sled diving within AIDA

[Aber]

The argument that "we are against sled-diving, but if AIDA stops supporting it, people will keep doing it, so we better look after them for better safety" is a dubious argument.

I think the following questions should be considered:

1) Is the risk involved in sled diving bigger than in the other disciplines to such an extent that AIDA should dissociate themselves from it?

2) Is it possible to minimize the risk involved in sled-diving that it's hard to argue that the difference between this discipline and the others are substantial? Is there a substantial difference between NL and VW in this regard?

3) Would minimizing the risk in sled diving involve such an amount of money and technological development that this would be out of reach for almost all divers, and thus not something AIDA should work with?

I don't have the answers, but I think these are some of the important questions to be considered.

 

[kelp princess]

I tend to agree with Apneaboy - and think those who are most experienced in sled diving can probably offer suggestions on steps forward.

kp

 

[Will]

I think the following questions should be considered:

1) Is the risk involved in sled diving bigger than in the other disciplines to such an extent that AIDA should dissociate themselves from it?

2) Is it possible to minimize the risk involved in sled-diving that it's hard to argue that the difference between this discipline and the others are substantial? Is there a substantial difference between NL and VW in this regard?

3) Would minimizing the risk in sled diving involve such an amount of money and technological development that this would be out of reach for almost all divers, and thus not something AIDA should work with?

I don't have the answers, but I think these are some of the important questions to be considered.

The first two questions are addressed with statistics in the linked document (first post). The risk is at least 200 times greater in NLT than in other disciplines (and probably more).
To summarize, compared to the four deaths in sled-diving, all the competition disciplines combined totalled two deaths that we could find: one in CWT, one in STA. The STA death was due to an existing heart condition (subject shouldn't have been signed off by doctor to freedive), while the CWT death was due to training alone. So if we compare performances with appropriate safety measures then it becomes a comparison of 4:0 (sled:non-sled).
When you then consider that for every sled dive there are probably thousands of performances amongst the other disciplines, the statistic becomes unequivocal.

The answer to question 3 doesn't look any closer. After Loic's death there were new AIDA sled-diving guidelines, followed by new accidents/deaths...

The argument that "we are against sled-diving, but if AIDA stops supporting it, people will keep doing it, so we better look after them for better safety" is a dubious argument.

Very true. If supervising hazards was AIDA's job then it should start officiating dynamic under ice attempts: there have been more recent dives in this pseudo-discipline than in NLT, and one fatality.

 

[jay cluskey]

A person who's PB is no more than say 50 metres is then doing attempts to dive to 100 metres. I don't see the logic and while I see that you cannot stop people from doing it, it will only appear as an encouragement if it is still offered on the records plate.

this is my point sands i agree totaly and dont see the logic in average divers being able to go deeper than their physical capabilities .

this discipline now needs looking at and made safer maybe halting the holiday sled diving until a minimum standard of safety can be agreed on .
it certainly needs discussion .

 

[Aber]

Yes, the history of sled-diving is fairly unequivocal. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it can't be done in a safe way, at least not in principal. If technology has been developed consistently over time, accidents are most often due to human errors, as in Scuba diving. However, development of safe technology has often involved serious accidents and loss of life. Are we willing to accept that? And a dilemma occurs when the new technology is there, with a tragic history behind it. Do we want to use it? No one wants to touch the results from research done on humans by the Nazi's during the reign of Hitler in Germany, to take an extreme example.

One important argument against NL in this regard, made in this forum previously by others, is that when something goes wrong, the consequences are substantially more severe than in other disciplines. This is a fact that it's hard to get around. Do we accept that diving is an extreme sport? I don't consider CW e.g., conducted in a safe way (according to AIDA regulations), to be an extreme sport. That's what I tell my mum and my wife, anyway

 

[Sergiu]

sled diving will continue with or without AIDA endorsement. We need to put in balance what the organisation would lose (or win) out by not recognizing the VWT and NL from now on. I'd speculate it's mostly about media coverage given by the "ultimate" depths that can be reached by using rigs to get down and up. If so, the loss would not be that big.

Yet the real risk here is that AIDA would not continue to set stricter and better standards for sled diving, as it does with the other disciplines, a situation that could lead to more accidents and subsequently eroding the credibility of freediving overall.

I see it as a must that AIDA sets stricter standards in sled diving regardless if it will recognise or not the records in such disciplines. By standards i mean minimum safety measures for ALL sled diving rigs, be it used for training or records. Standards that have at least 2 safety systems to bring one up as well as depth limits to dive based on PBs and the ability of the freediver to get back to surface on his/her one.

After a near accident last year, when i was sent down with an empty tank, so my PB in NL turned into a PB in VWT!, i could also say that a minimum standard is to have a air tank equipped with a pressure gauge. but this is already off topic, safety standards can be discussed separately.

 

[spaghetti]

NLT is actually part of the history of Freediving*, just like as VWT is part of the history of freediving, and this is not under discussion, or is it?

But it's history even since before AIDA was created, and it's history undepending from AIDA (Genoni did not register his VWT records to AIDA nor to CMAS). Those records will stay in the books even if AIDA rejects sled diving now. So obvious.

First two cents in the hat:
If AIDA rejects sled diving now, that could be a wise decision, likely to be the right decision. But bear in mind that, probably, that will not be the end of sled diving.

Second two cents in the hat:
Why do you ask yourself these questions now? Is it about the depth reached by NLT and VWT records, becoming too deep to be safe? Or do you think the problem is with the safety of sled diving per se, no matter how deep?
If the problem is the depth, there'll come a day when CWT too will bring the same problem, the same questions.


*Is it history? Yes, it is
Americo Santarelli Brazil -44 - 1960
Enzo Maiorca Italy -45 Siracusa 1960
Americo Santarelli Brazil -46 - 1960
Enzo Maiorca Italy -54 - 1965
Teteke Williams Polynesia -59 - 1965
Jacques Mayol France -60 - 1966
Enzo Maiorca Italy -62 - 1966
Bob Croft America -64 - 1967
Enzo Maiorca Italy -64 - 1967
Bob Croft USA -67 - 1967
Jacques Mayol France -71 - 1967
Bob Croft USA -73 - 1968
Enzo Maiorca Italy -74 - 1970
Jacques Mayol France -76 - 1970
Enzo Maiorca Italy -77 - 1971
Enzo Maiorca Italy -78 - 1972
Enzo Maiorca Italy -80 - 1973
Jacques Mayol France -86 - 1973
Enzo Maiorca Italy -87 - 1974
Jacques Mayol France -92 - 1975
Jacques Mayol France -101 - 1976
Jacques Mayol France -105 - 1983
Enzo Maiorca Italy -101 - 1988
Pipin Ferreras Cuba -112 - 1989
Pipin Ferreras Cuba -115 - 1991
Umberto Pelizzari Italy -118 - 1991
Pipin Ferreras Cuba -120 - 1992
Umberto Pelizzari Italy -123 - 1993
Pipin Ferreras Cuba -125 - 1993
Pipin Ferreras Cuba -127 - 1994
Pipin Ferreras Cuba -128 - 1995
Umberto Pelizzari Italy -131 - 1996
Gianluca Genoni Italy -135 - 1998
Leferme 137 France -1999
Pelizzari 150 Italy -1999
Leferme 154 France -2001
Leferme 171 -2004
Nitsch 214 - 2007

 

[Mullins]

The concerns aren't limited to safety. We are also worried about the affect sled dives have on the image of freediving. The sport is struggling for credibility and we battle to explain to people that the disciplines are genuine athletic events, not simply tests of the participants' risk appetite. But that's exactly what NLT is - it's all about risk, equalising and logistics. A stunt and an exhibition, not a sport.

Spaghetti - I think the safety problem is fundamental to NLT rather than a function of depth. Any time you rely on equipment to take you deeper than you can swim up, you greatly increase the risk of a major accident.

 

[Goran Colak]

I think we have forget what FREE in free diving means. If we ever want to be a serious sport and maybe one day close to Olympic family of sports we need to act now and point this sport in the right direction. And that's sport, athleticism and competitions.

First of all where on Earth you can find a sports discipline with set of records in which there is no competitions, what kind of sport discipline is that? Second the free part is magically vanish and that part is important believe it or not. If NLT is free diving then scooter DYN is to... right, you want stunts, here you go.. you can go a mile long like that. O2 static? Yes please... Under ice diving, naked under ice... NLT is the same category like all mentioned before. It's a stund, magnet for self promotion and media... has nothing to do with free diving and sport in general.

And speaking about what's right and wrong... individual record attempts are right over there next to wrong. Can Michael Phelps make record event in 200 fly just for him self... in duration of 14days? Of course not... can any other serious sport do the same thing? So why on Earth are we doing it? You do not even have the same set of rules for competitions and record attempts (lets say OT). We are trying (at least I think) to make free diving serious an recognized sport but like this we will always be crazy stand individuals that are doing some idiotic and unsafe stuff.

We need competitions, world championships, continental championships.. and we need all the best athletes on that competitions... and then we can start talking about television, media, money, sponsors, real competitions and real sporting events... with people diving against each others for victory. Stunts, individual attempts, self promotion and similar things will get us nowhere, trust me on that.

 

[apneaboy]

Hmm, where to start, lots of points

@ Will. Good point about the introduction of no limits as a new part of the sport. Nowadays I can't even make a brew at work without a bloke coming around every year to check my kettle is safe. (fact!) So yeah, we wouldn't have NL now i suppose.

The fact is that disciplines that use some form of weight to get the diver down and other means to get them up have been used for a long long time. Before competition. Since the introduction of no limits World records they have been just that as i'm sure a no limits dive off competition would get messy, this is why we don't have NL competitions but having said that the skandalopetra games has a good safety record. Rather than calling no limits a stunt it is really about seeing how deep a human can go holding their breath, the human potential.

Underwater scooter dynamics? The filming PFI did on scooters recently was a great video and will encourage divers into the sport when they see it, maybe not an Olympic sport though you are right..... well....... probably right ;-)

Are the statistics we are throwing around about deaths in Freediving going to include anyone who has ever died whilst doing apnea, including spearfishing, because if that is the case there will be a spike in the number of deaths that were not related to sled diving. I think Trux has a database. Has there ever been a death in a record attempt NL or VWT?

One big question about promoting our sport to Goran. Has No limits ever been used to promote Freediving to the general population and has it ever helped increase the number of Freedivers participating? Yes it has (oops should have waited for your own answer, sorry its bedtime). It isn't all self promotion and even if that was the intention it has increased numbers in participation. The competition between Mayol and Maiorca as portrayed in the Big Blue is a massive part of our sports success. Umberto inspired a generation to Freedive and he continues to do so through the apnea academy, and although his Constant weight dives are the purest form of Freediving it is true that the competition to gain the World record doing No limits is a big part of the story that has made his name. The record still standing of Herbert generates intrigue amongst non Freedivers as to how it is even possible, making people want to learn more and see what its about. He gets the sport of Freediving more widely recognised. Tanya Streeter is successful in a large part due to her long standing No limits world record. This fame has helped get the sport aired on National TV programmes. These people are ambassadors. As are the other top athletes, including some posting now. Like I said i'm just having my opinion about the discipline(s) being removed.

You want sponsorship, we need exposure of all sorts. This drives people into the sport, the sport grows, more money is introduced, manufacturers get on board, the media see the benefit in sponsoring big events, we know this though. Just thought i'd emphasise the point.

When I discuss No limits to new divers or non divers i make a clear distinction between the events that require the diver to complete the dive without mechanical aid. NL/VWT are done in apnea, which they are Freediving nonetheless, but yes risks are increased. Eventually most disciplines will be at such a high level that the safety of the divers will be questioned. It is not that far away either, 120m + dives are serious dives.

It seems now that sled diving safety has been streamlined to a minimum of a sonar, a winch and a couple of safety divers. Reliant more on technology than physical safety divers.

@ Island sands. The truth of the matter is that if we had unlimited resources, time and money we would change the way we ran all Freediving activities, you are completely correct. Its the extra safety diver, and a safety diver for the safety diver, and a boat, and a spare engine, and a spare boat argument. How far can you take it?

@ Goran. Taking your example of swimming, how many world records outside of the Olympic ideal exist? Phelps could go break a world record for swimming the English channel if he wanted. Or a mad random one and it won't affect the perception of swimmers in the Olympics. Swimming of all types is enjoyed by millions, the Olympics is the tiny tip on the iceberg. Give people the credit for understanding the distinction between how disciplines in the sport are done.

Just my ten pence.

I just wish you all safe and happy Freediving. The written word is a bit harsh in discussions like this. I just want to point out that I love you all, hope to see you somewhere wet and warm soon enough

 

[Mullins]

@ Goran. Taking your example of swimming, how many world records outside of the Olympic ideal exist? Phelps could go break a world record for swimming the English channel if he wanted. Or a mad random one and it won't affect the perception of swimmers in the Olympics.

To hop in here... it wouldn't affect the perception of swimmers precisely because English channel swimming isn't recognised by the IOC. If the IOC (or FINA) did recognise things like ice swimming and cave swimming and upside-down swimming alongside the pool events, perception of the sport would be affected. The existing events would be hurt by association with stunts, spectacles and demonstrations.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

First of all where on Earth you can find a sports discipline with set of records in which there is no competitions, what kind of sport discipline is that?

There are actually many well established sports with exactly that. Off the top of my head land speed car record, maximum speed in skiing, boating, max distance in one hour cycling, they are numerous.

On a philosophical level, I absolutely agree that disciplines like CWT/CNF and to a far extent STA/DYN/DNF is the true 'free' form of freediving, and the ones to promote in eg. an Olympic spirit, with competitions, championships, etc. This is the form of apnea I too wish to see regularly on television.

However, on a pragmatic level, I must accept that especially NLT will always captivate the imagination for the simple fact that it reaches the deepest. Yes, it puts the life of the enacter into technical equipment that can screw up, but so does the car land speed record, or reaching the frozen poles. One can disagree with the philosophy of seeking an absolute for nothing other than the absolute, but that is buried in human nature.

When I put emphasis on the history of weight assisted freediving, I'm not saying that if its old, we must stick to it forever. (Murder is also a very old human activity.) My point is that its a simple idea to use some form of detachable ballast to speed one's decent into the blue, which has aided fishers and gatherers from ancient Greece to modern Thailand, and this millenia before Chatzistathis and Raimondo Bucher. One could almost suggest that weight assisted freediving is the oldest form of apnea in that respect (the aquatic ape hypothesis notwithstanding). Therefore, it's a natural occurence in the human world, as is the need to climb insanely tall mountains, regardless of horrific, avoidable mortalities and philosophical stance.

And in that respect, I'm still strongly against fleeing from these challenges, because that would be AIDA saying 'people kill themselves, but we got nothing to do with it'. In my opinion, that was CMAS' move around 1990, and that made apnea safety worse. And regardless of anything else, Audrey Mestre's avoidable, tragic death in 2002, which was shattering for the general image of freediving, also struck AIDA, even if it wasn't sanctioned by AIDA. Anything shattering on freediving is shattering on AIDA no matter the details (as in earlier decades on CMAS), and I find it appaling if refusing to take a stand and continously assist those that inevitably seek out such an activity. Also because this absolute form still have a certain, albeit limited, sportive validity.

It's horrible if AIDA's sled guidelines has had little or no effect. But maybe it is because those guidelines or similar documents are simply not being followed around the world. Or perhaps they are inadequate in their current form. I don't know.

It's good that we go crazy when these deaths occur.

 

[Unclejake]

We believe that removal of NLT from AIDA's record annals and discontinuing further record attempts ....... would have little negative impact on 99.3% of AIDA members while greatly benefitting societal perception of the sport.

I wonder if Freedivers forget how they personally viewed the sport before they got involved and learnt a bit about it.

The wider population simply thinks you are all insane. They don't care about (nor do they understand) the difference between No Fins and No Limits. They just read that someone went down 300 feet without a SCUBA tank.

Discouraging sled diving for the purpose of safety seems reasonable. Discouraging sled diving for the purposes of 'societal perception' seems less productive.

Pool freediving might become an Olympic sport one day in the far off future. Deep diving wont. Sleds won't make any difference to what outsiders think about Freediving.

 

[Mullins]

The wider population simply thinks you are all insane. They don't care about (nor do they understand) the difference between No Fins and No Limits.

Isn't that the problem, though? Most of the "you're all insane" perspective is the product of sled dives representing freediving in the first place. Pipin, Streeter, The Big Blue etc. Time to educate them a little? The NZ public seems a lot more clued up about the distinction these days, thanks to some decent media coverage.

 

[chrismar]

A few points.

First, this is not an attempt to stop anyone from getting on a sled. Nor is it a way to close our ears and pretend it doesn't happen. It is an attempt to get AIDA to step away from ratifying these dives. We are not trying to take your sleds away from you, nor will it mean that safety guidelines will no longer be given out by AIDA.

Second, the perception issue is multifaceted. You have the dilution of other disciplines, as well as the disciplines being far from 'free'. You also have the fact that people know only the depths and don't know or care how they were achieved. Was Walter Steyn's 100m constant weight dive or Ben Noble's 101m no limits dive more difficult? All the public knows it that Ben was the deepest Australian at the time. In a world where we O2 statics were ratified by AIDA, what would you say the longest breath-hold was? It's a pretty close analogy. Most importantly, there is the danger aspect. Stepping away and saying that these are dangerous dives and therefore we will not encourage people to push deeper by ratifying them sends a message. Perhaps over time we will no longer be considered stuntmen or crazies, but instead considered sportsmen? That would be nice, wouldn't it?

For the safety aspect, I don't think constant weight disciplines will ever reach the same danger level. After all, you were intending to swim up. If you get tangled, you disconnect and swim back up. If your fin breaks or you black out, your safety divers or the counterbalance will take you home. In no limits in particular, the best way back is the one you're already using. That means if something goes wrong, your backup is very much a secondary solution. The sheer number of injuries and deaths both in record attempts and when training for them, when compared with constant weight training, attests to this inherent danger. I am not including other apnea activities in either side of the argument, as we are only debating whether AIDA should ratify these attempts.

AIDA NZ, like Denmark, doesn't ratify no limits already. It bears little similarity to the competitive disciplines, it's inherently more dangerous and the expense involved for athletes is now immense. I've only been competing for a few years, but already I've met a half dozen divers that have had serious incidents on sleds and one who is no longer with us. Compared with the number of people that attempt records in these disciplines, that's a pretty bad record. Please consider the issue calmly and impartially, then let your AIDA national know your thoughts, one way or the other.

 

[Unclejake]

Isn't that the problem, though? Most of the "you're all insane" perspective is the product of sled dives.

I don't see public perception of Freediving as a problem, but I am not a freediver and I don't travel outside of NZ so I am not well qualified to comment. I expect the public thinks a sled is safer than CNF

Lots of people think NASCAR is a disgrace and a huge waste of resources. Few understand the technical limitations imposed on the teams, yet hundreds of thousands attend race meetings. The race teams don't give a stuff what the rest of the world thinks. They just want to go racing.

One could excuse the general public of considering the desire to decend 100 meters into the ocean on breathold a bit odd. Taking formal recognition of sleds out of the equation will not change that much.

I say these things about public perception because I believe them to be true. There is still a valid argument to cease recognising sled dives for safety reasons (I happen to agree with that plan, but it is none of my business really).

Regardless of what AIDA decides; VWT sled dives will still happen and those with the funding and desire will continue to practice NLTs.

 

[Mullins]

Perception is a problem insofar as it limits participation in the sport, its recognition and the funding athletes can get. Freediving doesn't have the same mass media appeal of Nascar (though it does have some), so it relies more on personal interest to get coverage. With more participants and a wider appreciation for the sport, that interest would rise.

Participation-wise, in NZ I think people are drawn to the sporting aspect rather than the extreme side of freediving. Well, that or they just want to kill more fish.

 

[Unclejake]

I completely agree with your statement (above), but can't agree that sleds have anything to do with it.

Do you reckon that the best funded women's beach volleyball athletes get chosen for their skill? LOL

 

[Mullins]

You don't reckon sled diving fosters an extreme image that puts people off participating?

We need to get Smoo involved, methinks.

 

[Unclejake]

I would be astounded if 1 in 1,000 ordinary people even knew what a freediving sled was.

Anyway, I have strayed the thread slightly off-topic (again), and VWT doesn't need a sled, so back to the simple question: Should AIDA stop acknowledging weight and/or buoyancy assisted dives?

EDIT: One could argue that FIM was weight assisted so perhaps my wording (above) is not perfect