Some doubts about apnea trainning

[ashirk]

Hey IanCaio sounds like you make some good progress. I started working with the 1-breath CO2 tables also, but maybe I'm a little too conservative. Right now I'm at 1:10 and slowly trying to ramp up. I did my last set a couple days ago without too much difficulty, except a couple were pretty uncomfortable towards the end.

So far I have not really felt any heat in my face while I'm doing these exercises, but in the past I was working with Buteyko breathing and noticed a warm sensation as I did the exercises. I would also notice my ears popping and nasal passages would open up as the CO2 levels would rise in my body. For some reason though I don't really notice those reactions with these CO2 tables.

 

[IanCaio]

Hey Ashirk,

I'm happy with the progress since the first day of this year, but I'm a little stuck at the 1'50s table for a while now. I think if I increase time I might not be able to finish it. Often the last 2 breath holds are quite struggling to complete, specially if I don't get my relaxing sorted out since the beginning. However I don't want to worry about increasing it that much, because I found out that when you think about increasing your time too hard you get a little stressed and anxious during the drill and this actually have the opposite effect on your breath holding (tables get harder). At least that's what I think happened to me in a short period.

I do the 1-breath CO2 tables once in a while, but not that often. I think since I do the tables mostly before going to bed, I like to get to a CO2 build up progressively. And for me the 1-breath CO2 tables are sometimes a kick in the nuts . The CO2 builds up really quickly, and I can't figure out my time yet. I've been able to finish 8 cycles of 1 minute breath holds and then, when I tried again, I failed after finishing 6th cycle. I'm still figuring them out, but I want to do them more often later on, since I think they will help me increase my residual apnea time (which is something I want to improve aswell). By the way, I think you're doing good with a 1'10s 1-breath CO2 table! Seems like a good time for me

This heating in the face happens usually in the end of my CO2 tables, when I'm struggling too much, along with my abdomen getting tight, which is not a contraction per say, but I start making my abdomen tight for some reason. I find it comforting, but at the same time seems like something I should avoid to save some oxygen.

 

[growingupninja]

For building CO2 tolerance you will get there much faster if you add an element of light exertion to the tables--something that without an apnea component gets your HR up to about 50% of max for beginners. When combined with apnea intervals it is normal for the HR to fluctuate. More advanced divers can work at a higher intensity.

It is less mentally exhausting but every bit as beneficial to do lower intensity but longer duration CO2 exercises, say a 30 min session a few times a week. Once you get to a certain place with hypoxic cardio, static holds become much easier and a welcome relief from the tyranny of a timed interval and repeated workload.

This will also make you a much stronger diver in real ocean conditions, i.e. the classic 'breathing up in a current'.

 

[Kray]

I started to do it every day in the morning to trigger the poo instead of using coffee, by not pushing my limit but a quick and soothing config. I can do maybe 75 secs of one breath FRC CO2 table, but that would be too exhaustive. It depends though, on a night with a bad sleep, contraction comes quick for 45 sec setting, but on a good day I have to ramp it up to 60 to get the effect.

 

[IanCaio]

Growingupninja,

You mean making some aerobic exercise to heat up before doing the CO2 tables? That's something I still haven't tried, and probably would have to start with a lower time (I think the exercise will end up building CO2 earlier). So far I'm doing aerobic training and apnea on distinct days.

Kray,

Never heard of CO2 tables making you want to poop, maybe I'll try it when I'm constipated
I don't know if I understanded it, you mean you can make several cycles of 75 seconds one breath residual volume breath-holds? That sounds really good! I can't do that with a full volume breath-hold, who says with a residual volume.

No training today, had to travel around 300 miles to start moving, I don't think I ever had an allergic reaction, and I'm not even sure if it's one, but I got a little sick. Big head ache, runny nose, not to say that I didn't sleep enough. I hate to finish a day without any sort of training though..

 

[growingupninja]

@ianciao
No, do light aerobic exercise and CO2 table simultaneously. You will need to adjust the table since it will be less than what you can do static.

 

[ashirk]

@growingupninja,
I've been doing apnea walks in addition to static breath holds at home. Is that similar to light aerobic exercise? Seems like it might but when I do it I don't think my heart rate changes much. I do notice significantly more difficulty even on a slight uphill grade as I'm walking, so that's pretty challenging.

My apnea walks and static CO2 tables are structured differently. For example one apnea walk might be:
- 10 min --> 10 step inhale | 4 step apnea | 20 step exhale | 4 step apnea
- 10 min --> 20 step normal ventilation | increasing steps apnea
- 10 min --> max steps apnea

 

[growingupninja]

@growingupninja,
I've been doing apnea walks in addition to static breath holds at home. Is that similar to light aerobic exercise? Seems like it might but when I do it I don't think my heart rate changes much. I do notice significantly more difficulty even on a slight uphill grade as I'm walking, so that's pretty challenging.

My apnea walks and static CO2 tables are structured differently. For example one apnea walk might be:
- 10 min --> 10 step inhale | 4 step apnea | 20 step exhale | 4 step apnea
- 10 min --> 20 step normal ventilation | increasing steps apnea
- 10 min --> max steps apnea

Yes, apnea walk is light aerobic. As you become more accustomed to the exercise you can ratchet it up by some combination of increased exercise intensity, longer hold, and less rest period.

HR is very individual but if you seeing little or no change the exercise is possibly too easy. All your training can be more effective if you monitor HR and blood oxygen. Typically when I am doing steady state cardio with apnea intervals I work at a pace which breathing normally would be about 60% - 70% of my max HR. My pulse will vary from about 95 BPM to 160 BPM with apnea though, lowest and steadily falling at the end of holds (corresponds to deep contractions), then spiking and highest immediately after holds as I am recovering.

Aggressive apnea training is not for everyone, just as competitive freediving is not for everyone. It can be a lot of stress on the heart and should be avoided by those with preexisting conditions and new divers need to take it slow.

 

[IanCaio]

Hey guys,

I haven't yet added apnea walks to my drills, just CO2 statics tables and 1-breath/1-hold CO2 drills (not very often though). Since I'm still on the second month of training, I'm still building my habits and adjusting training schedule.

Yesterday I aborted a CO2 table (1:50min holds) that I did many times before in the middle, because I was feeling the CO2 effects way earlier for some reason (not sure if bad relaxation, the environment heat). It was frustrating because I hate stopping a drill in the middle, specially one I've done before. One part of me just wanted to take it further, but I ended up deciding to do the table again in a moment I was willing to struggle more (not before going to sleep).
So today I tried it again. It felt harder than usual again, not as hard as yesterday I think, but I felt the CO2 effects earlier than on previous times. As soon as I realized this, keeping bad thoughts out of my head was hard, things like "damn, if I'm feeling this already, what will it be like further in the table?". I managed to finish the table, but it was a real struggle, specially at the end. I guess that's the whole point of the CO2 table, but it's weird that it got so harder than before.
As growingupninja said, apnea training (specially aggressive, which is not even my case) can be really stressful. CO2 tables can put you in a really discomfortable position, stress your body. Maybe doing them before sleep isn't the best option, I've to commit for real.

Not sure if I should be proud I finished the table today, or frustrated that it got so harder than usual.

 

[IanCaio]

Hey guys, been gone for a while. Went to the coast, surfed a bit, and next week I'm about to start working on the docks.
Lots of things going on my head, mostly about those plans of going back to the coast, and if it will all work out. Trying to be positive about it all!

Today I made two heart exams, an echocardiogram and an ergometric stress test. I'll have the results by tomorrow, but I think it was a good idea to make a check up since I'm going back to activity.

About the CO2 tables, I guess I did the last one on the 6th, and it was easier than the last one I posted here (closer to how it used to be). I don't know why this inconsistency happened and why those few were so harder, but maybe it's just something about the day, being stressed or not being completely relaxed before the table.

 

[IanCaio]

Hey all,

Been missing for a while, I started on my new job, moved to the coast, really happy with this change!
My computer isn't working (I almost blew it up forgetting the voltage here is higher!) so I'm posting from my cellphone.

I been keeping my dry statics CO2 tables, either the longer one, the 8 cycles of 1-breath/1-hold or both. I do feel a little stuck, I can't feel confident to increase my times, and I'm not sure if it's just part of the process (CO2 tolerance being a slow acquired skill) or if I'm just "afraid" of getting away from my comfort zone, which isn't actually so comfortable.
I'm thinking about trying the 8 cycles with 1:10 min holds (been doing 1min so far, today was a little easier than usual). My long CO2 table is 1:50min, so I can risk 2min maybe. I'm thinking it should be in a day I have some extra time for preparation (relaxing before the drill).

Well, that's my update so far!
Peace

 

[ashirk]

Hey IanCaio good to hear you're sticking with the tables. I've also been pretty busy with stuff but have been pretty good at working the tables too. Honestly I'm kind of new to it too so not sure how quickly one can expect to progress with their breath-hold times. What I've been doing is if the tables are pretty easy and I don't feel much resistance on any of the sets then I try to bump it up by another 15 seconds. Sometimes I'll just try to push it up just to see how it feels and it I don't make it then that's ok, I just move back to the original tables.

Are you trying other types of apnea training? If not maybe that is something you can crank into your routine. @growingupninja has some interesting information in this thread about doing apnea training at elevated heart rate.

 

[ashirk]

HR is very individual but if you seeing little or no change the exercise is possibly too easy. All your training can be more effective if you monitor HR and blood oxygen. Typically when I am doing steady state cardio with apnea intervals I work at a pace which breathing normally would be about 60% - 70% of my max HR. My pulse will vary from about 95 BPM to 160 BPM with apnea though, lowest and steadily falling at the end of holds (corresponds to deep contractions), then spiking and highest immediately after holds as I am recovering.

So this past week I tried something different. I did my same basic "apnea walk" routine, but this time I did it on a stationary bike. Basically I get my heart rate up, in this case about 120 BPM and then start the sets. That's pretty crazy you're getting up to 160BPM, that seems really high. What are you doing for the exercise, are you running or doing sprints? In the past when training for triathons I would do flat out sprints and it was really hard to get my heart up to 160BPM, can't imagine doing that AND holding my breath as well

The only thing about the stationary bike is that I'm doing it at my local gym, and it feels a bit weird doing a cardio workout and holding my breath, I'm wondering if I'm getting strange looks or something.

 

[J Campbell]

Wear your freedive outfit while you ride the exercise bike, then they will understand why you are holding your breath

 

[IanCaio]

So far I was sticking with dry statics, wasn't doing any apnea walks or raising my HR before holds.
I think it'd be nice though, because I feel my breath-hold threshold gets really lower when my HR is up. Getting lower times is normal I guess, but I wonder if it isn't getting much lower, because I'm not used to training on those conditions. I think I'll try starting with apnea walks on the sand.

BTW, I tried 8 cycles with 1:10 minutes. I got it done, it was quite harder than usual. With 1 minute I'd feel the effects of CO2 starting at the 4th cycle usually, on this one it started on the 3rd. One weird thing I felt on the last two cycles: for a few moments I felt a little disattachment from the moment, can't explain it really well, and I even forgot a little of the urge to breath. It wasn't anything major though, it was just really calm. I'm not sure if it was just a thing from the moment or some starting effect of hypoxy. I didn't see any black marks or felt dizzyness, don't think I was about to pass out, specially with this hold time

PS: Seeing a guy with a diving suit on a gym would definatly make it less boring than it is

 

[ashirk]

Yeah that's a good idea, if I'm going to freak people out then might as well get it done right

Actually I tried it again today; I like the change of pace. @IanCaio maybe give that a shot, shake it up a little. Sometimes if you plateau on something it's helpful to work on something else a bit. I suspect if you try cardio and elevated heart rate while doing apnea sets it may result in improvements. My breath-holds definitely are a lot lower than when I'm sitting relaxed, but then again I'm not really doing CO2 tables while in cardio, I'm doing a different kind of apnea set, for example:

a. Continuous breath with pause for 20 minutes (these numbers are just examples)
5 steps in breath | 2 steps apnea | 10 steps exhale | 2 steps apnea

Note what's important here is the ratio, that is the inhale is 1/2 as long as the exhale, and the apnea (pause) is about 1/2 as long as the inhale.

b. Max steps apnea
max steps apnea | full recovery | max steps apnea | full recovery .....

something like this.

 

[IanCaio]

I'll probably have to fix my surfboard this week, so I'll try to focus on my apnea training and maybe some cardio. I'll try your apnea walk routine at the beach (soft sand seems less bad to blackout on!) and see what my performance will be. I think it will be lame at first, but I'll work on it.

I tried the 8 cycles again with 1:10min and failed twice, yesterday I got up to the end of the 6th cycle and aborted. Feels really frustrating to not be able to finish a table you already did once. It fills my head with thoughts like "you're giving up too soon" or "how will you raise your times if you're not pushing it far enough?". Have to keep working on it, but right now I can't imagine what struggle it is to do it with 1:40min holds like one of the guys here do!

By the way, I mentioned about a website talking about what are the feelings during a 5:30min static hold, and I accidentaly found it yesterday!
Here's the link:
www.impulseadventure.com/freedive/

He talks about some hypoxic euphoria near the end of the hold, I can't wait to be able to get there, because for now I can only get until the nasty feelings part of the hold!