I agree: the argument that NL is not demanding enough (that it is not athletic) is very weak. In fact it is not an argument at all. I am sure that by disacotiating from NL the general public wouldn't perceive AIDA as more athletic organisation.
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sled diving within AIDA
- Thread starter Will
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Thread Status: Hello
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L'apnea potrà rientrare nei programmi Olimpici solo quando deciderà di passare dai guinness, dai falsi record, dalle imprese, dalla misticità,...al vero sport!
Da anni dico che, a proposito di sport in ambienti estremi, il ns percorso deve essere simile al passaggio fatto dall'alpinismo verso l'arrampicata sportiva.
Questa ora è realtà!
Sport climbing shortlisted for the 2020 Olympic Games - climbing news, mountaineering.
Da anni dico che, a proposito di sport in ambienti estremi, il ns percorso deve essere simile al passaggio fatto dall'alpinismo verso l'arrampicata sportiva.
Questa ora è realtà!
Sport climbing shortlisted for the 2020 Olympic Games - climbing news, mountaineering.
Keep in mind there is a very 'safe' and spectator friendly way of practicing no-limits: Pressure Chamber.
The athlete enters the hyperbaric chamber, is lowered into a small cannister of water, and the operator begins to increase the pressure at a fast rate. When the target 'depth' is reached, the pressure is decreased until surface pressure is reached. Apnea decompression stops could be added by the operator. Or, even better, the athlete could control the descent/ascent rate with a joystick under water, and the outside operator could over-ride that in an emergency.
That's basically no-limits. It's the only event which can be done in a pressure chamber. And using that method the public could see every facial expression on the diver's face. No scuba divers or underwater cameras needed. No expensive logistics, backup systems, lift bags, or anything.
In that, its purest form, the pressure-chamber dive seems more like a scientific experiment than a sport.
The athlete enters the hyperbaric chamber, is lowered into a small cannister of water, and the operator begins to increase the pressure at a fast rate. When the target 'depth' is reached, the pressure is decreased until surface pressure is reached. Apnea decompression stops could be added by the operator. Or, even better, the athlete could control the descent/ascent rate with a joystick under water, and the outside operator could over-ride that in an emergency.
That's basically no-limits. It's the only event which can be done in a pressure chamber. And using that method the public could see every facial expression on the diver's face. No scuba divers or underwater cameras needed. No expensive logistics, backup systems, lift bags, or anything.
In that, its purest form, the pressure-chamber dive seems more like a scientific experiment than a sport.
That's interesting!
However, I think that with a slight modification also CWT and DNF fit that: simply add a rope attached to the "lets-call-it-free" diver on one side and a dynamometer on the other side, and link the pressure change with the force on the dynamometer... ok, you'll need two dynamometers, one for descent and one for ascent.
S.
Way off topic but anyway: One thing to remember is that AIDA is operated completely on a volunteer and democratic base. Therefore any creation/change of rules or procedures takes a lot of time as it has to travel through the required process with very little resources. Being based on volunteer work (by experts in their own separate fields) I don´t belive a NLT guideline would actually require an increase of AIDA fees. However I belive it will take a long time to get it approved and in use (especially when the Assembly is disagreeing on most matters). However the best way to speed up this process is to, instead of complaining here on DB, to become active in your local AIDA and offer your expertise and time when and where needed (for free).
I´ll vote Dave for AIDA president if the day comes.
back to topic - >
Yes, but I do not understand what are you implying... Numerous sports could be practised in the similar fashion. Not so long ago a cyclist died in a fall (i think it was on Giro di Italia). Of course we could avoid that by making them compete on stationary bicycles in a safe environment.
Yes and pigs will fly soon, omg i think hypoxic trainings are having bad effects on your brains, i think that a good proposal will be writing some saefty protocols and try to see if they could work properly or not instead of waisting time on foolish things about freediving and how can we make it in laboratory or in dry land. It was supposed to be a serious post.
The chamber near us has a very small door and would not fit a sled in it.
Safety standards need to be increased and maybe even to a point where it becomes difficult for organisers to arrange and athletes to afford. All deep dives should have strict safety rules.
If these recommendations are put into place any incident that occurs would be scrutinized against what should have been done putting the owners on the organisers with the risk of liability to get it right.
The organisers will be compared to what a prudent organiser should have done.
Safety standards need to be increased and maybe even to a point where it becomes difficult for organisers to arrange and athletes to afford. All deep dives should have strict safety rules.
If these recommendations are put into place any incident that occurs would be scrutinized against what should have been done putting the owners on the organisers with the risk of liability to get it right.
The organisers will be compared to what a prudent organiser should have done.
Hi,
here are my 5 cents:
STA: good safe method for tranning apnea, but not sportive.
VWT & NLT: very cool for trying new depths, but neither of them are freediving or sportive, more like an extreme plunge into the deep.
I agree that AIDA would benefit from removing sled diving, they are not sportive. Still that doen't mean that we shouldn't use it, it's a great experience.
here are my 5 cents:
- Freediving: CNF & CWT only.
- Apnea: DNF & DYN only.
STA: good safe method for tranning apnea, but not sportive.
VWT & NLT: very cool for trying new depths, but neither of them are freediving or sportive, more like an extreme plunge into the deep.
I agree that AIDA would benefit from removing sled diving, they are not sportive. Still that doen't mean that we shouldn't use it, it's a great experience.
Rik, thanks for taking the time to write a structured response. However I find your comments unsubstantiated and misleading. In general you criticize the document for being vague (which might have some truth, as it was put together quickly, as a preliminary overview to encourage an AIDA referendum), but you are even more vague in the claims you put forward against it!
On timing the proposal.
Timing is important. Sled national record attempts were planned for the immediate future, and by disassociating AIDA from the discipline or at least suspending record attempts any further defamation can be avoided. I have yet to see any "emotive anti-sled wave" in response to the recent incident - all reasoning seems to be fairly objective and clinical, which is healthy and productive.
On the social effects on AIDA.
The problem is that in the last two fatalities safety rules WERE followed, and they were evidently insufficient. After the last fatality (2007) safety guidelines were revised, but evidently these were insufficient also, as there have been several incidents and now another death. It is the position of the proposers that no matter how much time and energy AIDA's limited pool of volunteers invest in incident investigation and writing guidelines, sled diving will continue to tarnish the reputation of our organization, as it has done for the last 10 years.
What are sportive disciplines?
The adjective we have used is not so much 'sportive' but 'athletic.' The degree of athleticism required for NLT is negligible compared to all the competitive disciplines. Granted, nude CNF would be the most pure form of freediving, but all the competitive depth disciplines require a great degree of athleticism, in the same way that running & cycling are athletic sports, while Formula One isn't.
Did AIDA made sled diving safer?
I'm interested that you think "the use of the variable weight and no limits seems to increase." What do you base this opinion on - sled diving in the Netherlands it seems? You doubt the relevance of the statistics in the document, but make vague and unreferenced claims yourself on the trends of the sport.
The only resource that has tracked AIDA-registered sled diving around the world (APNEA.cz - Freediving and Apnea Resources) shows a marked DECREASE in the incidence of such dives in the last 10 years, in both disciplines, as documented in the proposal. And yet the death rate has remained the same.
However the real point is the fact that there is such a high fatality rate, whether subtly increasing or decreasing, while in the other disciplines there have been ZERO deaths in training/competitions with safety systems in place.
Relative risk
We chose to analyze the ratio of 'the number of mortalities per AIDA registered dive' as those are the only factual statistics available. Obviously for every registered dive there are many training dives (perhaps 100?), but this figure will be more or less the same for the various disciplines - for it to affect the statistics it would have to vary by several orders of magnitude.
So we can use a measure of the number of mortalities occurring in an interval divided by the number of AIDA-registered dives in the interval as a relevant index of the death rate. Comparison of this ratio between disciplines yields the relative risk.
Comparability of specific NLT cases is immaterial - the relevant factor is fatality/permanent injury, and they are all comparable in this regard. The idea that "different causes cannot be used to make statements about the discipline's safety" sounds similar to arguments to legalize guns. It's the gun (sled diving) that provides a vehicle for those "different causes" to become deaths.
Rik you claim that the paper doesn't contain facts, and that you would be happy to "gather significant evidence." I think I speak on behalf of about half a dozen AIDA nationals (so far) in saying that any detailed evidence (referenced) and analysis would be welcomed on this subject.
In the meantime, may I leave you with an interesting statistic:
There have been 6 sled-divers who have exceeded 150m in the last 9 years. Where are they now?
• 2 are alive
• 2 suffered moderate to severe DCS (resulting in partial paralysis in one case, resolved only after months of treatment and rehabilitation).
• 2 are dead
Why would you even need a sled? In the chamber you don't need a sled, the pressure change is controlled by a valve or computer.
You could never do constant weight style events in a chamber. Measuring thrust force in a static water column has nothing to do with dynamic movement. Similarly you could not simulate sink drag either.
What is the point of my post about pressure chamber diving? Well, if you want AIDA to keep sanctioning no-limits, and you want AIDA to make 'strict safety protocols' for no-limits, then the answer is obvious: the only version of no-limits that AIDA would allow would be pressure chamber diving, since it is the only safe, controlled version.
So, you have three choices:
1. AIDA stops recognizing no-limits
2. AIDA changes rules to make no limits safe. Only pressure chamber diving is allowed.
3. AIDA continues to allow open ocean (unsafe) no-limits dives.
You make a very peculiar suggestion, cause you could make a similar stunt in reverse. You mimick the decreasing low PO2 on the top of Mount Everest, also in a pressure champer, while a subject walks on a steep treadmill to mimick going up a mountain, eg. to test if that person can make it without oxygen. You could even surpass technically the 8848 meters height of Everest if you want to and claim a new world record in reaching an Earth summit that doesn't exist.
But who in the hell would care? It's the risk of actually going out there and do it in the real world, that attracts people's curiosity. That's why most of us know the names Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay, and not Jim-What's-His-Lab. Similarly, who in the heck would care about a pressure chamber breathhold record as opposed to the 'real thing' out there in the blue, where the risks are palpable.
Yet here we are, trying to remove the risk of doing it in the real world by improving technology and practices. The ideal sled wouldn't be quite as tedious as a lab test, but it would sanitise the discipline in a similar kind of way. Personally I don't really respect outright risk-taking anyway. I'm much more interested in discipline, athleticism, commitment etc etc.
It is true that people often respect risk takers. Many of the most famous kayak voyages were transoceanic solo journeys, and many of the kayakers died in the attempt.
So, I guess if risk is what attracts the attention, then we should switch to a solo no-limits event. No safety systems, a single lift mechanism only, no paramedics, no boat, no safety freedivers, just one lone guy in the middle of the ocean, with an automated camera system.
It reminds me of 'freeclimbers', people who climb without any safety gear.
So, I guess if risk is what attracts the attention, then we should switch to a solo no-limits event. No safety systems, a single lift mechanism only, no paramedics, no boat, no safety freedivers, just one lone guy in the middle of the ocean, with an automated camera system.
It reminds me of 'freeclimbers', people who climb without any safety gear.
I've written and re-written this post many times but decided to stick to a very simple point on what doesn't sit well with me with NLT and AIDA: it's the fact that in the case of NLT, AIDA is acting like the Guiness Book of Records instead of the Association which is responsible for the development of apnea.
Ultimately I think there needs to be a decision on whether to embrace it (i.e. try to develop it, educate on it, make it safer etc) or drop it.
Either way I would be more comfortable with than the current rather odd and confusing status of NLT (i.e. we want to publish it when there is a record but don't really want to know otherwise).
I think arguments about what CMAS will do should not come into it either - AIDA should have the confidence to make its own decisions on NLT based on what AIDA thinks is the right thing to for its members and freediving in general.
Just my current thoughts - no disrespect to anyone involved or take away some of the great work that AIDA is doing otherwise.
Ultimately I think there needs to be a decision on whether to embrace it (i.e. try to develop it, educate on it, make it safer etc) or drop it.
Either way I would be more comfortable with than the current rather odd and confusing status of NLT (i.e. we want to publish it when there is a record but don't really want to know otherwise).
I think arguments about what CMAS will do should not come into it either - AIDA should have the confidence to make its own decisions on NLT based on what AIDA thinks is the right thing to for its members and freediving in general.
Just my current thoughts - no disrespect to anyone involved or take away some of the great work that AIDA is doing otherwise.
That's really unfair to read that into it. You don't choose the one extreme in order to flee from the opposite extreme. You constantly seek the golden mean.
Agreed completely. If you don't want to promote it and embrace it, then why are you involved with it at all?
Personally I know of only two variable weight competitions, and both were canceled. One was organized by Pierre Frolla, and was set to occur in 2006. The format was 100m depth, two divers go down, the first back from 100m wins. The winner moves to the next round. Recipe for DCS! Sprint up from 100m basically. Same format as the 2005 Monaco contest.
The other variable weight competition was organized by Sebastien Murat also around 2006, and also canceled.
Holding a no-limits competition bears a lot of resemblance to a scuba diving competition. The classic (unofficial) scuba diving competition which has been waged all over the world in many places is simple. Take a single 80cf (18L) scuba tank with AIR, and dive as deep as you possibly can. In fact in my area there is a specific diving spot where people go to compete against each other in this ridiculously dangerous sport, and even after a guy fails to come up (=dies), the others keep going down one after another to beat each other.
The effects of narcosis and oxygen toxicity would make for quite a spectator sport!
Simos is bang on the money here - it's a very valid question to ask and probably what this whole thing boils down to. After all, if it's safe enough for record attempts, it's safe enough for competitions. Same with financial viability.
Simos is bang on the money here - it's a very valid question to ask and probably what this whole thing boils down to. After all, if it's safe enough for record attempts, it's safe enough for competitions. Same with financial viability.