don't know where my mind was. Of course: Hyperventilation = low CO2 = low acidity = high O2 binding to hemoglobin. What I meant was definitely not CO2 excess, but the extra oxygen binding due to the alkalinity excess (low CO2)

 

[trux]

Plus, if I am not mistaken, isn't the hyperventilation as a term descripes FAST SHALLOW breaths, which will decrease CO2 level in blood SHARPLY without increasing O2 levels? while DEEP SLOW breaths will both increase O2 level and decrease CO2 level but NEVER to the extend of delaying the body reflex toward higher CO2 levels?
I was doing very very slow and very deep breaths for about 20 minutes before standing up all of the sudden.

Ah no, in this case I was right. Hyperventilation is any kind of ventilation above the normal, while hypoventilation is below the normal. Hyperventilation may be slow and deep, fast and deep, or just fast, and in some cases even fast and shallow breathing can lead to reducing the CO2 level, but shallow breathing is rather going to cause hypoventilation (CO2 excess - this time I mean it ).

What you did is typical case of rather strong hyperventilation and a definitely bad thing for freediving, because of many reasons. I already posted about it recently several times, so do not want to repeat it all, but you may want to look at the other threads about hyperventilation. Let a moment and I'll add some links here.

This is the recent discussion: http://forums.deeperblue.net/beginner-freediving/69934-breathe-up.html
And this is an older thread: http://forums.deeperblue.net/static-dynamic/68327-hyperventilation-good-bad.html
This post sums up more of the negative effects of hyperventilation: http://forums.deeperblue.net/static...highlight=hyperventilation+carotid#post626123

However, there are many other threads about hyperventilation in the archive. I strongly discourage anyone but the top freedivers to apply hyperventilation of any level for improving the performance. And as I stated in the other thread I believe that hyperventilation is counterproductive even at top freedivers, but that is my opinion and would need to be scientifically confirmed first.

It is very clear in my post that the major reason for the dizziness in my understanding is the sharp drop in blood pressure, which you agreed that is an accelerating factor.

Actually the major factor causing the blood pressure drop, carotid contraction, and reduced oxygenation of the brain was the hyperventilation, the standing up was secondary - swimming underwater or other physical effort would have similar effect. And doing this before a dive is really a big no-no.

 

[adolphin]

trux, now that makes alot of sense .. thanks alot ..
I went through the first link :"Breath Up" .. it was very informative.. I would surely eat up the other links shortly ..
One point to mention here trux about the accident I had (LMC or BO) with sands, actually it didn't happen without any sign! I had the air pursting out of my mouth in small amount forcefully because of the strong urge to breath near the end, my chest muscles was contracting too badly that I couldn't hold the air in my lungs, I spitted out pockets of air about 4 times as I remember before I lose conciousness ! .. I'm sure the first purst is a clear sign of exiting for those who know (in dynamic and static not deep diving).. I'm surely a very stubborn person who could withstand alot of pain (not good at all because accordingly I need to depend upon my conciousness to deside when to quit rather than my tolerance to pain or discomfort).
According to all this, I think that the breathup on the time of incident wasn't hyper, I was only very new to doing pass the limits, I thought that when CO2 is too much high (that usually is way before O2 is too much low) I would unwillingly swim out of water to breath, that wasn't the case with me. Maybe also the gym exercise I did was still eating up O2 too fast, what do you think?

On the otherhand, I did experience hyperventilating in dry statics last year, well I understand now it was extreme coz the tingling was all over my body !!! it remained for long period (I assume at least 1 minute) before I came back to normal and the contractions didn\t start before 4' 30" or so ! so I made 5' 26" at that time, I didn't stop the static because of too much urge to breath, rather I was shocked by the time it took because at that time I was doing increments of 10 sec a training, that day it was 1' 30" over so I was quite happy with it .. .. I assume if I desided to continue I would have B/O ! .. now I understand that this was not my PB since it was done through extreme hyperventilating (which I consider a violation and upnormal situation), therfore the 3' 30" I do without those symptoms is a real PB.

 

[adolphin]

After reading the other links trux (which are very informative-thank you) .. I have one point unexplained for me .. I do understand that the O2 saturated in the tissues could be utilized without problem even with hypervenilation and strong O2 binding to hemos since it is already inside the tissues (correct me if I'm wrong) .. but O2 delivered from the lungs to the blood into the brain and other body parts will be of a very low exchanging rate (due to the strong O2 bindings to hemos) .. knowing that the brain consumes it's O2 reservoir so rapidly (it takes usually less than 10 seconds of no O2 supply for the brain to shutt down it's operation to save its cells) .. then it should only be true that: Extreme Hyperventilating=Fast Fainting (BO) .. while as I mentioned earlier that when I hyperventilate extremely last year (know it from the extreme face-hands-feet tingling feeling for more than a minute) I did 5' 26" !!! .. I understand that it delayed the CO2 reflex in the body, but how on earth with a very low O2 blood exchange in the brain could the brain still work after 5 minutes ?!! ..any explainations ?
Second question: if the case is not very extremely so (O2 will still be exchanged good enough to keep the organs, specially brain functioning) then wont the body accumulate CO2 while holding breath so it would reach the level that alkalinty will go back normal and the BIG amounts of O2 bound to hemoglobin cells will get normally released and the breath holder will hold his/her breath safely for much longer than normal ? .. if it is so, then I assume that the case is specifically dangerous only when the body will have activity that would overpass the rate of O2 exchange of such state causing BO, but as long as the activity is below that level (say in case of a static with very low metabolism rate - that is low enough for the given example .. ) then there will not be a risk of BO ! .. I do understand though that this will be a very risky game, but just, is my understanding acceptable according to the diving theory?

 

[trux]

Adolphin, you probably did not read all the info in the threads. It was explained there too. The body reacts with several ways to the hyperventilation, but the carotids constriction together with the high O2 binding may be already sufficient (depending on the level of hyperventilation and few other factors) for hypoxemia in brain high enough for a blackout. But of couse (again depending on the level of hyperventilation), the brain may continue to work, the CO2 level slowly rises up to the normal, (while O2 drops below normal). Due to the normal CO2 level your brain still thinks you have enough oxygen, so you can make a longer apnea without big effort, but may be already in a really dagerous hypoxic zone and black out easily.

Also, in your calculation you somehow count with a constant O2 consumption. That's not the case in apnea. Normally, at a trained diver, the consumption drops very rapidly due to the diving reflex (bradycardia, blood shift, blood shunt, vasoconstriction,...) and relaxation. Although after the hyperventilation your brain may be starved of oxygen, the body continues to consume it, and does not get any signals to start the diving reflex. Later, already deep in the dive, hypoxemia may already slowly start, but your acidity now gets just about normal, hence both body and brain consume the max, not knowing they are in apnea, hence not trying to save. When the CO2 finally rises, it may be already too late and you black out. And even if you don't, the diving reflex will be too late and too soft (if any at all). So in total you waste more oxygen than if you dive with normal CO2 level.

 

[DiverTodd]

Speaking from experience, adolphin, it definately sounds like your day was a bit FULL before you even got to the pool! I learned the hard way (via a poor performance) to keep my freediving pool nights free of ANY other exercise, including swimming, tolerance tables, etc. That way, all of my energy reserves are still intact for my attempts in the pool that night. I also make sure to eat a LIGHT dinner, at LEAST 4 hrs before I head for the pool, so my body has digestion out of the way and isn't using oxygen for it. My dynamic distance has bumped up into the 65m range (from 50m), and this Tues, I'll be going for 75m. I KNOW I can do it, I just have to relax and focus on my kicking!

Todd