Shooting techniques when in a school of Fish

[Joker Fox]

Hey guys this is my first thread and this topis is basicly the main reason that i sighned up to deepblue. I was recently spearing on a beach with my mates south of sydney and we where inside a school of australian salmon. Now heres the bit that f.....g pisses me off , i am an extremely experienced spearfisherman but i need to learn more about the ways of a speargun since i have transfered over from handspear to gun around 4 years ago and i still have much to learn about them. I had a Omar excalibar 130cm with a rob allen shaft. when i was in the school i couldn't hit one fish on target, i was penitrating the tail or lower belly allowing the strong salmon to rip themselves off the shaft.

I know that i shouldn't be blaming my gun but i have been reading about how larger guns can shoot off target with the triger mechanism being not of high quality or of the gun just being hard to travel because of its size.
I usually spear in reefs and rock areas and somewhat venture mildly into bluewater.

my final question is , what are some techniques that u do that can help improve ur shot and accuracy on a moving target,

and what would be a good gun for accuracy, im thinking the rob allen 110cm sparid.

 

[miles]

Hiya

Lets start off with your gun. Is it accurate when you're shooting reef fish or slow moving fish? The easiest way to check would be to make a stationary target and shoot at it a couple of time, taking note of where the spear penetrates it.

Many things can influence the accuracy of a gun. A bent spear, your flopper being flared open too much, over-powering the gun, incorrect aiming, etc, etc. Generally, a euro-type gun should be able to handle a maximum of 2x16mm bands or a single 20mm band. The longer length guns, like your 130cm Omer, is prone to barrel flex, especially the alluminuim barrels.

Often its the spearo's aiming that isn't correct. With railguns i tend to aim down the side. Its difficult to explain, but i'll try: when aiming over the top of your gun, you have a smaller target to hit, where-as aiming down the side of your barrel, the whole length of your fish is the target, offering you a greater chance of hitting the fish should your aim be off. A easy way is to turn your gun on its side, like the cool gangsters shoot in the movies!! This way, you'd still be aiming down the side of the gun.

Once you get accustomed to your gun and how it fires, you'll pretty soon stop aiming and start shooting instinctively. Pretty much like when you point at an object with your finger, you point the gun and your spear will hit where you're looking. (Many spearo's shoot this way, but it takes time to practice and time to get to know your gun!!)

Happy hunting!!

Regards
miles

 

[Joker Fox]

thanks dude

 

[azapa]

what do i know, but on moving fish shoot for their "noses" and you'll probably end up with a nice gill plate hit.. works, sometimes, for me

PS: don't try to aim the gun. just point and shoot reaction style. Aiming is fine for static targets where you can straighten your arm, line up the sights, and squeeze the trigger (I almost said "take a half breath" before the squeeze the trigger part, but it does not apply too well Without fail, every time I try to aim a speargun I miss. Most shots indeed are with bent arms and often at an angle to the body (hence: not aimed)

 

[James T]

Having missed lots of larger fish close in and hitting smaller fish further away I think I know what affects my accuracy the most - and it isn't the gun!

The things I reckon most frequently cause me to make a poor shot are:

1. Not having straigtened out arms, e.g if I am hiding in kelp and my arms are bent trying to conceal myself - I frequently miss what I think are very easy targets
2. Snatching at the trigger - again I think I have a dead cert so I pull the trigger too hard and the gun direction is altered as a result - I need to concentrate on the 'even pull'

Most of the time if I have straight arms and gently squeeze I have a reliable aim. I do not even conciously sight the gun or look along the barrel - it becomes a bit of an instinctive reaction. Often if I slow down and take careful aim I even get nervous!!

 

[MARMIR]

...Just to put a little bit of fog in your mind I would suggest to do the other way round of what has been said so far.......I would suggest you to do exactly as any target shooter does when shooting to a static target....just aim the target, all your concentration must be focused on keeping the gun on the target, meanwhile your finger pull the trigger with a costant pressure (if the weight of the trigger is high,
constantly increase the effort on pulling the trigger) but remember: your mind and your arm are doing anything to keep the gun on target. When the shaft is released you'll be suprised (you should NOT know when your gun will shoot).
I would suggest to practice a little bit whit any kind of weapon you have or borrowed....
If your mind says "now I pull the trigger" you'll miss.....
The above is a good way to be accurate with fish that swim slow or are static....
Yes, I'm sure you will not find many of them but it's a good point to start from....
After a good time of practice you'll be able to apply this procedure to swimming fishes as well....your misses will decrease drastically...

Pls let us know....

 

[azapa]

...Just to put a little bit of fog in your mind I would suggest to do the other way round of what has been said so far.......I would suggest you to do exactly as any target shooter does when shooting to a static target....just aim the target, all your concentration must be focused on keeping the gun on the target, meanwhile your finger pull the trigger with a costant pressure (if the weight of the trigger is high,
constantly increase the effort on pulling the trigger) but remember: your mind and your arm are doing anything to keep the gun on target. When the shaft is released you'll be suprised (you should NOT know when your gun will shoot).
I would suggest to practice a little bit whit any kind of weapon you have or borrowed....
If your mind says "now I pull the trigger" you'll miss.....
The above is a good way to be accurate with fish that swim slow or are static....
Yes, I'm sure you will not find many of them but it's a good point to start from....
After a good time of practice you'll be able to apply this procedure to swimming fishes as well....your misses will decrease drastically...

Pls let us know....

good idea Marmir. In target and assault type shooting that trigger technique is called a "surprise break" when as you say, pressure is increased slowly until gun goes off. In such firearms there is an easy test to see how the shooter does: fill the magazine but leave one round without primer (detonator) 90% of shooters on letting the hammer fall on this duff round will snatch the gun down.

to be honest though, these advanced techniques I can do with rifle or pistol, but they have never worked underwater with too many inputs as there are. or maybe I do it and don't notice?? will try this weekend though...

 

[jimy286]

Just read all the threds EVORYone misses///even the good spearos.

Ok shoot at a target but it is alot diffrent with a real fish...just gota keep going and you will keep hiting.

Good luk

 

[MARMIR]

,......there are many reasons to follow such technique.....

 

[Pastor]

I'm going to jump into the Miles camp, it's more or less the same advice I was given by the best spearo I ever knew.

Lets start off with your gun. Is it accurate when you're shooting reef fish or slow moving fish? The easiest way to check would be to make a stationary target and shoot at it a couple of time, taking note of where the spear penetrates it.

Do the target practice, time put in here will always pay dividends on a hunt. Whacking a fish should be second nature.

Many things can influence the accuracy of a gun. A bent spear, your flopper being flared open too much, over-powering the gun, incorrect aiming, etc, etc. Generally, a euro-type gun should be able to handle a maximum of 2x16mm bands or a single 20mm band. The longer length guns, like your 130cm Omer, is prone to barrel flex, especially the alluminuim barrels.

I would add to this considering James' post that if there is a big difference in the shot between when having a straight or bent arm that the gun is over powered

A easy way is to turn your gun on its side, like the cool gangsters shoot in the movies!! This way, you'd still be aiming down the side of the gun.

Alison's technique Miles? This is a brilliant way to shoot a railgun, most inaccuracies in aiming are in the vertical direction. The horizontal is taken care of in the basic pointing yes? The problem is that the greatest inaccuracy corresponds with the smallest dimension of the fish. Turning the gun in line with the long axis of the fish removes most of the ambiguity of a shot and will result in more fish in the bag

Once you get accustomed to your gun and how it fires, you'll pretty soon stop aiming and start shooting instinctively. Pretty much like when you point at an object with your finger, you point the gun and your spear will hit where you're looking. (Many spearo's shoot this way, but it takes time to practice and time to get to know your gun!!)

This is the way I shoot now with my mid handled guns. I found them very difficult to aim compared to my old Robbie. The technique apparently is taught to the special forces I was told recently. Basically it's not sighting the gun but rather just pointing the spear at the bit of the fish you want to hit. Try this, hold your arm beside you like a gun slinger and point your finger at a small object at the other side of the room; get someone to sight down it and I guarantee that the aim will be spot on. Now try the same thing with an unloaded gun, I'll bet you're still spot on. I can hit within a 2" diameter at 16ft which is enough for most fish. Like Miles says it takes a little time and practice but I think it's worth the time.

Shooting a moving target is difficult, if anyone tells you different don't believe them. Time spent hunting moving fish is the only way. The trick is to shoot at a point the fish will be at the time the shaft gets there, so aim in front of the fish. How far ahead depends on how fast the fish is moving and how far away it is. I confess I'm total crap at this, thankfully most of the fish I shoot are very slow moving at the time of the shot.

I find that when shooting fish in a school it pays to single out a fish asap but remembering that the biggest ones are usually towards the centre to back of the school. Once you have singled out your fish stay with it even if a bigger one comes into view. Any indecision will probably give the fish time to move on and spoil your day. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

 

[spaghetti]

My 3 cents:
-First: a 130 is very long and difficult to handle, especially if it's your first speargun. I guess many issues come from the long length. It's very hard to track/swing a 130. Best technique is DON'T do any side swinging at all: best way to aim such a long gun is to bend your arm backwards, redirect and then straighten your arm forward to the target.
-it's very difficult to hunt fish when in schools/groups, because schools always have a sort of sentinel alarm system: if you scare one, you scare them all. Once they get nervous, they start swimming faster and you will certainly get jammed by all those fishes and you will loose precious time trying to make a decision on WHICH ONE to shoot among the lot. So the best thing, even if they are dozens, is to focus on ONE single fish, track him calmly until he comes at range, and never change target, unless your first target fish disappears.
Have three extra tips:
1)NEVER target the first one of the row.
2)If the fish come towards you frontally, don't wait for him to turn on a side, but shoot him straight to his face.
3)close target: aim to the gill plate. distant target: aim to his lips and one inch above his head.
Enjoy.

 

[spadefish]

Hi,

I had similar problems about two years ago. Suddenly I could not hit a fish! At the time we had a visiting Spanish diver videotaping our Nationals and I explained my frustrations at missing and badly hitting the fish I was hitting - aspecially at longer range (I used a 115cm gun with 7mm spears). We carefully went looked at the video footage and could see that the spear was starting in the correctly but dropping as it left the muzzle. We then had a look at the muzzel and could see a point where ther had clearly been contcat - small flattend areas on the inside of the muzzel. Looking closer at the crimp - on the edge of the crimp there was a shiny copper spot - clearly the point of contact. I filed this point down but was never really happy with it.

I have subesequently changed to using Dyneema and the accuracy of my guns has returned to where it was. I think the OMER muzzels are designed for slightly lighter spears and probably lighter Mono. The softer Dyneema may offer more drag in the water, but I would rather have accuracy than the slightly quicker spear.

I would suggest you have a careful look at the muzzel and the crimp to see if there is contact when you fire.

Good luck

 

[tuffstuff]

Point and shoot you should be familiar enough with the gun to do so.Find the fat one in the school and shoot OR wait and see if any larger fish are following the school.

 

[azapa]

3 shots 3 fish this weekend, no aiming and bent arm! think the shot and hit positively and they seem to drive home OK, have doubts and you seem to miss. In that sense, rifles and pistols are very different: the sights must be used in most cases. Spearing is more like using a shotgun in the sense of aiming. (or not).

 

[MARMIR]

Azapa,
...I would strongly desagree but since you catch so many fish I would change my mind....

 

[Pastor]

Azapa,
...I would strongly desagree but since you catch so many fish I would change my mind....

Do a google search on "instinctive shooting" there are dudes out there who are precision shots without even looking at their guns, bows or whatever else they are shooting.

 

[azapa]

I would say more "luck of the draw" in my case... I have a competition this Sunday, watch how I bungle every shot........... will report back

 

[spaghetti]

Hm Hmm...
I thought that this thread was about hunting when fish come in numbers in a school, which has peculiar difficulties, different than targeting a "solo" fish.
It seems however that it has become a discussion about shooting in general, in which some say to aim aligning carefully gun and target, some say just shoot instinctively.
For me, it's both right and wrong.
Some random thoughts:
1) Shooting instinctively is better, or even necessary, in many situations, especially when fish won't let you take your time to aim. But instinctive shooting doesn't mean fortuitous, casual, blind shooting. For a succesfull instinctive shooting, before you've got to know your gun: how it shoots (high, low) how's the recoil, how much range before the spear start to drop et cetera. If your familiar with this, you can shoot easy and quick, without aiming at all, and hit the target.
2) In order to know the specific ballistics of your gun, you must have done some practice aiming properly, which means aligning the three points of reference (gun butt, shaft edge, target), and training your hand and arm to the proper position and movement. Then after, when you know your gun, you may get better advantages from instinctive shooting when necessary.
3) When hunting a school of fish, unless they pass by very fast (and in this case they might have a bigger predator behind them: don't shoot, wait for the big one!) you choose a single fish to target. And if you have enough time to choose among many who will be your lucky winner, you probably also have the time to aim properly, aligning butt-shaft-target, with a straight rigid arm, et cetera et cetera et cetera.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[IB Boyd]

Just a passing thought, but how are you carrying that gun when you swim/stalk. I carry my RA 140 (primary hunting gun) in the "solidier at arms position" -when I see a passing fish Im intersted in, I pull it up from alongside my body, anticipate where the fish is going to be, and push the gun out, rather than swing it. 140-120 sized guns dont track for
s%@t. I try and eliminate tracking a target as much as I can when using a longer gun. If you are swimming with the gun out in front of you, your "window of oportunity" is going to be very limited
Good luck,
Boyd

 

[MARMIR]

Do a google search on "instinctive shooting" there are dudes out there who are precision shots without even looking at their guns, bows or whatever else they are shooting.

Hoo Pator you are provokimg me, now you have to get all that following stuff:

In the 1987 I scored 6th in PL/Free Pistol, at the national championship. PL meas that the handgun can have any shape and the trigger weight it's free (usually few grams) and the target is placed at 50 mts. In the same year I scored 11th in P10/pistol (Air compressed handgun).
Despite of what people may think this is the most difficul handgun as trigger weight is Kg 1,350 and the BARREL TIME is extremely high compared to fireguns.
I'm 2nd class in trap shooting. When I was advanced in category I could not afford to train myself for 3 hours a day (lack of time and very expensive) so I had to quit. I have been a hunter since I could hold a gun. I had a chance to go to US 15 years ago and bag a lot of
whitetail with bows (recurve/long and compound bows).
I'm a great fans of Fred Asbell an American guy who spent his life teaching instinctive shooting with bows, and shooting pheasants with bow is a lot of fan.
About 10 years ago I was involved in bench-rest too. I and a friend of mine have won some trophies with cal.6PPC so far.
Sorry folks I have to leave you now....10 good reasons to shoot by aiming the target, when possible, will follow soon...