sled diving within AIDA

[Walrus]

Combining both NLT’s with the other AIDA disciplines and calling it all “freediving” is in itself is a very strange concept. I don’t know of any other sport that combines both Machine powered and self powered disciplines under the same name.

Imagine if motor bike racing and cycling were both under the sport of “Two wheel racing”. They have time trials on the same course. Bob set’s a new time trial record with 34:25 in CWT (bicycle), then later James in NLT (motorbike) comes along and does it in 32:10. It goes out to the media and people read about Bob and James. Most people read it and think “geez not sure what NLT is but James is definitely the best at Two wheel racing”.

Apart from the huge safety issues involved with NLT, it does take a lot away from the athletic side of the sport. I’m not sure why No Limits is called “free” diving, you are diving with a lot of equipment most of the time including a scuba tank which is required to inflate the lift bag. At best I would call it machine powered breath hold diving.

Well done Will and AIDA NZ for putting forward a proposal for calling a special assembly. In the early stages of setting up an AIDA in Australia I tried to get rid of NLT and VWT. Not only for safety and the above reasons but then you also distance yourself from the high profile deaths that people will find with google in just a few seconds. It taints the rest of the sport and the competitors.

Cheers,
Wal

 

[ReefTroll]

I've no plans on ever getting on a sled, the ide scares the heck out of me, but in terms of all the conversation about it attracting interest, being extreme etc and whether or not it truly is sporting etc, can you imagine the difference and effect it would have if it were sponsered by Red Bull along with all their other insane extreme sports?

 

[chrismar]

Again, you'd have to run comps. You'd also have to avoid deaths - not even Red Bull is keen on associating with a bunch of high-profile fatalities on film.

 

[ReefTroll]

I don't think it'd be a good thing, just puts some of the "possible attention" into a bit of focus? It'd make it all the more insane I think, too much attention.

 

[sross]

Speaking of Red Bull- they are big time sponsors of Speed Skiing, one of the most injurious sports around; and yes, fatalities have occurred. Apparently without dampening the company's enthusiasm for sponsoring one of the craziest sports around. (Edit: I'm kind of wondering whether ski jumping might be nuttier- I've been by ski jumping ramps and seen guys do crazy-bad things to themselves. Have also seen guys do nasty forms of self-destruction in half pipes too, usually involving missing the rim)

Another aport where fatalities happen regularly, along with catastophic injuries, is Luge. The highest-profile death in recent news was of Georgian slider Nodar Kumaritashvili at the 2010 Olympics, on a track that had some flaws that officials repeatedly ignored warnings about. Shows how important it is for sport organizers to pay attention to equipment standards and listen to feedback from athletes.

As far as I can tell, there have been far more fatalities, and massive injuries, in luge than there have been in sled diving.

Anyways, some Financial Services companies seem to like sponsoring luge. World Financial Group is sponsoring the USA national team, and Fast Track Financial is sponsoring the Canadian national team. The casualties haven't deterred them from sponsoring.

Face it guys, there is always going to be a certain proportion of the population that loves the adrenaline rush and feeling of accomplishment that doing a really dangerous sport brings. There will also be an audience that likes following these sports, and I think people who only like the safer sports acting like a bunch of busybody nannies, telling them what they can and can't do, or watch, will just be destructive in the end, leading to unorganized, dangerous stunts (kind of like the early days of sled diving?)


C'mon AIDA: suck it up!

1. Get used to the fact that freediving includes some extreme disciplines
2. Hold a referrendum to determine, once and for all whether the membership supports organizing & regulating sled diving events, or whether they want to kick their sled diving sisters & brothers out to fend for themselves, or to try to find another organizing body.
3. If the membership votes to keep sled diving in, stop nattering about the danger, the supposed "impurity" of the discipline, &tc.- Get onside and support them in their efforts to make sled diving a great sport!
4. Get to work seeing if you have the depth of resources among the membership to develop the sport and regulate it properly. If not, then it's time to go back to the drawing board, but not until then.

 

[sross]

Combining both NLT’s with the other AIDA disciplines and calling it all “freediving” is in itself is a very strange concept. I don’t know of any other sport that combines both Machine powered and self powered disciplines under the same name.

Hi Walrus,

Actually there is a very well known sport that combines "machine Powered" and "self Powered" disciplines within one organizing body.

The International Ski Federation (FIS) includes both. In fact the analogies with freediving are striking.

In the various Dynamic events with fins, freedivers strap flat, carbon-fibre thingies onto their feet, and propel themselves down & up in the water under their own power. In the Cross Country Ski disciplines skiers strap flat, carbon fibre thingies on their feet and propel themselves up & down hills under their own power.

In Sled Diving freedivers use gravity to take them down very fast, then use the mechanical force of buoyancy to pull them back up again. In Alpine Skiing, skiers use the mechanical force of a motorized cable pulling seats to take them up, then they use gravity to take themselves down the hill very fast.

Same diff :friday

Apart from the huge safety issues involved with NLT, it does take a lot away from the athletic side of the sport.

The same purist debate happens withing the sport of skiing. X-Country ski fans claim it's the most athletic because of the huge amount of aerobic training they have to do (national team cross country skiers, BTW, have the highest average VO2max values ever measured in humans, higher even than bicycle racers). They also say their sport is the "purest" because they don't use mechanical assistance.

Alpine ski fans retort that you can't ignore the strength they have to develop, and the courage it takes to participate in the sport, even though it's very equipment-dependent and motors provide the power up the hill.

Not only for safety and the above reasons but then you also distance yourself from the high profile deaths that people will find with google in just a few seconds. It taints the rest of the sport and the competitors.

Taints it for some, not for others. FWIW, in spite of the deaths and massive injuries that happen every year, Alpine Skiing has the 3rd biggest viewing audience of the winter sports, after Hockey & Figure Skating. The fans don't have to use Google to find out about them either, they've seen them happen in real time, during live broadcasts- and don't get me started about the injuries & deaths in hockey, especially in the amateur leagues . . .

 

[Walrus]

Hi Sross,
with Alpine skiing the performance ends when you are at the bottom of the hill, how you get back up is irrelevant, you could walk up if you wanted to. As far as fatalities are concerned you need to look at the number of people competing vs the number of deaths. The people doing serious NLT's dives would probably have a worse fatality rate then base jumping. As far as marketing it as an extreme sport it would have to be the most boring thing you could possibly watch. It's just someone doing a static going up & then down, you don't even need to grab a tag, Alpine skiing is exciting visually. As pointed out several times before there is no breath hold skill required for NLT's diving. So in a NLT's comp you wouldn't even have blackout's except in the case of equipment failure. 100m without fins is far more "extreme" then a sit down and ride along dive to 200m and back without having to do anything apart from equalise. :t

Cheers,
Wal

 

[mystiach]

Recently, world class British paraglider pilot Mark Hayman resigned from the sport because he felt that safety was being sacrificed for performance, and the airsports organisation, as well as its athletes, had a responsibility to change the direction the sport was heading in. You can read his whole letter here, and his prediction of incidents at the upcoming World Championships turned out to be exactly and tragically correct. One of the points (among many striking parallels) Hayman raised was that even experienced pilots were having serious accidents: "I’ve never understood the desire to take a dangerous sport and then fly gliders that increase rather than mitigate that risk... and I dislike the tendency to always try to find a reason for those accidents anywhere other than the obvious – the equipment being flown." Or, maybe for freediving, the use of a sled.

I don’t think Redbull has a ‘fatality rate’ selection criteria for their sports – they sponsor hanggliding, which I think is much more akin to freediving than skiing is. Skiing is popular and the public well informed, whereas both hanggliding and freediving are misunderstood: perceived high risk and adrenaline but most disciplines are absolutely not.

In fact, hanggliding went through a similar thing to what freediving is facing now a number of years ago. The international HG body initially oversaw all hanggliding events: XC competitions (most comp pilots in this category) as well as aerobatics. However, the disproportionate number of serious accidents and deaths in aerobatics (many) as opposed to XC events (very few) was causing problems for the sport - eventually, they stopped sanctioning aerobatics. Aero comps still run for the small percent who want them, and they are made as safe as possible (just like NLTs), but they're dangerous: eg in the last, out of two dozen pilots there was one fatality and one permanent injury. For the majority of pilots competing and for the organisers, that the main organisation no longer ratifies the high-risk activity has only been positive. More comps, easier logistics, and I’m certain, less hassle and expense with insurance!

As for the importance of keeping sleds in AIDA for historical reasons... well, when has the argument ‘but it’s tradition’ ever been beneficial in ANY field? The original ideal behind NLTs had nothing to do with a sled – it was to do with discovering human potential. Without detracting from any past achievements, from what we now know about freediving, it seems that the self-powered disciplines are actually truer to that ideal.

There is considerable stigma associated with freediving (apparently, I have a ‘death wish’, who knew?) and it is due to the "high profile deaths people can find on google in just a few seconds". Some people might enjoy that daredevil image – however, it's not only false, but detrimental to anyone who wishes to be taken seriously as an athlete, and consequentially the sport.

 

[sross]

Recently, world class British paraglider pilot Mark Hayman resigned from the sport because he felt that safety was being sacrificed for performance, and the airsports organisation, as well as its athletes, had a responsibility to change the direction the sport was heading in. You can read his whole letter here, and his prediction of incidents at the upcoming World Championships turned out to be exactly and tragically correct. One of the points (among many striking parallels) Hayman raised was that even experienced pilots were having serious accidents: "I’ve never understood the desire to take a dangerous sport and then fly gliders that increase rather than mitigate that risk... and I dislike the tendency to always try to find a reason for those accidents anywhere other than the obvious – the equipment being flown."

I have to say I'm onside with Mark Hayman. I appreciate when someone has the courage and common sense to stand up and say that a sport is going in the wrong direction.

A similar type of situation had been brewing in the sport of Luge in the build-up to the 2010 Olympics. Everybody kind of washed their hands of responsibility for saying "no" during the site selection & design process that would lead to the very dangerous track at Whistler in British Columbia, even though there were repeated indications that a number of factors were going to lead to the track being too extreme.

Speed and Commerce Skewed Luge Track's Design - WSJ.com

Then once the track was completed and athletes started using it they made comments to the officials repeatedly, in writing and verbally, about the dangers.

Alum outraged at response to luger

Problem is, that was the only track they had, and the Olympics must go on, after all. Who wants to look 'wimpy' by slowing a track down? It's really hard to take a stand once things have gone that far. Of course Kumaritashvili's death forced their hand, and they did what should have been done long before:

2010 Vancouver Olympics: Luge track adds wooden wall, adjusted curves - ESPN

Is there a lesson in all this for another sled sport, sled diving? I think there is.

Sled diving is going to continue to grow as a sport, and I think it will find an organizing body, whether that body ends up being AIDA or some other organization.

Whoever ends up participating as equipment designers and in in official sanctioning capacities for sled diving, though, please remember the lugers and the paragliders, and have the courage to stand up for safety sooner rather than later.

 

[Unclejake]

Sled diving is going to continue to grow as a sport ..........Whoever ends up participating as equipment designers and in in official sanctioning capacities for sled diving, though, please remember the lugers and the paragliders

I really like your thinking Sross, but it is hard for me to imagine a VWT sled being the cause of a death,. NLTs is a bit different though.

The hard thing with NLT is you need a foolproof lift system that needs to be operated by a diver who is likely to become incapacitated to some degree.

If we make the lift baseplate triggered: The diver needs to get to the plate and then remember to hold on to the lift (we can't lanyard him/her to the lift as that is too dangerous).

If we make the lift 'normally inflated': (i.e. the diver needs to actively prevent the lift from deploying all the way down) Then we still need the diver to remember to let go of the lever when he wants to return, and to hold onto the lift. I imagine Walrus will tell us that this is not quite as simple as it sounds.

Additionally: There is always risk that the lift will fail to deploy and rise. No engineer can 100% guarantee the lift at depth and in current and with who knows what entrapments floating past the descent line.

The risk in WVT must, surely, be primarily narcosis or DCS (but I am no medic)

 

[Rik]

There is an impression that sled diving is dangerous and even suicidal. However, if we look to the few accidents that have been documented, we might see something completely different. The majority of the accidents can be contributed to negligence or due failing to understand laws of physics, including the risk of nitrogen narcosis. A sled related accident doesn’t catch us by surprise like a sudden gush of wind or as an thunderstorm that floods an cave filled with surprised cavers. Accidents in Freediving and sled diving are often avoidable.

Even the equipment shouldn’t be the problem at all. Most sleds aren’t that complicated in design compared with an rebreather. And still a lot of people dive and die with an rebreather compared with freediving. No-one is calling rebreather divers suicidal. Probably because they are all educated and try their best to minimize the risk involved with their sport.

So you might wonder, if the sled isn’t the problem, what is? Well, there is the big issue on how knowledge is transferred within the freediving society. It is easier to build an sled compared with finding reliable information how to use it in an safe manner and what preventive precautions are required to use it. Even if the sled diving disciplines would be banned, you would still need this knowledge to keep diving safe for those who want to use the sled recreationally or as an aid in depth training.

And why wouldn’t AIDA help to develop this knowledge? Isn’t AIDA the “International Organisation for the Development of Freediving”? Is the not their responsibility to address this problem and “Develop” at least the safety requirements for this discipline?

And if it isn’t, is there a future for AIDA at all?

If AIDA would ban the sled disciplines, it might just be the first step to the dissolution of the organization. CMAS would have more disciplines, and could be able attract more freedivers, including those who want to persue sled diving. There are already several countries where CMAS freediving is larger in number compared with AIDA.

And compared with SSI, AIDA would have currently no chance to survive as an (commercial)diving certification agency.

If AIDA is to survive the next ten years, it should invest in knowledge, and should be able to attract both competitive as recreational divers from any kind of discipline. It should welcoming the nature loving snorkeler and the adrenaline seeking deep divers. Only by keeping both of them, AIDA would have a chance to be able to exist as the recognized organization as it is today.

 

[efattah]

If a new safety standard is developed for no-limits, then the main points would have to be:

1. Lift device must not be inflatable. It must be buoyant and incompressible, such as what Herbert used (high density foam covered with laminate or hard cylinder)

2. Lift device activation must not require athlete's action, unless a scuba diver is on the bottom. Preferably a dead-man switch causes automatic detachment from the descent weight and automatic ascent with the incompressible lift device.

3. Diver MUST (100%) wear fluid goggles or a vision device. Audrey used fluid goggles in her warm up but not on the record. Loic did not use goggles. Both were totally blind when the problem happened. Loic could have realized the sled was entangled and started ascent from 80m on his own, but he had no way to know.

 

[mystiach]

Simos gave an excellent reply to the question of other organisations in post #155.

It should welcoming the nature loving snorkeler and the adrenaline seeking deep divers.

I don't think it is possible for an organisation to appeal to every demographic. Attracting the thrill-seekers emphasises the 'stunt' side, and detracts from the 'athletic' side. However, if the sport is allowed to grow away from that extreme label, perhaps many people who would not have otherwise considered freediving will give it a go. It's speculation on both sides of the argument. In any case, I doubt it would spell the demise of the sport - removing aerobatics was the best thing that happened to hanggliding. It's like saying all wrestling is wrestling, so why aren't olympic wrestling, WWF and caged fights not all under the same organisation? Along with under ice, are you proposing we include the PFI F3 races, the longest dolpin tow, 02 breathholds etc under AIDA? I think stunts and spectacles are for Guinness, not for AIDA.

The majority of the accidents can be contributed to negligence or due failing to understand laws of physics, including the risk of nitrogen narcosis

In regards to sled safety, Hayman's comment also applies: "In the parallel universe that the [OCWG] exist in all accidents seem to be attributed to insufficient pilot training whereas I know, living in the real world, that every time I attach an uncertified two-line glider to my body I am increasing my risk substantially of having an accident over flying a certified wing." Just as I know by getting on a sled, I would be increasing my risk of having an accident.

FIA/CIVL cancelled the paragliding WCs after the pilot fatalities and have announced that they will be running a serial class event next year. In hindsight it would not have been a bad thing if they had been "busybody nannies" and deemed open class an unacceptable risk prior to the event.

 

[Simos]

The first question at hand to answer is not whether AIDA should drop sled-diving or not but what could AIDA realistically do to make NLT safe, promote it properly as a discipline and educate on it. Unless this question is debated, discussed and more clarity on what can be done (or cannot be done) it is very difficult to decide whether it should be dropped or not.

I certainly understand Will's points (and share the concern for sure) but I think the current statistics on fatalities etc should only be used to indicate the point that there is something 'broken' with the current situation with NLT that needs fixing, but not HOW this should be fixed (e.g. we could fix it by dropping NLT or by making it safe etc)

The only way to make a proper, informed decision is to first discuss what AIDA could do about NLT and decide if we're happy with that as an outcome to work towards.

I have a feeling too that sled diving will become more popular regardless of AIDA - more centres are offering it and I think many freedivers will be at some point be exposed to a sled.

Personally as the situation stands and from the little I've seen, I would not get on a sled to go to a depth I wasn't able to come up from myself if the lift device did not inflate unless I was really heavily involved in designing and testing the sled.

The reason is because I don't have enough experience/knowledge to inspect the sled and judge for myself and I know that there are no standards for making sleds, nor any inspection for safety. The example of re-breathers and other complicated equipment is not a good one in my opinion - generally whenever there is a device that can be used by anyone, is life-critical (if it fails) and not possible to assess whether it's safe or not by the person using it because of the complexity or the experience needed there are standards, testing and so on. (e.g. an aeroplane).

Even bungee jumping needs some licence before you can set it up and be allowed to have people pay to jump (at least in some countries if I'm not mistaken) so I don't see why sled diving should be any different. (apologies if there is a licence needed in some countries, if that's the cases I would be quite interested to see what checks are made before granting this licence).

 

[Simos]

Just to clarify: the reason I mentioned the issue with license to operate sleds and charge etc for them is that I think that is one of the things that is broken and that is damaging to freediving.

IF for example there was a requirement for anyone operating a sled in any commercial capacity to be qualified/approved by AIDA (not just be an AIDA instructor but have a proper qualification/licence for sled diving) then any accidents that happen within these facilities could be properly investigated and understood to make things safer and any accidents occurring as a result of individual attempts outside qualified facilities would not be very damaging to freediving.

Let's take skydiving as an example - if I don't have a license, do not go with a licensed company and decide to jump off the back of my mate's plane and then have an accident, while it will add something to the perception of skydiving being dangerous, most people's reaction will definitely change as soon as they find out that I was someone who was not licensed and decided to just try it myself.

Same with scuba diving - if I had an accident, it would be perceived very differently if I had no qualification/training and just stole my brother's scuba gear one day and went for a dive on my own.

Don't know if this makes sense but I think there will be more and more accidents with sled diving as it becomes more popular - I already see a lot of the people I did my AIDA courses with (i.e. no sled education whatsoever) going abroad and trying sled diving etc, coming back and being all excited about going deep etc but in reality, they have no idea what the actual level of risk they are taking is. They of course all say that they are 'impressed by the set up' and while it's true, I even catch myself recommending some of the places without having no idea whether they are safe or not etc.

I don't think whoever operating them is to blame here, at the end of the day they are probably a lot safer than what an individual attempt at sled diving would be and essentially they are trying to organise sled dives and make them safe which basically should have been AIDA's responsibility in the first place.

Just some thoughts

 

[Kars]

If a new safety standard is developed for no-limits, then the main points would have to be:

1. Lift device must not be inflatable. It must be buoyant and incompressible, such as what Herbert used (high density foam covered with laminate or hard cylinder)

2. Lift device activation must not require athlete's action, unless a scuba diver is on the bottom. Preferably a dead-man switch causes automatic detachment from the descent weight and automatic ascent with the incompressible lift device.

3. Diver MUST (100%) wear fluid goggles or a vision device. Audrey used fluid goggles in her warm up but not on the record. Loic did not use goggles. Both were totally blind when the problem happened. Loic could have realized the sled was entangled and started ascent from 80m on his own, but he had no way to know.

I like all the points made, especially the fluid goggles point made.

I've been doing some sketching and I think it can be done without too much cost. As of the preliminary sketches I've included all of the Eric's features resulting in the following retrieval systems: Float, Freediver Rescue Vest, Couter Weight, bi-fins. (even allowing a lanyard)

I'm all in favour of the designers here Developing a Safe, simple, practical and affordable sled, putting the D back in AIDA.

 

[Will]

During a VWT record attempt yesterday at the 'Only One' center a sled-diver blacked out at 35-40 mtrs. We're told it took 4:30 of CPR to bring her back to consciousness.

The sled-diving facilities in Santorini and Sharm el Sheikh are regarded as the most advanced and experienced in the world. They both satisfy all AIDA regulations. In the last five weeks they have in turn been involved in one fatal and one near-fatal incident.
To those who claim VWT is the safer cousin to NLT, the statistic that of the last three world record attempts, two have ended in ~40m blackouts requiring intensive CPR is unequivocal - especially when you take into account that in all CWT/CNF/FIM diving record attempts (numbering hundreds or thousands) there has NEVER been a blackout that deep.

The consensus of the AIDA International committee that conducted an investigation into the June fatality was that the current guidelines are basically adequate (the only other result of the investigation was various items of conjecture regarding the cause of death). I don't think it's presumptive to assume that in light of yet another sled-related incident this view is erroneous and needs to be re-addressed immediately, if not by the appointed committee then by the AIDA assembly itself.

Before, there were several doubts to the idea of a referendum on the cessation of AIDA's officiation of sled-diving.

a) Okay, NLT may be dangerous, but VWT isn't really that risky.
b) There have been training fatalities (with AIDA-approved equipment) but so far no incidents in official AIDA record attempts.
c) Why the rush? Can't we wait until the results of the investigation into the June fatality are released?​

All three of these doubts are answered by the latest incident, which was (a) in VWT, (b) in an AIDA world record attempt, and (c) had been announced for mid-July, so could have been avoided with the swift action that was called for in the proposal.

So can we have that referendum now please?

 

[Mullins]

Shyte, hope Anna's ok. She was attempting 130???

 

[ReefTroll]

So can we have that referendum now please?

I think given the number of points and ideas being thrown around here that a referendum IS needed. If it wasn't necessary or wanted this thread would be empty. It clearly shows there is much to discuss.

 

[chrismar]

I think given the number of points and ideas being thrown around here that a referendum IS needed. If it wasn't necessary or wanted this thread would be empty. It clearly shows there is much to discuss.

I believe your national AIDA disagrees.

Anna said on Facebook that she is okay, but things didn't quite go to plan. I'm glad she's still with us.